[Game] Preseason Game 7: Kings at Jazz, 9 PM 10/21/10
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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Yes I am serious. I'm not saying that Tyreke is a scrub or anything like that man. What I'm saying is we all have this expectations that Tyreke is one of the best guards in the NBA already, and I'm saying that as one of the best guards he should not have been struggling as much as he did against the particular backcourt that the Jazz had on the floor. I even went on to acknowledge that it was an off game. Perhaps I phrased my initial post rather haphazardly, but don't tell me you didn't expect Tyreke to dominate the matchup yourself. Hell, last season we expected him to dominate most matchups. So to clarify, I was venting my frustration that Tyreke seemed to be having an off night against what I would consider to be a backcourt of scrubs that he should easily dominate.
I'm deeply hurt that you'd consider me a troll.
I'm deeply hurt that you'd consider me a troll.
Folks I'm probably wasting my breath here, but I'll try anyway. Question! Does anyone think that Westphal did his best to win this game? Do you even think it entered his mind? How many different lineups did he use during the game? If he really cared about winning the game don't you think he would have used both Casspi and Cisco? Can we all agree that he didn't give a tinkers damm whether we won or not?
This was his last chance to see what certain combinations could do without the result being a penalty. This was also a chance to see how Whiteside played with different combinations. We didn't play Casspi or Cisco. We didn't have Dalembert. So for the most part we had a very young team. Some with no NBA experience at all, going up against very good vetrean players that have played together for quite a while. Did any of you think this was just going to happen overnight? That Westphal was just going to wave his magic wand and Wa La, were a championship team. If thats what you thought, then you know nothing about basketball.
Building a good basketball team isn't instant gratification. But if your patient and you have the talent, you'll be rewarded. Personally I can't believe that so many people are wringing their hands over a stupid Pre-season game. How about we wait for the real thing before deciding to trade everyone on the team. I'm glad I'm heading for Mulege tomorrow so I don't have to read anymore of this nonsense.
This was his last chance to see what certain combinations could do without the result being a penalty. This was also a chance to see how Whiteside played with different combinations. We didn't play Casspi or Cisco. We didn't have Dalembert. So for the most part we had a very young team. Some with no NBA experience at all, going up against very good vetrean players that have played together for quite a while. Did any of you think this was just going to happen overnight? That Westphal was just going to wave his magic wand and Wa La, were a championship team. If thats what you thought, then you know nothing about basketball.
Building a good basketball team isn't instant gratification. But if your patient and you have the talent, you'll be rewarded. Personally I can't believe that so many people are wringing their hands over a stupid Pre-season game. How about we wait for the real thing before deciding to trade everyone on the team. I'm glad I'm heading for Mulege tomorrow so I don't have to read anymore of this nonsense.
This right here sums up the whole thing.
Do we really want Tyreke with all his ankle woes going hard as he does in a preseason game? Hard drives, akward landings, etc. putting his body at risk? Deron Williams didn't even play I wouldn't of minded if Reke didn't either. We all can see that Beno and Reke have chemistry brewing they are clearly ready to get going for real. Most of the guys are ready in my eyes, except one glaring guy and we all know who that is without calling anybody out.
This was a meaningless somewhat entertaining game where we got a glimpse at our new great shot blocking presence, let's start worrying for real on Weds
Do we really want Tyreke with all his ankle woes going hard as he does in a preseason game? Hard drives, akward landings, etc. putting his body at risk? Deron Williams didn't even play I wouldn't of minded if Reke didn't either. We all can see that Beno and Reke have chemistry brewing they are clearly ready to get going for real. Most of the guys are ready in my eyes, except one glaring guy and we all know who that is without calling anybody out.
This was a meaningless somewhat entertaining game where we got a glimpse at our new great shot blocking presence, let's start worrying for real on Weds
Hey, well we treat every Kings game as a game we'd like to win, so sue us. I have no beef with Westphal's rotations and stuff like that. What I do have a problem with is the level of aggressiveness and hustle that I saw on the court, which frankly to me seemed very low. Now, I do realise this is preseason and I certainly don't want our guys to get hurt in a hustle play or anything of that sort. But forgive me then, for wanting to see a little more out of our guys when it's the first time I'm watching our actual team play against another NBA team in 6 months. I know for a fact that these preseason games are not indicative of the success that our team will have once the regular season starts, but I do think certain things can be learnt from preseason games. For example, there was quite a bit of miscommunication on pick and rolls, guys often fumbling passes etc. Seeing as these should be your basic offensive sets, it makes me wonder why they weren't executed better after all the practices. At the same time, I was very pleased to see Beno benefiting from Tyreke's drive and kicks, and that definitely looked better than it did last season.
You are right in implying that the preseason doesn't matter, because well, it doesn't. But I don't think that should excuse our team from being held accountable to executing basic plays well - something that more likely that not will be a fair reflection of how the team would fair in the regular season. What you said about expecting it all to happen overnight is very true though, and I admit to perhaps having too high expectations for such a team. I however, believe that the team IS capable of much much more, even in their youth and despite their inexperience. So I certainly hope that they bring their A games once the season starts.
You are right in implying that the preseason doesn't matter, because well, it doesn't. But I don't think that should excuse our team from being held accountable to executing basic plays well - something that more likely that not will be a fair reflection of how the team would fair in the regular season. What you said about expecting it all to happen overnight is very true though, and I admit to perhaps having too high expectations for such a team. I however, believe that the team IS capable of much much more, even in their youth and despite their inexperience. So I certainly hope that they bring their A games once the season starts.
While I completely agree with you, the lack of logic in this thread is disturbing. People do realize these guys are only a few months older than they were at the end of last season right? You don't go from 25 wins to a team ready to contend before training camp is even over.
Anyone wh has been a fan of this team over the year witnessed the ups and downs along with the gradual improvement from 98-03, when we went from being a team on the outside to a team ready to contend. So where the hell are all these fans popping up from? Have they ever watched or undertood the NBA game before?
Anyone wh has been a fan of this team over the year witnessed the ups and downs along with the gradual improvement from 98-03, when we went from being a team on the outside to a team ready to contend. So where the hell are all these fans popping up from? Have they ever watched or undertood the NBA game before?
Speaking of the change to 03 whatever else Rick Adelman was whenever the ball was in the 1/2 court there was always an offensive set that would lead to at least a partially open shot even if it was just a Webber hand-off to Bibby for a 3. We lost our crispness on the day he left and we need to clean up the offensive playbook in my humble opinion.
Seriously, freaking out over pre-season? How many years have you been watching the NBA? The team has a bunch of raw players with not a lot of experience. Remember how people were in awe of Kaman the other night? Go back to his first few years and the league and almost everyone thought he was a joke. Now he's an all star. Even Tyreke is still on the learning curve. Jeeze man relax and watch the players grow.
Not directing this at you personally, but this whole 'expect the team to suddenly be contenders' is an exaggeration of what some of the posters feel. No one here (that I can recall at least) is saying that they expect the team to suddenly be a contender. But you do have to expect improvement don't you, like you said 'gradual improvement'. I personally haven't really seen that improvement yet, and fine, I will attribute it to injuries and the fact that the games that the Kings have been playing are preseason games. Like I said earlier, I'd still like to see some sort of improvement, even in preseason. IMO the preseason should sort of 'foreshadow' the regular season to at least a certain extent.
I'm expecting our team to have many many things to work out, but these things should be getting less as time goes by. I don't think that saying the team played poorly in the preseason equates to not ever having watched an NBA game before. It's about the same as playing hard in a blowout. I'd still like my team to play hard in a blowout, see them execute well even though logically speaking it serves no purpose. Does that mean I don't understand the NBA game? geesh.
I'm expecting our team to have many many things to work out, but these things should be getting less as time goes by. I don't think that saying the team played poorly in the preseason equates to not ever having watched an NBA game before. It's about the same as playing hard in a blowout. I'd still like my team to play hard in a blowout, see them execute well even though logically speaking it serves no purpose. Does that mean I don't understand the NBA game? geesh.
Yea, but what you have to like is that PW has a LOT more to tinker with. I think once PW gets a rotation set and gets his play sets in, this team is going to surprize a few teams early in the season. Lets hope that the lackluster effort tonight was just a "end of the preseason" thing. There was not a lot of effort on that floor tonight by the Kings. And UTAH was playing like it was a regular season game from the git go...
Not sure if any of this was a part response to my comments, but I'd like to add something here.
The Winning part doesnt bother me. It would be a bonus if other things went right .. and im not saying tonight was a complete failure either, I just disagree with how Westphal approached tonights game, along with most of the preseason.
I understand the "finding out different combinations" argument. Really, I do .. This team has a lot of versatile parts, and its important to figure out who can do what and when.
That being said, we dont have THAT much time to tinker. It doesnt matter what the 'experts' or fans think .. Everyone on the Kings team, coaches included, want the playoffs THIS year. Do I think we'll get there? Nope, but they do, and they deserve to have a coach that will put them in the best position to do that, and up until now he hasnt.
If this team is going to make it there, its going to take alot of hard work, alot of 'growing up' and alot of chemistry. Having Marcus Landry start the first two preseason games and then get cut from the team entirely is a slap in the face to Omri and Donte, two guys who have more talent and more years with the team. Starting Antione Wright before either of those guys is bad too. Then coach started Greene after barely playing him early in the preseason .... Its just a mess.
If Westphal had settled on something early, and then used this game to rest up guys then fine, but that wasnt even the case .. Another random night of playing time for random guys.
This was a problem last season. It cost us games, thats a fact. And his crazy rotation antics havent changed. Its going to cost us games this season, only now it matters because these guys really feel like there playing for something.
The Winning part doesnt bother me. It would be a bonus if other things went right .. and im not saying tonight was a complete failure either, I just disagree with how Westphal approached tonights game, along with most of the preseason.
I understand the "finding out different combinations" argument. Really, I do .. This team has a lot of versatile parts, and its important to figure out who can do what and when.
That being said, we dont have THAT much time to tinker. It doesnt matter what the 'experts' or fans think .. Everyone on the Kings team, coaches included, want the playoffs THIS year. Do I think we'll get there? Nope, but they do, and they deserve to have a coach that will put them in the best position to do that, and up until now he hasnt.
If this team is going to make it there, its going to take alot of hard work, alot of 'growing up' and alot of chemistry. Having Marcus Landry start the first two preseason games and then get cut from the team entirely is a slap in the face to Omri and Donte, two guys who have more talent and more years with the team. Starting Antione Wright before either of those guys is bad too. Then coach started Greene after barely playing him early in the preseason .... Its just a mess.
If Westphal had settled on something early, and then used this game to rest up guys then fine, but that wasnt even the case .. Another random night of playing time for random guys.
This was a problem last season. It cost us games, thats a fact. And his crazy rotation antics havent changed. Its going to cost us games this season, only now it matters because these guys really feel like there playing for something.
I think you've touched on an important point. None of us are in the system, but at least from where I'm sitting PW's actions and rotations just seem completely random. It doesn't look as if he's even trying to move towards settling into a regular rotation. What seems really odd to me, though, is the fact that up until Kevin Martin's return from injury last season, PW did have a fairly stable rotation and reasonably defined roles for each player, and it worked great. The Kings were around .500, there was lots of energy and excitement, they were a fun team to watch, and everyone seemed happy. With Martin's return it was expected that there would be some confusion, but the team spiraled into total chaos, which continued long after Martin was traded. So, it's not as if PW doesn't have the ability to construct a stable rotation and define the players' roles, because he proved that he can do that at the first half of last season. But for some reason he is unwilling, or unable, to go back to the things that worked so well when he started coaching the Kings. I honestly don't know what to make of that.
I think what is going on is a manifestation of the fact that we have a relatively young and inexperienced team. The good thing about our team is that it is not devoid of talents and potential now.
IMO, only Evans ( at PG ) among our players has consistently shown to be a starter level player as of now. Maybe we can say Dalembert ( at C ) and Landry at ( PF ) are starter level, but this is basing mostly on their performances in Philadelphia and Houston respectively. And maybe Cousins ( C or PF ), but he is still a rookie. Casspi and Greene are still way too unpredictable/inconsistent to start at the SF position.
I wouldn't fault Westphal this early if he finds it hard to find that ideal starter for each position or so-called "rotation players" as early as now. We are probably on the later part of rebuilding this team. I'll give him some more time to figure it out before criticizing him.
IMO, only Evans ( at PG ) among our players has consistently shown to be a starter level player as of now. Maybe we can say Dalembert ( at C ) and Landry at ( PF ) are starter level, but this is basing mostly on their performances in Philadelphia and Houston respectively. And maybe Cousins ( C or PF ), but he is still a rookie. Casspi and Greene are still way too unpredictable/inconsistent to start at the SF position.
I wouldn't fault Westphal this early if he finds it hard to find that ideal starter for each position or so-called "rotation players" as early as now. We are probably on the later part of rebuilding this team. I'll give him some more time to figure it out before criticizing him.
Its 4 am, so bear with me. I'm getting ready to drive 600 miles down baja. No, my post had nothing to do with your posts. You know I respect your opinion. In fact it wasn't directed toward any one in particular. I just got a general sense that some were making way too much out of what they saw. In this mornings Bee Westphal admits that it was his first chance to play certain lineups that he's wanted to try all pre-season and couldn't because of injuries. Also, because he wanted to get all the bigs a lot of minutes, including Jackson, because he felt he deserved it, he gave both Cisco and Casspi the night off.
I realize there are those that are looking for some degree of improvement. But its hard to have any kind of consistency when so many key players have been injured. Consistency comes from playing together. This was Whitesides first game. Dalembert has yet to play in a game. Various players have been in and out of the lineup because of sprained ankles. Circumstances do dictate certain results. We may no like those results from time to time, but unfortunately reality does come and bite one in the butt whether we like it or not.
If we had a team made up of players with 5 or 6 years of experience, then we would look better. But we don't! We have a very young team. The good part is that they'll be together for a long time. The bad part is they're still learning the NBA game. Its fine to voice reasonably thought out displeasure. Its quite another to drop an atomic bomb on an ant. Not refering to you by the way.
I realize there are those that are looking for some degree of improvement. But its hard to have any kind of consistency when so many key players have been injured. Consistency comes from playing together. This was Whitesides first game. Dalembert has yet to play in a game. Various players have been in and out of the lineup because of sprained ankles. Circumstances do dictate certain results. We may no like those results from time to time, but unfortunately reality does come and bite one in the butt whether we like it or not.
If we had a team made up of players with 5 or 6 years of experience, then we would look better. But we don't! We have a very young team. The good part is that they'll be together for a long time. The bad part is they're still learning the NBA game. Its fine to voice reasonably thought out displeasure. Its quite another to drop an atomic bomb on an ant. Not refering to you by the way.
Well on a positive note Hassan didn't look daunted by the NBA at all; got stuck in, got some points and a couple of blocks, still a bit of a wanderer though; seems lost most of the time but if he can nail that down he could be a good player.
I don't know what was going on with Tyreke he was just terrible; everyones allowed off nights and lets hope he was just having one of them; seemed to slow the play down to a crawl every time he had the ball then just charge at his defender like a bull and turn it over, seemed like he had no idea which move to go to, was horrible. He had 8 assists though and was finding the outside shooters nicely for a stretch.
Cousins wasn't much better, he had 6 TO's and his shot wasn't dropping at all...
I don't base anything on pre-season but if i was forced too i would say we're looking at 28-33 wins this season.
I don't know what was going on with Tyreke he was just terrible; everyones allowed off nights and lets hope he was just having one of them; seemed to slow the play down to a crawl every time he had the ball then just charge at his defender like a bull and turn it over, seemed like he had no idea which move to go to, was horrible. He had 8 assists though and was finding the outside shooters nicely for a stretch.
Cousins wasn't much better, he had 6 TO's and his shot wasn't dropping at all...
I don't base anything on pre-season but if i was forced too i would say we're looking at 28-33 wins this season.
Mm, I agree with you. Not sure if your posts were directed at a group that included myself so I shall just add on anyway. It's unfortunate that our guys haven't been able to play together much due to injuries. I earlier said that what I was looking for was at least some improvement on things such as rotation and execution of basic offensive plays like the pick and roll, and I particularly had Tyreke in mind when mentioning this because there were several times where his passes were off in such situations. Just like Brick holds Tyreke to higher standards in the grades threads, I expect Tyreke to be that much better, even though it's only his second year, and I strongly believe that he can be. You are right too, not having injuries would have allowed our guys to have more time playing together, develop better chemistry which would translate to better execution on both ends of the floor. Even after considering injuries though, I still think that the offensive execution against the Jazz was poor and uncoordinated for a large part of the game. That's that, doesn't matter because it's preseason and it's not a true indicator of the team's performance, but just stating as a matter-of-fact: the team didn't play well.
Going a little off topic (or rather even more off topic), I personally want to hold Tyreke more accountable to his mistakes this season, because I believe that he can become a top player in the league. Last season, it was ok for him to ball hog a little, make some bad passes and things like that. From this season on, he should be making less mistakes and really continue getting better at running the offense through the rest of the guys as well. So please don't misinterpret my criticism of him as over-reaction, take it that I'm voicing out loud the mistakes I see him make in order to keep track of his progress.
Have a good trip Baja!
Going a little off topic (or rather even more off topic), I personally want to hold Tyreke more accountable to his mistakes this season, because I believe that he can become a top player in the league. Last season, it was ok for him to ball hog a little, make some bad passes and things like that. From this season on, he should be making less mistakes and really continue getting better at running the offense through the rest of the guys as well. So please don't misinterpret my criticism of him as over-reaction, take it that I'm voicing out loud the mistakes I see him make in order to keep track of his progress.
Have a good trip Baja!
Its going to take time for this team to gel. The young guys are learning the NBA, the system and how to play with each other. We should see improvement through out this season. I would say by mid-season NEXT year they should be clicking. These things take time.
As mentioned if these players were veterans of the NBA then the learning curve would involve less time. Young players make mistakes. Good young players learn from them.
Think about those Del Harris coached laker teams with a young Kobe. Kobe looked pretty bad at times. There is no magic pill
I may make Baja's statement my Sig: " Its fine to voice reasonably thought out displeasure. Its quite another to drop an atomic bomb on an ant. "
KB
As mentioned if these players were veterans of the NBA then the learning curve would involve less time. Young players make mistakes. Good young players learn from them.
Think about those Del Harris coached laker teams with a young Kobe. Kobe looked pretty bad at times. There is no magic pill
I may make Baja's statement my Sig: " Its fine to voice reasonably thought out displeasure. Its quite another to drop an atomic bomb on an ant. "
KB