If the Draft Doesn't Go According to Plan...

[Gary]

I'm actually starting to not worry at all about WCS on offense. I don't know if you've realized but everytime the other team double teams Cuz, JT just stands around... WCS will run and move around in the paint. I imagine so many High/low or assisted dunks by Cuz to WCS. WCS can do wonders for this team. He's an interesting player because how many players are there out there that bring 100% effort all the time? I think WCS is a special type of player, and with his work ethic, he can be good.



I see 2 teams that would heavily think about WCS. Magic and Charlotte. I don't know for sure if WCS could last till 10, but maybe he does?

If that's the case then Bhullar will get a lot of dunks if he ever plays with Cousins. At least he moves into the open area when there is a double on someone.

 

[206Fan]

If that's the case then Bhullar will get a lot of dunks if he ever plays with Cousins. At least he moves into the open area when there is a double on someone.

...hopefully Sim has the condition in him to move around on offense

 

[206Fan]

I guess I just don't understand what you mean by rim protector here. Turner averaged 4.7 blocks per 40 mins this season. Cauley-Stein averaged 2.7 blocks per 40 min. Karl Towns averaged 4.4 blocks per 40 min. I understand that shot blocking is not the be-all end-all of post defense, but isn't an elite shot blocker the very definition of a "rim protector"?

This is how I see that defensive front line playing out... Nobody is backing down Cousins and scoring over him near the basket. That's our primary post defender. If Turner is playing PF next to Cousins, his 9'2" standing reach is going to make it hard for most PFs to score over him (similar to the advantage Jason Thompson has matched up against Blake Griffin or Kevin Love) and his shot blocking instincts are going to deter guards and smaller forwards trying to finish inside. The only players we really have to worry about matchup-wise are stretch fours who like to take long jumpers or face-up and drive to the basket. And even there we would have two capable shotblockers down low so one of them is going to be free on the weak side to deter drives.



I don't think this is as difficult as a question as you think it is. We have two high usage scorers in Cousins and Gay. What we want in a PF is somebody who can contribute to the game in ways that don't involve scoring. That means a relatively low usage player who excels at rebounding, shotblocking, and overall defensive acumen. Ideally they can also pass the ball without turning it over, shoot a midrange jumper, and catch and finish reliably in space. In 4 of those 6 skill areas, I think Myles Turner is a better option than Cauley-Stein (rebounding, shotblocking, midrange J, catch and finish). Karl Towns ticks all of the boxes, but that's why he's going top 3. Nerlens Noel also ticks all of the boxes but we'd have to give up a lot to convince Philly to let him go.

I think there is a difference between a rim protector and a shot blocker. Compare WCS's blocks vs Towns. Towns more blocks, but we all know WCS is the NCAA's best rim protector.

I don't think Turner is a rim protector. Rim protectors force opponents to change their shots in mid air. Being a shot blocker does not mean you're a rim protector.

This isn't a knock on Turner by any means because there aren't that many rim protectors out there anyways.

I don't think he will be able to guard the quicker PFs. He's slower than a lot of them. I agree. He'll struggle a bit against stretch 4s. He'll fair a lot better against guys like Lopez.

I will heavily disagree with you on the fact that Turner is better than WCS in shot blocking. Turner is the better offensive player all around. But as you said, the Kings are looking for defense. WCS is the better all around player on defense with the exception of rebounding.

I think a Turner is still raw in a lot of areas of his game. It's why I feel like if we want to take a more raw prospect, I'd go with Porzingis who has almost everything we want. Adding more strength will solve over 90% of his problems. WCS is the guy to draft if you want an impact on day 1. Turner is a guy who will probably get a lot of DNPs( via Noah Vonleh) his first year, but he will be really good in 2-3 years.

 

[Prince_XY]

I will be happy if we get Willie Cauley-Stein, but I'll be fine too if we get a sweet outside shooting big with decent offensive moves inside the paint like Kaminski. Although not a shot-blocker, the dude seems like a good man-to-man defender at the post and seems to know very well the fundamental of boxing-out. He seems to be a good scrapper and I think he will for sure help get many rebounds. I project him to be many times better than JT,because of his high basketball IQ. With Cousins showing he is committed in protecting the rim, I think a stretch 7' footer big like Kaminski who shows flashes of being a decent post defender will help our team a lot. I don't know why Kaminski is not getting a lot of attention here as if he is another BIG soggy waffle. Yes, this kid looks soft but is very different from Hawes. The dude is very active in defense and seems to love hard contact and banging with other bigs.

Porzingis is too skinny. He is probably 2-3 years away from getting ready to play in the NBA. So, a big NO on him. I'd rather the Kings get Mario Hezonia if we're going for a Euro player. I think he is ready to fill in at SF and can be a good replacement for Gay down the road. The kid is smart, very athletic, and can flat-out ball. I see a Ginobili-kind of potential in him in the NBA.

 

[twslam07]

I'd rather the Kings get Mario Hezonia if we're going for a Euro player. I think he is ready to fill in at SF and can be a good replacement for Gay down the road. The kid is smart, very athletic, and can flat-out ball. I see a Ginobili-kind of potential in him in the NBA.

That's funny because I see Stauskas as having a good shot at becoming the next Ginobli (with better defense). Two Ginoblis off the bench would be pretty good I guess...

 

[twslam07]

I'll be fine too if we get a sweet outside shooting big with decent offensive moves in the paint like Kaminski. Although not a shot-blocker, the dude seems like a good man-to-man defender at the post and seems to know very well the fundamental of boxing-out. He seems to be a good scrapper and I think he will for sure help get many rebounds. I project him to be many times better than JT,because of his high basketball IQ. With Cousins showing he is committed in protecting the rim, I think a stretch 7' footer big like Kaminski who shows flashes of being a decent post defender will help our team a lot. I don't know why Kaminski is not getting a lot of attention here as if he is another BIG soggy waffle. The dude is very different from Hawes. The dude seems to love hard contact and banging with other bigs.

As far as Kaminski goes, he's not a very good athlete. I think he's going to have to matchup against centers to be successful on defense. With that being said I don't want Cousins on PFs either. I don't see him as a great fit on our team. Intriguing big, but I think he's going to be one of those bigs that needs to be paired with a very specific type of player. I actually think a Cauley-Stein/Kaminsky frontcourt would compliment each other very well. Cauley-Stein can take the harder of the defensive matchups, clean the boards, & block shots while Kaminsky focus more on the offensive side by stretching the floor and working down low a bit.

 

[Gilles]

I will be happy if we get Willie Cauley-Stein, but I'll be fine too if we get a sweet outside shooting big with decent offensive moves inside the paint like Kaminski. Although not a shot-blocker, the dude seems like a good man-to-man defender at the post and seems to know very well the fundamental of boxing-out. He seems to be a good scrapper and I think he will for sure help get many rebounds. I project him to be many times better than JT,because of his high basketball IQ. With Cousins showing he is committed in protecting the rim, I think a stretch 7' footer big like Kaminski who shows flashes of being a decent post defender will help our team a lot. I don't know why Kaminski is not getting a lot of attention here as if he is another BIG soggy waffle. The dude is very different from Hawes. The dude is very active in defense and seems to love hard contact and banging with other bigs.

Porzingis is too skinny. He is probably 2-3 years away from getting ready to play in the NBA. So, a big NO on him. I'd rather the Kings get Mario Hezonia if we're going for a Euro player. I think he is ready to fill in at SF and can be a good replacement for Gay down the road. The kid is smart, very athletic, and can flat-out ball. I see a Ginobili-kind of potential in him in the NBA.

Kaminsky will struggle with strength and speed of NBA game for 2-3 years. He will likely figure it out eventually though.
Hezonja plays nothing like Manu. He is longer Klay Thompson.

 

[Prince_XY]

That's funny because I see Stauskas as having a good shot at becoming the next Ginobli (with better defense). Two Ginoblis off the bench would be pretty good I guess...

That's scary and bad then - having to end-up having 2 Stauskas instead of 2 Ginobilis off the bench. We all know how raw and inadequate Stauskas is right now. We might end-up with the same thing with this Euro kid.

Darn, PDA/Vivek. This is your fault and of course not Vlade's.

 

[King Baller]

As far as Kaminski goes, he's not a very good athlete. I think he's going to have to matchup against centers to be successful on defense. With that being said I don't want Cousins on PFs either. I don't see him as a great fit on our team. Intriguing big, but I think he's going to be one of those bigs that needs to be paired with a very specific type of player. I actually think a Cauley-Stein/Kaminsky frontcourt would compliment each other very well. Cauley-Stein can take the harder of the defensive matchups, clean the boards, & block shots while Kaminsky focus more on the offensive side by stretching the floor and working down low a bit.

If the above in red is correct then Cousins and Cauley-Stein should kill it. I would hope Cauley-Stein would complement Cousins the way Dalembert did in the brief time they played together, perhaps WCS would be even better!

 

[twslam07]

That's scary and bad then - having to end-up having 2 Stauskas instead of 2 Ginobilis off the bench. We all know how raw and inadequate Stauskas is right now. We might end-up with the same thing with this Euro kid.

Darn, PDA/Vivek. This is your fault and of course not Vlade's.

Unlike many of the fans here, I'm not at all worried with Stauskas' play. I think everyone would agree that he's played much better lately. He doesn't seem lost, he's starting to make very good decisions, and he's finding open teammates for good looks. The last 17 games he's been shooting 44% from the floor, 44% from three, and 86% from the charity stripe. Those are very good percentages for anyone let alone a rookie.

I think we'll be surprised to see the type of player we have in Stauskas coming opening day next year. Maybe Ben too. He made big strides from last year to this year. Who says he can't do it again under a HOF coach?

Just for reference, these are Stauskas' per36 stats over those 17 games:

.44 FG% / .44 3PT% / .86 FT% / 12.8 PPG / 2.8 RPG / 2.2 APG / 0.7 SPG / 0.5 BPG / 1.4 TOPG

Again, that's not bad at all for a rookie guard. It's not the best stat line I've ever seen, but it's enough to show me he's getting there.

 

[twslam07]

If the above in red is correct then Cousins and Cauley-Stein should kill it. I would hope Cauley-Stein would complement Cousins the way Dalembert did in the brief time they played together, perhaps WCS would be even better!

No argument here!

 

[c-webb1s#1]

If you are going to go into the draft and pick players based on needs rather than actual potential...why not just trade the pick for someone who can contribute right away?

 

[Prince_XY]

As far as Kaminski goes, he's not a very good athlete. I think he's going to have to matchup against centers to be successful on defense. With that being said I don't want Cousins on PFs either. I don't see him as a great fit on our team. Intriguing big, but I think he's going to be one of those bigs that needs to be paired with a very specific type of player. I actually think a Cauley-Stein/Kaminsky frontcourt would compliment each other very well. Cauley-Stein can take the harder of the defensive matchups, clean the boards, & block shots while Kaminsky focus more on the offensive side by stretching the floor and working down low a bit.

Yes, I agree Kaminski is not a very good athlete. But the kid is active enough and fast enough though. I remember when some fans used to think Dalembert was not agile and fast enough to guard PF's and it turned out he was okay. I believe Kaminski seemingly having the right kind of attitude/discipline and development will be of big help. This kid does not play like a lazy/slumbering BIG. He is not flashy and athletic, but he is very active and agile for a 7' tall player.

Also, if there are faster PF's to match-up (the likes of Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony or even Dirk Nowitzky), we can probably use Gay on them. Kaminski comes off the bench to sub Cousins to provide more basketball IQ. With his inside-outside game, he will for sure be able to provide a lot of help offensively off the bench.

 

[hrdboild]

The problem with Kaminsky is...

Doug McDermott, Shabazz Napier, Mason Plumlee, CJ McCollum, Miles Plumlee, TylerZeller, Festus Ezeli, Jimmer Fredette, Nolan Smith, Marshon Brooks, Norris Cole, Shelden Williams, Randy Foye, Terrence Williams, Tyler Hansbrough

Sure every once in awhile you get a Jimmy Butler, Brandon Roy, or Kenneth Faried but there's a reason why seniors aren't usually taken in the high lottery. At that point in their development, you pretty much know who a player is. Those types of players don't usually get substantially better once they come into the league so unless they're already high level NBA starters, you're probably better off taking a younger player who has a lot more potential to grow into an elite player. I do think Kaminsky is one of the better seniors to enter the draft in awhile, but he should be looked at no higher than #10 I think and with the understanding that you're probably drafting a career backup or high level roleplayer.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Why not much attention to guys like Myles Turner?
Seems like the guy got length to block shots and range to be a stretch four.

It may take couple of years though. But I'm intrigued of the potential.

And speaking of McDermott, the kid is rotting in Chicago, after lighting up the Summer league. If we need shooters, maybe we can find a way to get him to the Kings next season.

 

[Spike]

Why not much attention to guys like Myles Turner?
Seems like the guy got length to block shots and range to be a stretch four.

It may take couple of years though. But I'm intrigued of the potential.

And speaking of McDermott, the kid is rotting in Chicago, after lighting up the Summer league. If we need shooters, maybe we can find a way to get him to the Kings next season.

There's your answer. The FO and the fanbase cannot wait a couple of years. We need someone who can contribute meaningfully on day 1, whether it be someone drafted or brought in via trade.

 

[ilmago]

Top prospects that can contribute on day 1, are:
KAT (Bingo!)
Okafor (we don't need him)
Russell (I love this kid)
Mudiay( ??)
Winslow (#DraftJustise)

Then, we have some interesting guys that can be very good or have a good impact in the NBA:
WCS, Hezonjia, Kaminsky&Dekker, Porzingis(?), Grant, Dunn

Last, we have some freshmen, potentially very good players (but , imho, who can't contribute right now for our Kings):
Johnson, Oubre, Turner and maybe Tyus Jones and even Hollis-Jefferson (this one he's sophomore, I know).

1)If we're lucky in the draft lottery we have to keep our pick and draft KAT/Russell or Winslow
2)If we aren't lucky we may trade our draft pick (#7/8 ) for:
2.1) a first mid-round pick with some other stuffs (a future 1st pick/second pick or a nice role player?) and pray we can find a WCS/Hezonja (yeah, probably not..) or even Dekker/Kaminsky or even Dunn
2.2) trade our pick for a great player

1.1) drafting KAT we have DMC/KAT/JT/Moreland, so we can strecht La(u)ndry's contract and get someone on the FA.
1.2)With Russel , we can trade Ray and Ben/ Nik (even if I like these guys) for Noel, why not? Then take a swingman or a 3 and D.
So, we'll have:
Backcourt: Russell/Collison/Nik/Miller/3 and D
Front: DMC/Noel/Gay/Casspi/Moreland/JT/ #12 man on the roster
1.3)With Justise we can go with this kind of lineup: DC-Ben/Nik-Justise-Gay-DMC , but I think we have to trade, necessary, Nik/Ben for a good defender-rim protector, while in the FA we don't need a 3andD (we have Winslow) so we can look for someone else.

If we aren't lucky...well, I don't know. But I don't want to be always unlucky...

 

[hrdboild]

Why not much attention to guys like Myles Turner?
Seems like the guy got length to block shots and range to be a stretch four.

It may take couple of years though. But I'm intrigued of the potential.

And speaking of McDermott, the kid is rotting in Chicago, after lighting up the Summer league. If we need shooters, maybe we can find a way to get him to the Kings next season.

I made 3 posts about Myles Turner earlier in this thread. He's kindof under the radar in general because he didn't have a stellar freshman season and Texas got bounced in the first round of the tournament (a game in which Turner didn't play much). In fact, he hasn't played 20 or more minutes in a game since March 2nd. However, if you look at his high school resume, his per40 stats in college, and his measurements it's easy to make a case for him in the top 10 -- maybe as high as top 5. Long story short, I think he's a lot closer to Karl Towns in overall potential than Cauley-Stein and the common assumption that staying longer in college better prepares you for the NBA is overblown. It may take him a couple years to really find his stride in the NBA but every college player has the same adjustments to make. I think we'll be hearing a lot more about him once draft workouts get started.

 

[ESP47]

These big men have good defensive potential but they most likely aren't going to make us any better next year. The chances of them being better than JT on D in their rookie years is pretty slim.

I like those guys for the future but we're going to need one of them PLUS shooters next year.

 

[bajaden]

Webb isn't wrong, but is forgetting the fact that DeAndre is blessed with the best PnR PG in the league to score his points. For guys like Chandler, DeAndre and eventually WCS, they depend on playing with a strong playmaker to get buckets.

Actually, Webb is wrong. My question to Webb is, which DeAndre Jordan are you talking about? The one coming out of college, or the current DeAndre Jordan? Because coming out of college, Cauley-Stein is the better player, and I predict he'll be the better overall player in the end. First of all, Webber tried to make Jordan look like a superior giant, and Stein this skinny weak player. Coming out of college at the combine, Jordan weighed 250 pounds. At Kentucky's pro day, which they ran exactly like the combine, and I might add, that their figures were very close to the Jordan brand, and the Lebron camp figures, Stein weighed 242 pounds. At the combine, Jordan measured 6'9.75" without shoes, and 6'11" with shoes. Stein measured 6'11.25"without shoes, and 7'0.25" with shoes. At the combine Jordan had a no step vertical of 26" and a max vertical of 30.5". Stein had a no step vertical of 31" and a max vertical of 37". The one statistic that Jordan had over Stein was in wingspan. Jordan had a 7'6"wingspan and Stein had a 7'2"wingspan. In my humble opinion, Stein is the superior athlete, and his BBIQ is far superior to Jordan's. Offensively, it's a wash. Jordan had little or no offense coming out of college and he averaged just 4.5 ppg along with 4.5 rebounds and 1.1 blocked shots his first year in the NBA.

Basically, Jordan's lack of BBIQ kept him off the floor for his first couple of years in the NBA. I have no idea what Webber was looking at. He commented on one play where Stein failed to score against a smaller player. Well, I agree Webb, Cauley-Stein isn't you. And neither is Jordan. No one is saying that Stein is going to be an offensive juggernaut. But they are saying that he's going to be a very good defensive player who on some nights will get you double digit scores. While Steins block averages are down a little this year, his three year career average is 2.2 blocks a game. If anyone questions his shot blocking ability, you haven't watched him play. But he's far more than that. He can guard a PG on the perimeter and shut him down. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders coming out of college that I've ever seen. Put Jordan out on the perimeter and see what you get. Cousins beats him off the dribble.

 

[bajaden]

I made 3 posts about Myles Turner earlier in this thread. He's kindof under the radar in general because he didn't have a stellar freshman season and Texas got bounced in the first round of the tournament (a game in which Turner didn't play much). In fact, he hasn't played 20 or more minutes in a game since March 2nd. However, if you look at his high school resume, his per40 stats in college, and his measurements it's easy to make a case for him in the top 10 -- maybe as high as top 5. Long story short, I think he's a lot closer to Karl Towns in overall potential than Cauley-Stein and the common assumption that staying longer in college better prepares you for the NBA is overblown. It may take him a couple years to really find his stride in the NBA but every college player has the same adjustments to make. I think we'll be hearing a lot more about him once draft workouts get started.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone is comparing Cauley-Stein to Karl Towns. Towns is the best overall big man in the draft. He's a solid, if not very good defender and shotblocker, and he's a very good offensive player as well as being a very good rebounder. If I have to choose between Stein and Towns, it's a no brainer. I take Towns ten times out of ten. I think we have to put prospects in their proper place. Stein is the best defensive player in the draft, in my opinion. Turner in that same humble opinion, is the biggest boom or bust player at the top part of the draft. Did you know that he only scored 23% of his baskets at the basket? He's touted as a player that can block shots, but also stretch the floor, however he only ahot 27% from beyond the arc. What were talking about here is nothing but pure potential, because we saw little in the way of results this season.

Now I don't want it to sound like I hate the guy. Quite the contrary. I like Turner, and I don't think he got a fair shake at Texas under Barnes. Who was just fired I might add. Texas did little to showcase thier bigs. They were a guard oriented team and the guards did most of the scoring while ignoring Turner. I'd really like him to stay another year under the new coach and see if he can live up to expecations. On the negative side is that he's not the athlete that Towns is, and he didn't show much aggression at times and seemed to like hanging out on the perimeter. Whether that was by choice, or by design, I don't know. But its partly the reason for his 45.5% fgp. What is encouraging is that he shot over 80% from the free throw line, which usually bodes well for the outside shot. One thing he did excell at was at blocking shots. If I get stuck picking in the 9th or 10th spot, I definitely think I have to consider him, along with Frank Kaminsky. One is all potential, while the other is a very skilled big man who lacks the athleticism of the Towns and Steins of the world. One last note, Turner's lateral quickness isn't that good, and that's where Cauley-Stein excels.

 

[bajaden]

I think this pick gets shopped more than any other pick in recent times. We will be looking to trade that pick for veteran help so don't be surprised in the slightest it this pick gets flicked to team like Denver for Faried and/or Lawson.

If we keep this pick it will be because we have to been able to find a taker for it that also happens to help us. I would say unless the pick is top 3 (and even then it wouldn't surprise me) the player that gets picked by us will not be playing for us next season.

This hierarchy will want veterans that provide immediate impact. Another kid is not going to help this team improve dramatically over the offseason.

If we stay at six, or get lucky and move up, and we trade the pick, I will slash my wrists. How would you have liked it if we had traded the fifth pick in the draft for a veteran player five years ago, and Cousins was now the starting center on another team?

 

[bajaden]

We've already seen Cuz play well alongside a similar player in Samuel Dalembert. Even Jason Thompson is a similar height and body type (6'11" in shoes, 250lbs). I don't think we'd be asking Turner to guard bigger C's anyway. A couple years ago I might have been concerned about interior defense without a dedicated post defender at PF, but watching Cousins grow into a standout defensive player this year means we don't need another post defender so much as we need a mobile PF who can play team defense and swat shots near the basket. Turner's measurements are almost exactly the same as LaMarcus Aldridge who's played nearly his whole career at PF alongside bigger centers (Przybilla, Camby, Oden, Leonard, Lopez). Some people say Turner isn't mobile enough to guard PFs but he looks plenty mobile to me. He doesn't get up and down the court like some of the PFs in the NBA, but from the three point line to the post he's got long strides and long arms and slides well laterally. He had issues with his positioning at Texas this year but that's a coaching issue more than a physical limitation.

I'm only harping on this because I feel like players sometimes get unfairly criticized for playing in a poor system in college (and vice versa). Karl Towns is a fine prospect -- I would take him #1 this year -- but Turner actually has a higher defensive reb % and a higher block % this season. They're nearly the same size if you look at height, weight, and wingspan. Towns is very skilled for a bigman -- he can shoot a bit, he can pass, he's got post skills. Turner isn't in the same class passing the ball but he's an even better shooter and does have some post skills of his own -- a hook shot and a turnaround jumper. If we're picking at 6-8 we won't have a chance at Towns but we might be able to get a similar player in Turner mostly because he didn't play at Kentucky this year and struggled a bit at the college level playing for a coach who just got himself fired (deservedly so). There are a lot of players who would help us more than Turner next year, but most of them are going to be expensive to obtain if they're even available at all. If we can't move the pick for immediate help, there's worse things we could do with it than spend it on an elite 19 year old big prospect.

Remember that a lot of people dismissed Andre Drummond at UCONN a few years ago because he looked raw and unready for the next level and yet two years into his NBA career he was already an elite rebounder and shotblocker. I know it's become popular around here to act as if Cousins is going to explode next season if we don't win 50 games, but typically the draft is where you take the player on the board who you think has the best chance of being a very good NBA player in the future and then get to work on helping them reach their potential. There might not be immediate results, but that doesn't mean we should only be drafting low-ceiling upperclassmen either.

Everything your saying about Turner could end up being correct. I don't dispute that. My problem is, that I'm shooting blind with him. He's supposed to be a good shooter, yet he was terrible from the three. He's supposed to be a good post player, but seldom posted up, and I saw him play a lot. He was one of the guys on my list I wanted to see play. Frankly, there were games when I was bored watching him. But, as I said, some of it could have been by design and not his fault. My point is, I just don't know. Drummond was a different case. Drummond is a freak athlete. Athletically, Drummond is better compared to Cauley-Stein. With Drummond being a bigger player overall. I had no doubt about Drummond's skills. I just doubted his desire. With Turner, I question both a little bit. At six, I have to take Cauley-Stein. But if I'm picking at 8 or 9 and Stein is gone, then I have to consider Turner. I think you have to enter Kaminsky into the conversation as well. He's not the shotblocker the others are, but he's very skilled, and I know he can shoot the ball. I also know he can rebound, and has a sneaky post game. He has great handles for a big as well.

 

[206Fan]

Actually, Webb is wrong. My question to Webb is, which DeAndre Jordan are you talking about? The one coming out of college, or the current DeAndre Jordan? Because coming out of college, Cauley-Stein is the better player, and I predict he'll be the better overall player in the end. First of all, Webber tried to make Jordan look like a superior giant, and Stein this skinny weak player. Coming out of college at the combine, Jordan weighed 250 pounds. At Kentucky's pro day, which they ran exactly like the combine, and I might add, that their figures were very close to the Jordan brand, and the Lebron camp figures, Stein weighed 242 pounds. At the combine, Jordan measured 6'9.75" without shoes, and 6'11" with shoes. Stein measured 6'11.25"without shoes, and 7'0.25" with shoes. At the combine Jordan had a no step vertical of 26" and a max vertical of 30.5". Stein had a no step vertical of 31" and a max vertical of 37". The one statistic that Jordan had over Stein was in wingspan. Jordan had a 7'6"wingspan and Stein had a 7'2"wingspan. In my humble opinion, Stein is the superior athlete, and his BBIQ is far superior to Jordan's. Offensively, it's a wash. Jordan had little or no offense coming out of college and he averaged just 4.5 ppg along with 4.5 rebounds and 1.1 blocked shots his first year in the NBA.

Basically, Jordan's lack of BBIQ kept him off the floor for his first couple of years in the NBA. I have no idea what Webber was looking at. He commented on one play where Stein failed to score against a smaller player. Well, I agree Webb, Cauley-Stein isn't you. And neither is Jordan. No one is saying that Stein is going to be an offensive juggernaut. But they are saying that he's going to be a very good defensive player who on some nights will get you double digit scores. While Steins block averages are down a little this year, his three year career average is 2.2 blocks a game. If anyone questions his shot blocking ability, you haven't watched him play. But he's far more than that. He can guard a PG on the perimeter and shut him down. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders coming out of college that I've ever seen. Put Jordan out on the perimeter and see what you get. Cousins beats him off the dribble.

You also have to remember that Jordan only spent 1 year at A&M, while WCS has spent 3 years at Kentucky. Just something to point out when we compare both of those two players.

 

[hrdboild]

With all due respect, I don't think anyone is comparing Cauley-Stein to Karl Towns. Towns is the best overall big man in the draft. He's a solid, if not very good defender and shotblocker, and he's a very good offensive player as well as being a very good rebounder. If I have to choose between Stein and Towns, it's a no brainer. I take Towns ten times out of ten. I think we have to put prospects in their proper place. Stein is the best defensive player in the draft, in my opinion. Turner in that same humble opinion, is the biggest boom or bust player at the top part of the draft. Did you know that he only scored 23% of his baskets at the basket? He's touted as a player that can block shots, but also stretch the floor, however he only ahot 27% from beyond the arc. What were talking about here is nothing but pure potential, because we saw little in the way of results this season.

Now I don't want it to sound like I hate the guy. Quite the contrary. I like Turner, and I don't think he got a fair shake at Texas under Barnes. Who was just fired I might add. Texas did little to showcase thier bigs. They were a guard oriented team and the guards did most of the scoring while ignoring Turner. I'd really like him to stay another year under the new coach and see if he can live up to expecations. On the negative side is that he's not the athlete that Towns is, and he didn't show much aggression at times and seemed to like hanging out on the perimeter. Whether that was by choice, or by design, I don't know. But its partly the reason for his 45.5% fgp. What is encouraging is that he shot over 80% from the free throw line, which usually bodes well for the outside shot. One thing he did excel at was at blocking shots. If I get stuck picking in the 9th or 10th spot, I definitely think I have to consider him, along with Frank Kaminsky. One is all potential, while the other is a very skilled big man who lacks the athleticism of the Towns and Steins of the world. One last note, Turner's lateral quickness isn't that good, and that's where Cauley-Stein excels.

I know you really like Cauley-Stein, bajaden. I don't really like watching Kentucky because their style of play doesn't appeal to me, but when I have watched them play over the past three years, I haven't been as impressed by Cauley-Stein as you are. I think he's a terrific defensive prospect but his inability to score on college defenders after three years at Kentucky is a legitimate concern. It also bothers me that I watched 2 games this season where I barely even noticed he was on the floor. For a player with his athletic gifts not to dominate every game as a junior, that's a red flag for me. Noel and Davis were never invisible on the court, even when they weren't scoring. I still have him ranked 8th at the moment, but that's more because he's a great fit for our team. If I'm being honest, I think there's probably 10 players in this draft who become better pros.

So, context here, I wasn't comparing Towns and Cauley-Stein -- just placing them in different tiers based on their relative risks/rewards. When I said Turner is closer to Karl Towns than Cauley-Stein I meant that I have Cauley-Stein in the 7-12 range for overall potential and Turner in the top 6. Towns has the right balance of college production and potential to be a top 3 pick. Turner has less college production, but the same amount of potential. For me that puts him higher on the list than Cauley-Stein, but then I've always favored potential over college production at the top of the draft.

It's true he shot 27% from three this season (17 for 62), but that's a pretty significant number for a freshman big man. Karl Towns took 8 threes all year and made 2 of them. Cauley-Stein hasn't attempted a three in any of his three years at Kentucky and probably won't in the NBA either. Noted senior sharpshooter Frank Kaminsky was 10 for 35 his freshman year. Also, with regards to Myles Tuner, he shot 40% in November and December (8 for 20). In the 34 game college season that represents the first 38% of the season. In January he went 5 for 19 so that's 33% three point shooting at the 2/3 mark of the season and he fell apart after that. Clearly there's a skill there worth developing further, it's not entirely untapped potential.

I also think it's worth mentioning that both PER and WS/40 place Turner as one of the top 2 players in the Big 12, as a freshman getting sporadic minutes so his overall production was still solid. In fact, PER places him right at the top of the draft if you look at this year's freshmen and that's a stat that underrates defensive players.

 

[Gary]

Actually, Webb is wrong. My question to Webb is, which DeAndre Jordan are you talking about? The one coming out of college, or the current DeAndre Jordan? Because coming out of college, Cauley-Stein is the better player, and I predict he'll be the better overall player in the end. First of all, Webber tried to make Jordan look like a superior giant, and Stein this skinny weak player. Coming out of college at the combine, Jordan weighed 250 pounds. At Kentucky's pro day, which they ran exactly like the combine, and I might add, that their figures were very close to the Jordan brand, and the Lebron camp figures, Stein weighed 242 pounds. At the combine, Jordan measured 6'9.75" without shoes, and 6'11" with shoes. Stein measured 6'11.25"without shoes, and 7'0.25" with shoes. At the combine Jordan had a no step vertical of 26" and a max vertical of 30.5". Stein had a no step vertical of 31" and a max vertical of 37". The one statistic that Jordan had over Stein was in wingspan. Jordan had a 7'6"wingspan and Stein had a 7'2"wingspan. In my humble opinion, Stein is the superior athlete, and his BBIQ is far superior to Jordan's. Offensively, it's a wash. Jordan had little or no offense coming out of college and he averaged just 4.5 ppg along with 4.5 rebounds and 1.1 blocked shots his first year in the NBA.

Basically, Jordan's lack of BBIQ kept him off the floor for his first couple of years in the NBA. I have no idea what Webber was looking at. He commented on one play where Stein failed to score against a smaller player. Well, I agree Webb, Cauley-Stein isn't you. And neither is Jordan. No one is saying that Stein is going to be an offensive juggernaut. But they are saying that he's going to be a very good defensive player who on some nights will get you double digit scores. While Steins block averages are down a little this year, his three year career average is 2.2 blocks a game. If anyone questions his shot blocking ability, you haven't watched him play. But he's far more than that. He can guard a PG on the perimeter and shut him down. He's one of the best pick and roll defenders coming out of college that I've ever seen. Put Jordan out on the perimeter and see what you get. Cousins beats him off the dribble.

There were issues in College where supposedly the coach wasn't using him correctly which scared a lot of potential suitors off. But yah, you didn't know what you were going to get when he left college so it was a pretty big gamble.. I still wanted to take that gamble though

 

[VF21]

If we stay at six, or get lucky and move up, and we trade the pick, I will slash my wrists. How would you have liked it if we had traded the fifth pick in the draft for a veteran player five years ago, and Cousins was now the starting center on another team?

Totally different situation. Five years ago we didn't have a franchise player to build around. I won't be surprised at all if we trade the pick if we have a chance to get a veteran that fully meets our needs.

 

[bajaden]

Totally different situation. Five years ago we didn't have a franchise player to build around. I won't be surprised at all if we trade the pick if we have a chance to get a veteran that fully meets our needs.

That's true, but if we had traded that pick five years ago, we wouldn't have a franchise player to build around right now. I'm not against trading draft picks depending on the return. But for people to treat draft picks with no more importance than throw away's in a trade is irritating. Lebron Jame was drafted. Michael Jordan was drafted etc. Why are we always wanting to have someone else's player instead of developing our own. Never mind, I know the answer to that. Were stuck in the "Grass is always greener" syndrome. That said, I'm willing to put my trust in Vlade.

 

[twslam07]

That's true, but if we had traded that pick five years ago, we wouldn't have a franchise player to build around right now. I'm not against trading draft picks depending on the return. But for people to treat draft picks with no more importance than throw away's in a trade is irritating. Lebron Jame was drafted. Michael Jordan was drafted etc. Why are we always wanting to have someone else's player instead of developing our own. Never mind, I know the answer to that. Were stuck in the "Grass is always greener" syndrome. That said, I'm willing to put my trust in Vlade.

Well if a franchise level talent slips to us at #6 (which Cousins was considered at the time), then yeah let's make the pick. The top 4 in this draft are considered to be those types of players. It doesn't mean nobody else can become that player. It just means nobody is expecting it and willing to put money down that it will happen.

I don't see any problem with moving the pick if we're not in a position to draft a player who has a good shot at being a franchise level player.

 

[bajaden]

I know you really like Cauley-Stein, bajaden. I don't really like watching Kentucky because their style of play doesn't appeal to me, but when I have watched them play over the past three years, I haven't been as impressed by Cauley-Stein as you are. I think he's a terrific defensive prospect but his inability to score on college defenders after three years at Kentucky is a legitimate concern. It also bothers me that I watched 2 games this season where I barely even noticed he was on the floor. For a player with his athletic gifts not to dominate every game as a junior, that's a red flag for me. Noel and Davis were never invisible on the court, even when they weren't scoring. I still have him ranked 8th at the moment, but that's more because he's a great fit for our team. If I'm being honest, I think there's probably 10 players in this draft who become better pros.

So, context here, I wasn't comparing Towns and Cauley-Stein -- just placing them in different tiers based on their relative risks/rewards. When I said Turner is closer to Karl Towns than Cauley-Stein I meant that I have Cauley-Stein in the 7-12 range for overall potential and Turner in the top 6. Towns has the right balance of college production and potential to be a top 3 pick. Turner has less college production, but the same amount of potential. For me that puts him higher on the list than Cauley-Stein, but then I've always favored potential over college production at the top of the draft.

It's true he shot 27% from three this season (17 for 62), but that's a pretty significant number for a freshman big man. Karl Towns took 8 threes all year and made 2 of them. Cauley-Stein hasn't attempted a three in any of his three years at Kentucky and probably won't in the NBA either. Noted senior sharpshooter Frank Kaminsky was 10 for 35 his freshman year. Also, with regards to Myles Tuner, he shot 40% in November and December (8 for 20). In the 34 game college season that represents the first 38% of the season. In January he went 5 for 19 so that's 33% three point shooting at the 2/3 mark of the season and he fell apart after that. Clearly there's a skill there worth developing further, it's not entirely untapped potential.

I also think it's worth mentioning that both PER and WS/40 place Turner as one of the top 2 players in the Big 12, as a freshman getting sporadic minutes so his overall production was still solid. In fact, PER places him right at the top of the draft if you look at this year's freshmen and that's a stat that underrates defensive players.

Don't know what to tell you. I watched Kentucky play 26 times this year counting the tournament, and if you watched them play enough, you'd understand that WCS seldom had his number called on the offensive side of the ball. It's not that he can't score, it's that he seldom gets the chance to score. They didn't need him to score. Almost all of his baskets came on fast breaks, putbacks, and alley opps. Sprinkled in over the entire season, he'd occasionally hit a 15 foot jumper, or score on an over the left shoulder hook shot. But in general, Calapari wanted ball movement, and people that were more prolific scorers doing the heavy lifting. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that did nothing but look at stats on the Kentucky players, has no idea how good or bad they are. If you tuned in for the wrong game, you'd think Karl Towns was not worth the time of day. You might see a game where he scored 4 points on 5 shots, had 3 boards and played 17 minutes. If you judged him on that game, you wouldn't have a clue how damm good a player he is. And I'm not talking about you, but in general.

Now saying that your comparing Turner to Towns makes perfect sense. Their similar players skill wise. But that's where it ends. However, as I said, I'm willing to cut Turner some slack because of how he was played, just like I'm willing to make concessions with WCS. I would have liked to see Turner on a team where he was a more featured player in the offense. He wasn't, so all we have to go on is what we saw. What I find interesting is some want to praise Turner's post game, and criticize Towns post game. That totally blows my mind. Turner seldom went into the post, while Towns spent probably 70% of his time in the post when it came to scoring, and he was very efficient at it. When I watch collge players, I don't pay a lot of attention to their stats, or Per's until after the fact. I really don't care. I'm more interested in how they play the game and what their skill set is. I also take into account as to how their being used. There's a reason that most UCLA players under Howland ended up being better NBA players than they showed at UCLA. I think the same thing could be said of Barnes at Texas.

To sum it up, I'm pretty sure I know what WCS can do. I'm not sure I know the same about Turner. So its not that I really disagree with you on his potential. He may ultimately end up being the better player. I just think there's more risk involved with Turner. Plus, I don't put that much emphasis on the offense of a defensive PF next to Cousins.