[Grades] Grades v. Suns 11/7/2014

Kings of the Player of the Game?

  • Cousins

    Votes: 21 25.0%
  • Collison

    Votes: 26 31.0%
  • McLemore

    Votes: 21 25.0%
  • Landry

    Votes: 15 17.9%
  • er...um...Gay

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Total voters
    84
  • Poll closed .

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
I must admit, I did not think the Kings would be able to come back and win this after Cousins went out. For the majority of the game the Kings were constantly trailing by 6-10 points and finally had consecutive defensive stops in order to give themselves a chance. Collison and Ben were HUGE down the stretch, Nik is slowly getting it together I can see it. That has to be the funnest Kings game I've attended since I started going to Suns games 8 years ago, there was a nice crowd of Kings fans there too so they are slowly coming back. I did not realize Rudy was ill, that explains his horrid shooting night, he was not utilized in the post enough last night, way too much dribbling and trying to create from top of the key. It was great to see IT have a subpar game by the way :cool:.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Aren't we kind of getting to the point where we're really asking a lot of fellow Kings fans if they have to watch the game, rewatch the game to fully assess every nuance of a player's game and then write up a fair assessment considering all factors, and ask them to do this FOR FREE?
That's splitting hairs, if you ask me. You make it sound like I'm sitting here making demands; I made a pertinent reply to the post above mine. Also known as providing feedback. Or are you saying that appreciation can only be shown in the form of unwavering praise, and that anything that's not, "Way to go!" must be kept to ourselves?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
That's splitting hairs, if you ask me. You make it sound like I'm sitting here making demands; I made a pertinent reply to the post above mine. Also known as providing feedback. Or are you saying that appreciation can only be shown in the form of unwavering praise, and that anything that's not, "Way to go!" must be kept to ourselves?
You are a self-admitted pedant. I read your comment and, based on knowing you for a very long time, I replied with what was my first impression. If said impression was incorrect, I apologize for the misinterpretation.
 
But it does speak to something that's been on my mind, Brick: you pay a lot of lip service to defense, but it doesn't seem to factor too heavily into your grades, at least not relative to offensive production. I'm kind of perplexed that you gave Thompson his second-best grade of the season for last night, when I kind of felt like it was the worst game he's played this year.
Do you know what the hardest part of grading defense is?

It's whether you decide to grade the result or the effort.

Offense is easy to grade because it's easy to quantify.
For instance, when Rudy goes 5-25 we say he had a poor offensive night and give him a corresponding poor grade.
Now it could be that he was going against an elite SF defender such as Paul George or LBJ, but if he decides to jack up 25 shots then the expectation is that he should be shooting with the idea that he'll be making these baskets at a good clip...so if he misses a lot, that is all on him.

Defense on the other hand is a whole other animal.
Lets say that Collison is guarding Tony Parker and Parker in the course of the game beats Collison off the dribble and gets to the rack 10 times but misses all of his flips going 0-10.
Then in another game Parker gets to the basket 10 times and this time scores 5 times, gets to the line 3 more times putting 2 fouls on Cousins and 1 foul on JT, scoring a combined 16 points.

In one situation Parker is not being effective on the offensive end because he's 'off' while the next time he's killing us inside....same defense just different results.

Then you have the situation where you play great defense and it's a matter of better offense overcoming great defense.
What if you have Collison playing Steph Curry perfectly, contesting every shot, getting into his air space, not letting him get penetration, and Curry is just hitting everything off one leg falling away from the outside going 12-16?
Is it poor defense even if you got lit up for 28 points on 75% shooting just because the guy you were guarding couldn't miss even if you blindfolded him and chained his feet together?

Finally you don't really know what the defensive schemes are. You can guess what the coach is asking...but if a player is making the same 'mistake' (like leaving his man on the perimeter) over and over again...is it really a mistake or what the coach is asking for? We can't know for certain.

Anyway, defense is just harder to grade because of the items above. It doesn't mean that it can't be quantified properly, but there is one other item to factor.

When you have the consortium grading you have different people grading different players each and every night so you're never going to get true consistency especially on the defensive end.
I think for players like JT, Ben, Evans, & Casspi the defense happens to be a bigger part of the grade because there isn't the expectation that they will be carrying the offensive.
But one grader might give a better grade due to the 'effort' while another grader might downgrade the score due to the 'result', defense is just harder to quantify consistently.

When grading I would say that it normally takes me around an hour-and-a-half to properly go through all the film, review the stats, and put together my thoughts on the grades...and that is usually only for two players.
It's staggering to think about the amount of time and effort Bricklayer has put into doing these grades by himself over the last decade...especially considering how unwatchable this team has been over these dark years...when all you really had to watch was player development and the hope that someday it would translate into winning team basketball.

Bricklayer is very concerned about consistency by the Grading Consortium and though we try there is always going to be room for improvements and I'm OK with that.
 
Now that we have people questioning the grading and suggesting how it can be improved, I want to say to Brick and the other graders that I appreciate the extra time you take to do this - so the rest of us can compare and contrast our own observations and grades, and respond accordingly. Because a few people seem to be complaining, please keep it in perspective and don't overreact, thinking to yourself "I don't need this BS."
 
There's so much interest in the Kings right now that threads during the dreaded time between games (TDTBG) now resemble threads during the dreaded off season (TDOS). Seems like we just can't wait to see our Kings again! We're all getting hooked!

TDTBG can't be over soon enough!
 
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Do you know what the hardest part of grading defense is?
....
Brilliant post, thanks for sharing!

Defense is indeed a very difficult thing to measure. One numerical measure that I find very interesting to evaluate a player's defensive ability (especially across many games) is DRtg-ranking-within-the-team (not just DRtg). Lat year this put DeMarcus Cousins first, with 101 opponent points allowed per 100 possension when on the floor. Isaiah Thomas, with 111 opponent points allows when on the floor, was among the worst in the team. It's not completely accurate, but it gives a better numerical evaluation than any other stat I'm aware of.

I also couldn't agree with you more on Bricklayer's effort. It amazes me how much work must go into doing this singlehandedly when the result has so much detail and insight. Very much appreciated.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
Aren't we kind of getting to the point where we're really asking a lot of fellow Kings fans if they have to watch the game, rewatch the game to fully assess every nuance of a player's game and then write up a fair assessment considering all factors, and ask them to do this FOR FREE?
Wait, you mean you're not getting pa...

On second thought, perhaps I should keep my mouth shut on this one.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
Does the Consortium have access to replay? If you're tasked with grading more than one player, are you required to evaluate both of them simultaneously?
Speaking for myself, I have DVR replay, yes. I will take advantage of it from time to time, but I prefer to keep track of my assignments in real time as much as possible. I simply don't have the time to watch the game through multiple times for grading.
 
Now that we have people questioning the grading and suggesting how it can be improved, I want to say to Brick and the other graders that I appreciate the extra time you take to do this - so the rest of us can compare and contrast our own observations and grades, and respond accordingly. Because a few people seem to be complaining, please keep it in perspective and don't overreact, thinking to yourself "I don't need this BS."
Me too.

Thank you guys for the great feedback.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Sure, I thank everybody involved. I simply don't understand yet the process and how the consortium works.
Well, for a long time I largely did the grades myself, but a couple of years ago I began to experiment with the idea of adding in more voices of longterm posters who watched with a keen eye, and so last season was born the Grading Consortiuum of 8 graders initially divvying up the grades on most nights.

Thus far this season its been just me, but we're forming up a new Consortiuum again. More eyes = see more of what's happening + get the grades out quicker.
 
Well, for a long time I largely did the grades myself, but a couple of years ago I began to experiment with the idea of adding in more voices of longterm posters who watched with a keen eye, and so last season was born the Grading Consortiuum of 8 graders initially divvying up the grades on most nights.

Thus far this season its been just me, but we're forming up a new Consortiuum again. More eyes = see more of what's happening + get the grades out quicker.
Thanks for the reply and once again this is one of the most interesting parts of the whole forum. I don't know if I have any qualifications to help you out there, but I'm available. However, I have a problem with consistency here and there. I'll be travelling in the end of the month for a week and a half and not sure if I can follow the games live.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Interesting that grades become a big topic of conversation when the team is now winning. Maybe the fact that it is winning with not all that great of an offense is highlighting some of the past grading misconceptions. In any case, the grading isn't something to take too seriously, imo.