Stupid but obligatory "Are we better without DMC?" thread

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#31
Ok point taken. We had Cousins, Gay and Rondo and all our other players and have not come close to the playoffs. Every year is the same with the techs and the attitude and the losing. Every year there is a multitude of excuses made for Cousins. On it goes...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
2010-2011: Rookie season. Paul Westphal not exactly a great manager of personalities in the locker room. Still, team had a lot of momentum through the second half of the season and you could see glimmers of something coming together behind the Reke-Boogie tandem despite the complete fustercluck of a roster (the team had more bigs than this season's "too many bigs" roster and Landry and Dalembert combining to take a lot of Boogie's playing time AND a horrifying hole at SF wherein post-medicine-ball Cisco, Donte Greene, and pre-figuring out how to be an NBA player Omri vied for the starting spot). Team went 24-58 but you could sorta see them starting to go somewhere. Sure Boogie punched Donte Greene, but let's be fair, who didn't want to punch the man?

Best six players: Reke, Boogie, Marcus Thornton, Dalembert, Beno, Landry Not a fantastic bunch, seeing as how Boogie was still a rookie with questionable basketball habits and Reke struggled with the pressure of following up a historic rookie run, but one that you could see winning more games than they'd lose with a little more seasoning.

2011-2012: Ah, yes. The disaster year. This is the moment where the Kings Titanic runs into an iceberg. Over the offseason, the team inexplicably replaces its first solid shot blocker role-player big in half a decade with Chuck Hayes, who in return for his huge contract shows up with a heart condition, gets fat, and sorta just festers on the bench (where he rightfully belongs as a decent effort guy on a playoff team, which we weren't). Geoff Petrie also decides to pass up Kawhi and trade the pick and Beno (who was playing pretty well as our third guard) for a "solution" to our SF debacle, John Salmons, and is pressured by the Maloofs into picking Jimmer, who also immediate shows up and reveals a complete inability to dribble the ball past half court at the NBA level, thus completely crushing our once solid guard depth chart, at least until IT shows up and heroballs his way into the starting lineup. To cap it all off, Geoff decides to trade Omri and a first to Cleveland for JJ Hickson, who also decides to completely suck his way into us cutting him midway through the year. In other words, we got rid of all of our good role player vet-ish guys and a 1st for a bunch of sucky dudes who don't play in the NBA any more and IT.

Then, when the season starts, the team loses any and all momentum left over from the feel-good young guns run of the last season (though to be fair, most of that team's roster was now playing elsewhere) and fires Westphal, who at this point seemed more interested in getting in pissing matches with his locker room than with actually coaching. In his place, the Kings elevate Keith Smart, a friendly natured Nelly-disciple who promptly installed a smallball run-and-gun system completely antithetical to our roster of future All-NBA big men (Boogie and a completely ignored and lazy Hassan), penetrating, defending machine Tyreke Evans, and random old dudes just here for the pay check. To Smart's credit, his system did a good job of giving IT space to grow into an NBA player and I'm sure Marcus Thornton enjoyed jacking up 16 shots a game. Not exactly a winning team, though to be fair, Boogie did have a big role in getting Westphal fired but that firing was probably going to happen sooner or later regardless.

Best six players: Boogie, Reke, MT (rapidly devolving from pesky undersized scorer SG into lazy chucker), IT (before Brad Stevens taught him how to play defense), Jason Thompson, John Salmons. Uh yeah. Anytime Jason Thompson is one of your best players (a running theme as you'll see), your team probably isn't going to be winning too many games. Also that talent drop off between player number four on the list and player number five is horrifying. So yeah, eff Boogie.

2012-2013: In preparation for a Seattle move, the Maloofs starting saving money, scaring Petrie into passing on his favored Damian Lillard to pick Thomas Robinson because he was afraid of not having a power forward on the roster. Marcus Thornton's basketball devolution continues, allowing IT to leapfrog him into the starting lineup. Also Keith Smart was still the coach and John Salmons was still our starting small forward for some reason. T-Rob also completely flames out, allowing Jason Thompson to once more call himself a starting power forward.

To combat Keith Smart's system's aversion to defense Petrie picks up James Johnson who occasionally plays good defense but mostly just spends his time doing dumb things like a blind version of Lebron. Jimmer also still can't figure out how to dribble the ball.

Best six players: Boogie, Reke (now starting to show his propensity for injuries), IT, Jason Thompson, MT, John Salmons. The same six guys so, yay, stability! Unfortunately stability is only good when your roster doesn't feature a backup big man rotation of Chuck Hayes/Travis Outlaw/Thomas Robinson for most of the season. In a blatant attempt to salvage something of value from the T-Rob Hindenburg, Geoff trades him (and more!) to Houston for Patrick Patterson, who finally gives the Kings a power forward option whose main redeeming traits appears to be having the physical characteristics of an NBA big man. Between the out-of-his-depths coach and the complete and total lack of NBA talent, it's hard to put this losing season on Boogie, especially as the last half of the season was spent with most of the league checking out the latest Seattle restaurant recommendations.

2013-2014: A new regime and a new coach! And also a GM who decided to start things off by hemmoraging talent, jettisoning Reke in a clunky sign-and-trade in which we wound up with Robin Lopez, an ideal defensive fit for Mike Malone's system and alongside Boogie, and decided to trade him for Greivis Vasquez, a backup guy who can't play defense and came to the Kings and played the worst basketball of his career, instead. Good going Weasel! He also signs Carl Landry for some reason. Carl Landry then immediately gets hurt and misses most of the year.

The season starts with Malone still installing his system and learning how to be a head coach on the fly. He's also trying to teach defense to a squad that has spent the greater part of the last two seasons actively trying to find ways to let the other team score faster so they could get the ball back and jack up more shots. The front office genius also decide to trade the team's best defender Luc Mbah a Moute to Minnesota for a guy who would later go on to be called a Coke Machine to play small forward.

But hey D-Will actually plays better than expected and it looks like the team might have a not-sucky small forward! And then Pete miraculously pulls off a not-horrible trade, turning a struggling P-Pat, benched Greivis, Chuck Hayes, and the Stanky Fish for Rudy Gay, Quincy Acy, and Aaron Gray. Rudy gives the team a third player how actively doesn't suck and if you squint you can see the makings of some sort of a big three in Boogie, IT, and Rudy. They actually play .500 ball when all three guys are together, which unfortunately wasn't much due to random injuries. IT's heroballing tendencies become a little more pronounced but the team is starting to look like they can get something going if the front office can give Mike Malone a couple of more pieces to work with and stop farting around with guys like Royce White and Sim Bhullar. We also traded swirling pit of basketball despair Marcus Thornton for Reggie Evans, giving us our first legitimate gritty role playing big man since who knows when. Ben McLemore also shows flashes at time (also flashes of suckiness).

Best six players: Boogie, Rudy, IT, Ben Mclemore, Jason Thompson, Derrick Williams.

The Kings manage to make up for the horrific exchange of Reke for a turd sandwich by picking up our first good small forward since Ron Artest. Boogie and IT continue to develop. McLemore and D-Will are exciting, yet frustrating young pieces. Jason Thompson is still there but what the hell. There's room for improvement but the team appears to have finally started getting on the right track after the disastrous end of the Maloof regime. A new arena is coming! Things are coming up roses! Hooray!!!!

2014-2015: Unfortunately, the only thing the Kings love more than being bad at basketball is shooting themselves in the foot.

Not having learned from his last horrible offseason, the Weasel once again gets rid of one of his best assets in IT, this time managing to get even LESS in return than he did in the Reke move. Saving his ultimate bad decision for the actual season, Pete then precedes to accidentally give Mike Malone role players for his system, signing Darren Collison to replace IT, and picking up Omri on a minimum contract. He also signs Ramon Sessions but the less said about that the better.

Vivek also drafts Nik Stauskas, whose main highlight as a King can be primarily attributed to bad closed captioning.

You know the story. Mike Malone's system appears to be working. The Kings are playing defense and Boogie has made the leap and become a bonafide superstar. The starting five isn't just good, it's, according to the numbers, defensively one of the best in the league. The Kings are winning games despite having a horrible bench. Unfortunately Boogie gets a freak illness but the Kings appear to be weathering the storm.

Then disaster strikes. Hurricane Pete randomly decides to fire the first not-terrible coach his team has had in a decade and replace him with Ty Corbin, who he promptly tells to run like hell. The Kings do and the wheels come off the wagon. After playing brilliant defense to start out, the Kings revert to old habits and blow up.

In a desperate attempt to save things, Vivek hires George Karl, who in his defense appears to have only been coach in name only for most of his tenure, delegating a lot of his work to assistants.

There's no way we can really pin much blame on Boogie this season aside from maybe encouraging him to try to boost his immune system.

Best six: Boogie, Rudy, DC, Ben, Omri, Jason Thompson.
PDA accidentally brought in two good free agents in DC and Omri. Rudy is also locked into a new contract (that Pete tricked him into by saying Mike Malone would be here to stay). Boogie is also very good at basketball. Jason Thompson is still here but that may just be by virtue of the Kings having no bench for most of the season.

2015-2016: IT'S WAR!

George Karl decides to open the offseason by alienating Boogie, immediately forging an impenetrable wall between himself and the locker room. He also makes weird comments about some of his players through out the season, including claiming Seth Curry wasn't an NBA player (not sure why though, seeing as he has a dad and all).

Vlade is the GM now and has a busy offseason: doing the infamous Philly swap trade (ridding us of Jason Thompson once and for all), using that space to sign Rondo, Kosta, Marco Bellinelli, James Anderson, and Caron Butler, and drafting Willie. He also brings back Quincy Acy and signs the NBA's most famous sibling in Seth Curry.

All these moves somehow seem pedestrian in the face of the Weasel Regime and Kosta and Rondo have good seasons. Marco unfortunately does not. As the season winds down and there is more drama with Karl and the team, the team starts resting guys and still manages to pull off a 33 win season. Should have been more but the situation was completely toxic and while Boogie didn't help matters, let us not pretend that having notoriously hard to get along with George Karl and Rajon Rondo around really helped matters.

Best six: Boogie, Rudy, DC, Rondo, Kosta, Omri. Hey look! NBA players! And no Jason Thompson. Rondo spends most of the season cherrypicking his way into a great statline and putting up question efforts on defense but he was, regardless, one of the better players on the squad. Boogie also begins turning into a 7 foot tall version of James Harden. Kosta finally gives the team a good roleplaying big man.

2016-2017: New arena! New (non-sucky) coach! New (non-sucky but old) role players! Results still to be determined.

None of these are excuses. They're just the circumstances surrounding the franchise.
 
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#32
2010-2011: Rookie season. Paul Westphal not exactly a great manager of personalities in the locker room. Still, team had a lot of momentum through the second half of the season and you could see glimmers of something coming together behind the Reke-Boogie tandem despite the complete fustercluck of a roster (the team had more bigs than this season's "too many bigs" roster and Landry and Dalembert combining to take a lot of Boogie's playing time AND a horrifying hole at SF wherein post-medicine-ball Cisco, Donte Greene, and pre-figuring out how to be an NBA player Omri vied for the starting spot). Team went 24-58 but you could sorta see them starting to go somewhere. Sure Boogie punched Donte Greene, but let's be fair, who didn't want to punch the man?

Best six players: Reke, Boogie, Marcus Thornton, Dalembert, Beno, Landry Not a fantastic bunch, seeing as how Boogie was still a rookie with questionable basketball habits and Reke struggled with the pressure of following up a historic rookie run, but one that you could see winning more games than they'd lose with a little more seasoning.

2011-2012: Ah, yes. The disaster year. This is the moment where the Kings Titanic runs into an iceberg. Over the offseason, the team inexplicably replaces its first solid shot blocker role-player big in half a decade with Chuck Hayes, who in return for his huge contract shows up with a heart condition, gets fat, and sorta just festers on the bench (where he rightfully belongs as a decent effort guy on a playoff team, which we weren't). Geoff Petrie also decides to pass up Kawhi and trade the pick and Beno (who was playing pretty well as our third guard) for a "solution" to our SF debacle, John Salmons, and is pressured by the Maloofs into picking Jimmer, who also immediate shows up and reveals a complete inability to dribble the ball past half court at the NBA level, thus completely crushing our once solid guard depth chart, at least until IT shows up and heroballs his way into the starting lineup. To cap it all off, Geoff decides to trade Omri and a first to Cleveland for JJ Hickson, who also decides to completely suck his way into us cutting him midway through the year. In other words, we got rid of all of our good role player vet-ish guys and a 1st for a bunch of sucky dudes who don't play in the NBA any more and IT.

Then, when the season starts, the team loses any and all momentum left over from the feel-good young guns run of the last season (though to be fair, most of that team's roster was now playing elsewhere) and fires Westphal, who at this point seemed more interested in getting in pissing matches with his locker room than with actually coaching. In his place, the Kings elevate Keith Smart, a friendly natured Nelly-disciple who promptly installed a smallball run-and-gun system completely antithetical to our roster of future All-NBA big men (Boogie and a completely ignored and lazy Hassan), penetrating, defending machine Tyreke Evans, and random old dudes just here for the pay check. To Smart's credit, his system did a good job of giving IT space to grow into an NBA player and I'm sure Marcus Thornton enjoyed jacking up 16 shots a game. Not exactly a winning team, though to be fair, Boogie did have a big role in getting Westphal fired but that firing was probably going to happen sooner or later regardless.

Best six players: Boogie, Reke, MT (rapidly devolving from pesky undersized scorer SG into lazy chucker), IT (before Brad Stevens taught him how to play defense), Jason Thompson, John Salmons. Uh yeah. Anytime Jason Thompson is one of your best players (a running theme as you'll see), your team probably isn't going to be winning too many games. Also that talent drop off between player number four on the list and player number five is horrifying. So yeah, eff Boogie.

2012-2013: In preparation for a Seattle move, the Maloofs starting saving money, scaring Petrie into passing on his favored Damian Lillard to pick Thomas Robinson because he was afraid of not having a power forward on the roster. Marcus Thornton's basketball devolution continues allowing IT to leapfrog him into the starting lineup. Also Keith Smart was still the coach and John Salmons was still our starting small forward for some reason. T-Rob also completely flames out, allowing Jason Thompson to once more call himself a starting power forward.

To combat Keith Smart's system's aversion to defense Petrie picks up James Johnson who occasionally plays good defense but mostly just spends his time doing dumb things like a blind version of Lebron. Jimmer also still can't figure out how to dribble the ball.

Best six players: Boogie, Reke (now starting to show his propensity for injuries), IT, Jason Thompson, MT, John Salmons. The same six guys so, yay, stability! Unfortunately stability is only good when your roster doesn't feature a backup big man rotation of Chuck Hayes/Travis Outlaw/Thomas Robinson for most of the season. In a blatant attempt to salvage something of value from the T-Rob Hindenburg, Geoff trades him (and more!) to Houston for Patrick Patterson, who finally gives the Kings a power forward option whose main redeeming traits appears to be having the physical characteristics of an NBA big man. Between the out-of-his-depths coach and the complete and total lack of NBA talent, it's hard to put this losing season on Boogie, especially as the last half of the season was spent with most of the league checking out the latest Seattle restaurant recommendations.

2013-2014: A new regime and a new coach! And also a GM who decided to start things off by hemmoraging talent, jettisoning Reke in a clunky sign-and-trade in which we wound up with Robin Lopez, an ideal defensive fit for Mike Malone's system and alongside Boogie, and decided to trade him for Greivis Vasquez, a backup guy who can't play defense and came to the Kings and played the worst basketball of his career, instead. Good going Weasel! He also signs Carl Landry for some reason. Carl Landry then immediately gets hurt and misses most of the year.

The season starts with Malone still installing his system and learning how to be a head coach on the fly. He's also trying to teach defense to a squad that has spent the greater part of the last two seasons actively trying to find ways to let the other team score faster so they could get the ball back and jack up more shots. The front office genius also decide to trade the team's best defender Luc Mbah a Moute to Minnesota for a guy who would later go on to be called a Coke Machine to play small forward.

But hey D-Will actually plays better than expected and it looks like the team might have a not-sucky small forward! And then Pete miraculously pulls off a not-horrible trade, turning a struggling P-Pat, benched Greivis, Chuck Hayes, and the Stanky Fish for Rudy Gay, Quincy Acy, and Aaron Gray. Rudy gives the team a third player how actively doesn't suck and if you squint you can see the makings of some sort of a big three in Boogie, IT, and Rudy. They actually play .500 ball when all three guys are together, which unfortunately wasn't much due to random injuries. IT's heroballing tendencies become a little more pronounced but the team is starting to look like they can get something going if the front office can give Mike Malone a couple of more pieces to work with and stop farting around with guys like Royce White and Sim Bhullar. We also traded swirling pit of basketball despair Marcus Thornton for Reggie Evans, giving us our first legitimate gritty role playing big man since who knows when. Ben McLemore also shows flashes at time (also flashes of suckiness).

Best six players: Boogie, Rudy, IT, Ben Mclemore, Jason Thompson, Derrick Williams.

The Kings manage to make up for the horrific exchange of Reke for a turd sandwich by picking up our first good small forward since Ron Artest. Boogie and IT continue to develop. McLemore and D-Will are exciting, yet frustrating young pieces. Jason Thompson is still there but what the hell. There's room for improvement but the team appears to have finally started getting on the right track after the disastrous end of the Maloof regime. A new arena is coming! Things are coming up roses! Hooray!!!!

2014-2015: Unfortunately, the only thing the Kings love more than being bad at basketball is shooting themselves in the foot.

Not having learned from his last horrible offseason, the Weasel once again gets rid of one of his best assets in IT, this time managing to get even LESS in return than he did in the Reke move. Saving his ultimate bad decision for the actual season, Pete then precedes to accidentally give Mike Malone role players for his system, signing Darren Collison to replace IT, and picking up Omri on a minimum contract. He also signs Ramon Sessions but the less said about that the better.

Vivek also drafts Nik Stauskas, whose main highlight as a King can be primarily attributed to bad closed captioning.

You know the story. Mike Malone's system appears to be working. The Kings are playing defense and Boogie has made the leap and become a bonafide superstar. The starting five isn't just good, it's, according to the numbers, defensively one of the best in the league. The Kings are winning games despite having a horrible bench. Unfortunately Boogie gets a freak illness but the Kings appear to be weathering the storm.

Then disaster strikes. Hurricane Pete randomly decides to fire the first not-terrible coach his team has had in a decade and replace him with Ty Corbin, who he promptly tells to run like hell. The Kings do and the wheels come off the wagon. After playing brilliant defense to start out, the Kings revert to old habits and blow up.

In a desperate attempt to save things, Vivek hires George Karl, who in his defense appears to have only been coach in name only for most of his tenure, delegating a lot of his work to assistants.

There's no way we can really pin much blame on Boogie this season aside from maybe encouraging him to try to boost his immune system.

Best six: Boogie, Rudy, DC, Ben, Omri, Jason Thompson.
PDA accidentally brought in two good free agents in DC and Omri. Rudy is also locked into a new contract (that Pete tricked him into by saying Mike Malone would be here to stay). Boogie is also very good at basketball. Jason Thompson is still here but that may just be by virtue of the Kings having no bench for most of the season.

2015-2016: IT'S WAR!

George Karl decides to open the offseason by alienating Boogie, immediately forging an impenetrable wall between himself and the locker room. He also makes weird comments about some of his players through out the season, including claiming Seth Curry wasn't an NBA player (not sure why though, seeing as he has a dad and all).

Vlade is the GM now and has a busy offseason: doing the infamous Philly swap trade (ridding us of Jason Thompson once and for all), using that space to sign Rondo, Kosta, Marco Bellinelli, James Anderson, and Caron Butler, and drafting Willie. He also brings back Quincy Acy and signs the NBA's most famous sibling in Seth Curry.

All these moves somehow seem pedestrian in the face of the Weasel Regime and Kosta and Rondo have good seasons. Marco unfortunately does not. As the season winds down and there is more drama with Karl and the team, the team starts resting guys and still manages to pull off a 33 win season. Should have been more but the situation was completely toxic and while Boogie didn't help matters, let us not pretend that having notoriously hard to get along with George Karl and Rajon Rondo around really helped matters.

Best six: Boogie, Rudy, DC, Rondo, Kosta, Omri. Hey look! NBA players! And no Jason Thompson. Rondo spends most of the season cherrypicking his way into a great statline and putting up question efforts on defense but he was, regardless, one of the better players on the squad. Boogie also begins turning into a 7 foot tall version of James Harden. Kosta finally gives the team a good roleplaying big man.

2016-2017: New arena! New (non-sucky) coach! New (non-sucky) role players! Results still to be determined.

None of these are excuses. They're just the circumstances surrounding the franchise.
Wow. Sorry I'm not reading all of that. I assume it's a rerun of histoty which I watched. Still excuses as far as I'm conserned. If he is that tallented then we should have won more.
 
#33
Boogie is the most consistent player of the bunch. I wouldn't be surprised if they get their butt kicked in the next game w/o Boogie.
 
#34
Wow. Sorry I'm not reading all of that. I assume it's a rerun of histoty which I watched. Still excuses as far as I'm conserned. If he is that tallented then we should have won more.
Your not going to read but it's "still excuses as far as your concerned." What good was watching the games if your mind is already made up? It's like doing a study with the conclusion already predetermined.
 
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#38
I thought Collison's comment was a bit of a pot shot at Cousins, even in the full context of the interview. Although it was funny because he complained about quite a few calls and even looked like he was on the verge of getting a technical at one point.

They dominated for one specific reason....IT's lack of defense. Collison was actually able to beat someone off the dribble fairly regularly for once. If we were playing Memphis or really any team with a competent defender at PG, we don't win that game or if we do we win it by a hair.
 
#39
I thought Collison's comment was a bit of a pot shot at Cousins, even in the full context of the interview. Although it was funny because he complained about quite a few calls and even looked like he was on the verge of getting a technical at one point.

They dominated for one specific reason....IT's lack of defense. Collison was actually able to beat someone off the dribble fairly regularly for once. If we were playing Memphis or really any team with a competent defender at PG, we don't win that game or if we do we win it by a hair.
Yup, if you look at the attachment I have, IT is a horrific defender but his offense is so amazing it makes up for it. Very fortunate he is surrounded by players who are above average defenders. As much as we all miss IT here, the main issue this team has is perimeter defense not scoring points. Not sure having IT fixes if he was still here.
 

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Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#43
Sometimes I wish fans would just say " I know he's damn good I just don't like the guy".

At least honesty I can respect.
Right? Quit qualifying your comments, and playing passive aggressive. How hard is it to say, "I don't like Player X. I know he's good, but I just can't stand him, and I would enjoy rooting for the team more, if he weren't on it"?
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#44
I like the point that @carmichaeldave just made on the radio: people who don't like Cousins would have found a way to use this game as a jumping point to get their Cousins hot takes off, regardless of the outcome. Kings win, "OMGZ, we're better without Cousins!" If they had lost, "OMGZ, Cousins cost us a game with his whining!"

Now, of course, he immediately had to take it a step too far after that, with that "You're not a real fan" business, but the point is taken. I've got to take exception to that last part, though: miss me with that No True Scotsman Kings Fan nonsense, Dave. There are a lot of fans who annoy me with how they conduct themselves, but there is no such thing as a "right" way to be a fan
 
#45
So, in conclusion, team is infinitely better with Boogie. Numbers do not lie. Problem is, they rely on him TOO much and they should play like they did last night every night with him.
His pick and roll defense is really bad, dont care what any number say that is the objective truth. Hes a good 1 on 1 post defender and is good at altering shots when he's in the paint though. In a league that is so guard dominated and pick and roll dominated, he sticks out like a sore thumb. It was really noticeable yesterday, WCS is really becoming a pick and roll destroyer. Celtics got none of those open threes we usually give up because WCS, Collison, Lawson, Tolliver, Barnes were able to contain the guards and the bigs.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#48
His pick and roll defense is really bad, dont care what any number say that is the objective truth. Hes a good 1 on 1 post defender and is good at altering shots when he's in the paint though. In a league that is so guard dominated and pick and roll dominated, he sticks out like a sore thumb. It was really noticeable yesterday, WCS is really becoming a pick and roll destroyer. Celtics got none of those open threes we usually give up because WCS, Collison, Lawson, Tolliver, Barnes were able to contain the guards and the bigs.
and that is precisely the mindset of the opposition going into a game versus the Kings. Put Cousins in pick and roll situations and you are bound to get a open look more often than not.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#49
His pick and roll defense is really bad, dont care what any number say that is the objective truth. Hes a good 1 on 1 post defender and is good at altering shots when he's in the paint though. In a league that is so guard dominated and pick and roll dominated, he sticks out like a sore thumb. It was really noticeable yesterday, WCS is really becoming a pick and roll destroyer. Celtics got none of those open threes we usually give up because WCS, Collison, Lawson, Tolliver, Barnes were able to contain the guards and the bigs.
It also helped that .409 3pt shooter Avery Bradley's spot next to IT was taken up by decidedly not-a-great-3-pt-shooter-at-this-point-in-his-career Jaylen Brown. The Celtics still shot 32 threes last night (IT took ELEVEN of them!), IT, Jae, and Marcus Smart just happened to miss most of them.
 
#52
It also helped that .409 3pt shooter Avery Bradley's spot next to IT was taken up by decidedly not-a-great-3-pt-shooter-at-this-point-in-his-career Jaylen Brown. The Celtics still shot 32 threes last night (IT took ELEVEN of them!), IT, Jae, and Marcus Smart just happened to miss most of them.
Very few of them were open though, they took threes because they are a team that takes a ton of threes not because they were able to break us down and get open shots.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#53
Very few of them were open though, they took threes because they are a team that takes a ton of threes not because they were able to break us down and get open shots.
I don't disagree with you that the team played good defense last night nor that Boogie isn't the best PnR defender but I'm not entirely sure both things are related. Boston, regardless of the Kings defense, was having a bit of an off night from the perimeter. They're also currently running an offense built around IT and his ability to (a) shoot and (b) make things happen with his speed/strength. IT didn't have one of his better shooting nights so point A wound up being a wash and Darren and Ty are both as quick as IT so he wasn't able to attack like he can with a lot of other teams. With Avery Bradley out, the Celtics' second option is Al Horford, who Willie and Kosta absolutely smothered all night. The Celtics are a bad rebounding team so that major weakness in the Kings squad went unexploited, which didn't make the Kings look worse.

Boston's wings absolutely did nothing all night, allowing us to get away with playing two old dudes and Ben McLemore tight on their bodies all night (in his brief stint, Malachi's rookie-ness showed). If even a single one of those guys decided to attempt a drive or two, Afflalo or Barnes would've probably struggled to contain them, forcing one of our bigs to collapse in and help. Considering how athletic all of Boston's wings are, this was a minor miracle in itself.

Once again, none of this is to take away from the performance last night but I'm still not sure how much of this we can attribute to Boogie not being in the game to make the wrong switch on a pick.
 
G

glassman

Guest
#54
I said the thread was stupid but necessary, if only to keep a few people from polluting a whole bunch of other threads.
Polluting? Until this team finally... finally makes the playoffs consistently. Those convos are relevant and gonna happen. The using the word stupid is polluting.

It's been many years of the same stuff... I get it. It's old for all of us.... but u enforcing ur view with mod status while being insulting is going too far. I think u could refrain from using "stupid" to describe in your opinion the theme of this thread and the people's opinions in it...

u need to give myself and others a break as long as we are not insulting u ... we aren't required to be as positive as u.

maybe go with at least some more clever sarcasm.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#58
Ok point taken. We had Cousins, Gay and Rondo and all our other players and have not come close to the playoffs. Every year is the same with the techs and the attitude and the losing. Every year there is a multitude of excuses made for Cousins. On it goes...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I think "all our other players" is a pretty good reason why we didn't make the playoffs...that, and you're forgetting the coach.
 
#59
Also Cousins is -32 on the year. He has been minus almost every year.

I peeked a IT's stats and the chucker is +108. He has been in the plus every year except his first two. What is it with the blind loyalty to Cousins? The guy is talented but has a lot of liabilities. He refuse to change. Anyone who rubs him the wrong way is gone.
Plus minus is a horrible stat to use when assessing a single player becuase players who are on better teams will have a higher plus/minus. Did you happen to notice that the top 4 players in this stat all happen to play on GS? It's because their team wins by large margins so their players receive a higher plus/minus. It's borderline reckless to use this as a comparison across two players from different teams.

On/Off is a little better as it assess the teams performance while that player is on the court while also taking into account the team's performance when they are off the court. Meaning if a team is still successful with that player off the court, the on/off will take a hit because their play when on the court isn't really elevating the team.

Cousins on/off this year is +4.4
Thomas on/off this year is +0.5


This is basically saying that when Smart, Rozier, etc. come in for Thomas at PG, the team is only 0.5 points worse. That's hardly anything! Meanwhile when guys like Koufos, Cauley-Stein, etc. come in for Cousins, the team is 4.4 points worse. That's much more substantial.

What on/off doesn't do very well is take into account the amount of time you play with certain teammates meaning if 80% of your minutes are with backups, you're going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to on/off. It also doesn't do a good job at adjusting for the quality of players you play against. So if you play 80% of your minutes against the opposing teams starters, you're going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to on/off.

RAPM & RPM do a better job at adjusting for these sort of things. It's obviosuly not perfect (no stat is), but it's a pretty good advanced stat to show a players impact on winning.

Cousins RPM this year is 5.57 (11th in the league)
Thomas RPM this year is 1.55 (67th in the league)


As you can see, there's really no comparison between the two, and it's why myself and others are confused why people are talking about Thomas being an MVP candidate. His offense is MVP level but his defense is bench warmer level. That's what's holding him back from being a top notch star in the sense of contributing quite a bit to a winning team. People just love to get caught up in the offensive side of the ball and assess him with only that in mind. The game is won on both sides of the ball. It's only logical to assess a player both on offense & defense, but unfortunately, that's not the national narrative. It's all about "look at that stepback 3 with a hand in his face! He's an excellent player!" or "look at the double crossover, behind the back dribble with the hesitation into a posterizing dunk! This guy is a top notch player!" People like to get caught in the flair and flashiness that is basketball, and there's nothing less flashy than defense.
 
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#60
Right? Quit qualifying your comments, and playing passive aggressive. How hard is it to say, "I don't like Player X. I know he's good, but I just can't stand him, and I would enjoy rooting for the team more, if he weren't on it"?
I don't like Player DeMarcus Cousins. I know he's good, but I just can't stand him, and I would enjoy rooting for the team more, if he weren't on it.