Stupid but obligatory "Are we better without DMC?" thread

[Bricklayer]

Every year people say Cousins would be great if only we had x, y, and z. There is always some problem getting in the way (Cousins does not count as a problem). This year we are about as close as we ever will be. We have a great coach. We have some motivated players and some talented players. Yet the wins and losses trend exactly the same. We are disappointed time and again with the personality of this team. A team that almost never wins the games they are supposed to but give us hope by beating the top teams in the league. When they aren't taking other teams seriously enough, Cousins is having personality issues and getting techs. They almost never play for four quarters. This has been going on indefinitely. I'm tired of it. I have been tired of it for two and a half seasons. It is not going to change. This is who the Kings are with Cousins.

Load of crap.

I throw this challenge out occasionally to expose the foolishness of the anti-Cuz plank, so tell me:

Vlade Divac, DeMarcus Cousins, Peja Stojakovic, Doug Christie, Mike Bibby...whadya think? Think they might win and win quite consistently? I'll hint you up and point out the obvious: this is a trap.

Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Tony Parker...whadya think?

DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Luc Mbah a Moute, JJ Reddick, Chris Paul...whadya think?


We could go on and on and on with this game, but unless you decided to make a complete fool of yourself over a bleeping plank, your answers to the above should reveal to you that's it's the roster, damnit. Not the star. Give him the teammates and he's suddenly a big time winner too, and much less whining is heard in the Kingdom.

 

[The Effort Police]

Right? Quit qualifying your comments, and playing passive aggressive. How hard is it to say, "I don't like Player X. I know he's good, but I just can't stand him, and I would enjoy rooting for the team more, if he weren't on it"?

I feel like doing so would be disingenuous if you were to admit that.

I mean, there are few players in a Kings uniform that ive actively disliked. One of them though is Nik Stauskas. Beyond the whole draft day fiasco regarding him, I always felt he was a smarmy douche. Petty and irrational? Probably, but its at that point where my dislike of Stauskas hardly matters.

The point is, if Nik were to become a positive contributor to the team, i wouldve had to swallow my dislike.

That never happened though. Cant say the same about DMC. He clearly makes them better.

I don't like Player DeMarcus Cousins. I know he's good, but I just can't stand him, and I would enjoy rooting for the team more, if he weren't on it.

You do realize that anything that you say about Cousins winning, or lack thereof, is a moot point then?

This quote is pointless. First if we did not have Cousins we would have traded for other players. Also the team practices with Cousins daily. I would love to see a season without him so the team could gel with someone else.

This year there have been several times our bench looked better than the starters. That included last night. We have some better players now and a better coach.

In previous years, all we had was Cousins. I don't think that is the case any more.

Who are these magical assets we can trade if we just randomly remove Cousins from the equation? And these better players? The consensus seems to be that this is a scrappy yet ultimately untalented team. You seem to be the only one that thinks this team has any talent, especially when you remove the one big talent it has.

 

[Tetsujin]

Who are these magical assets we can trade if we just randomly remove Cousins from the equation? And these better players? .

Movable pieces

 

[NewArena]

No. Next question.

 

[ParniValjak]

So Paul Pierce is drinking cool aid as well?

I believe the person who really has the 80s, 90s, early 2000s genes of competitive fire are dead and gone. You have about one or two guys who I see that in, (Russell) Westbrook and maybe like a DeMarcus Cousins or something. But pretty much everybody else, it's a different type of attitude."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-clippers-nba-rivalries-kobe-lebron/97670992/

 

[NewArena]

Movable pieces

God I'm gonna throw up

 

[peacelate]

Cousins has always been and will always be a whiner. At this juncture of his career, it's simply who he is. Some people call it passion, others call it immaturity. He's probably not going to change. He's always had these issues going back to college. What's even more futile is arguing incessantly and obstinately that his problems arise from lack of direction from Kings management, bad teammates, terrible refs, bad coaches, reporters, Napear and opposing commentators.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I feel like doing so would be disingenuous if you were to admit that.

I disagree; I don't think that there's anything disingenuous about admitting that you don't like a player on the team that you root for. The only real question is, can you compartmentalize your dislike enough to criticize a player objectively? Actually, I guess that there's another one: do you have enough self-awareness to recognize the impact that your dislike has on how you criticize that player, and are you capable of admitting it to yourself, and to other people?

If you can do that, if you can be fair when assessing a player that you genuinely dislike, or at least admit that you're not being fair, then I don't see how that is in anyway disingenuous. The problem, as I see it, is that there are a lot of fans who are not objective, but won't admit, even to themselves, that they aren't.

 

[The Effort Police]

I disagree; I don't think that there's anything disingenuous about admitting that you don't like a player on the team that you root for. The only real question is, can you compartmentalize your dislike enough to criticize a player objectively? Actually, I guess that there's another one: do you have enough self-awareness to recognize the impact that your dislike has on how you criticize that player, and are you capable of admitting it to yourself, and to other people?

If you can do that, if you can be fair when assessing a player that you genuinely dislike, or at least admit that you're not being fair, then I don't see how that is in anyway disingenuous. The problem, as I see it, is that there are a lot of fans who are not objective, but won't admit, even to themselves, that they aren't.

That's not what I meant. I don't have a problem with disliking players. What I meant was its disingenuous to dislike a player, know damn well you are better with him, and not care enough that you would rather see him gone anyway. I don't think you can say you are against losing at that point.

Which in turn makes the whole winner argument completely moot.

 

[VF21]

Movable pieces

 

[peacelate]

Thats not what I meant. I dont have a problem with disliking players. What I meant was its disingenuous to dislike a player, know damn well you are better with him, and not care enough that you would rather see him gone anyway. I dont think you can say you are against losing at that point.

Which in turn makes the whole winner argument completely moot.

I don't think it's disingenuous to like a player and know you are better with him but want him gone. Some fans put things like character of a player above their talent. Would Dwight Howard make this team better? Yes. Would I want him on the Kings? Hell no.

 

[roasthawg]

I don't think it's disingenuous to like a player and know you are better with him but want him gone. Some fans put things like character of a player above their talent. Would Dwight Howard make this team better? Yes. Would I want him on the Kings? Hell no.

I agree with this 100%. Sports are purely entertainment. If a player is tough or impossible for you to root for for whatever reason then of course you'd like to see him move on from your favorite team. I'm not there with DeMarcus but I totally agree with the sentiment.

 

[jcwkings]

I disagree; I don't think that there's anything disingenuous about admitting that you don't like a player on the team that you root for. The only real question is, can you compartmentalize your dislike enough to criticize a player objectively? Actually, I guess that there's another one: do you have enough self-awareness to recognize the impact that your dislike has on how you criticize that player, and are you capable of admitting it to yourself, and to other people?

If you can do that, if you can be fair when assessing a player that you genuinely dislike, or at least admit that you're not being fair, then I don't see how that is in anyway disingenuous. The problem, as I see it, is that there are a lot of fans who are not objective, but won't admit, even to themselves, that they aren't.

Here is an objective assesment of Demarcus Cousins from a Kings fan that has seen just about all his games. aka me.

Positives
-The most physically dominant player in the NBA
- Incredible hands allows him to grab almost anything in his vicinity
- Incredibly skilled and fluid for a player his size.
-Good passer with good court vision and basketball instincts.
-Extremely competitive fire, rarely seen in modern NBA players
-Very soft touch, a threat to score from anywhere on the court
- Very good 1 on 1 post defender when motivated
-Uses length, timing and instincts to protect rim and draw charges.


Negatives
-Emotionally volatile, always one bad play/call away from losing focus.
-Compromises team by complaining to refs. Argues for calls instead of running back to defend.
-Tendency to commit silly fouls like hacking at guys in the backcourt or being far too aggressive goinf for steals.
-At times tries to make plays that arent there, turnover prone.
-Poor at covering pick and rolls, teams almost exclusively attack the team by involving him in screen and roll/pop.

Those are all objective facts so I think its silly to label someone a complete joke for calling a star player out for one of his flaws. The problem with the Kingsfans.com and Cousins dynamic is the mods view everything as black and white. You are either on team Cousins or you are a blasphemer that wants him out of town. The truth lies in the grey area. Im a Kings fan, I want the Kings to be good, to blindly have pom poms for Boogie and not call him out for things I feel will improve the Sacramento Kings would make me a blind homer.


The one thing none of us can answer is how much does Cousins antics effect things like team chemistry/morale? Sure teammates will back their teammates to the media(ultimately the NBA is a brotherhood and players will always publically say the right things when it comes to the team). That is something only people in the lockeroom can answer.

 

[swisshh]

I'm just going use this thread to mention that within a week of Vlade saying he's not trading Cousins, I've seen a Fox Sports article listing Cousins as a possible trade and just heard TNT talk about Boston trading for Cousins this year.

It's just comedy at this point.

 

[VF21]

The problem with the Kingsfans.com and Cousins dynamic is the mods view everything as black and white. You are either on team Cousins or you are a blasphemer that wants him out of town.

Patently untrue.

If you bring your opinion with rationale and reason, no problem. If, on the other hand, you only seem to be able to find one note to play - as in "Cousins sucks. He's a cancer and he needs to be gone" - then you're not a blasphemer as much as you're a waste of time for those majority of posters (yourself included) who bring cogent arguments and want to have decent discussions.

I actually think you hit the nail on the head with both your positives and your negatives. You were fair.

Posts like yours promote discussion. Posts of the sort that kill discussion or foment anger are the ones we can do without. People who continually post the latter are a waste of all our time.

#GoKings

 

[mac]

Patently untrue.

If you bring your opinion with rationale and reason, no problem. If, on the other hand, you only seem to be able to find one note to play - as in "Cousins sucks. He's a cancer and he needs to be gone" - then you're not a blasphemer as much as you're a waste of time for those majority of posters (yourself included) who bring cogent arguments and want to have decent discussions.

I actually think you hit the nail on the head with both your positives and your negatives. You were fair.

Posts like yours promote discussion. Posts of the sort that kill discussion or foment anger are the ones we can do without. People who continually post the latter are a waste of all our time.

#GoKings

Just my opinion here but I think far more pro-Cousins/ anti-anti-Cousins posts fall in the latter. Also, none of the anti-Cousins people stoop to name calling that is so often seen from Cousins defenders. As for myself, I haven't said anything bad about Cousins because the past month I thought he's done a much better job of setting guys up and making those around him better. I have hardly any complaints about his play. I still think you cannot blame the roster. Of course Cousins would probably win more given the Spurs roster, the whole point is that we don't have the Spurs roster and that isn't changing anytime soon if perception of Kings is bad, we don't get good draft picks etc. Is Cousins going to recruit another star to come to SAC?

 

[ParniValjak]

I don't think it's disingenuous to like a player and know you are better with him but want him gone. Some fans put things like character of a player above their talent. Would Dwight Howard make this team better? Yes. Would I want him on the Kings? Hell no.

We are talking about a professional sport here where it's all about wins and loses. NBA is not about having good quality human beings representing the teams. It is about having talent to win.

Most of the superstars are arrogant, inconsiderate, self centered pricks that I would not want to be friends with but I sure as hell want them on my team.

 

[VF21]

Just my opinion here but I think far more pro-Cousins/ anti-anti-Cousins posts fall in the latter. Also, none of the anti-Cousins people stoop to name calling that is so often seen from Cousins defenders. As for myself, I haven't said anything bad about Cousins because the past month I thought he's done a much better job of setting guys up and making those around him better. I have hardly any complaints about his play. I still think you cannot blame the roster. Of course Cousins would probably win more given the Spurs roster, the whole point is that we don't have the Spurs roster and that isn't changing anytime soon if perception of Kings is bad, we don't get good draft picks etc. Is Cousins going to recruit another star to come to SAC?

Oh come on. There's been name calling on both sides, but that's not what my post or this thread is about.

 

[Suicide King]

I don't think it's disingenuous to like a player and know you are better with him but want him gone. Some fans put things like character of a player above their talent. Would Dwight Howard make this team better? Yes. Would I want him on the Kings? Hell no.

I see Dwights and Cousins as having totally different character. One is about loyalty and one is the opposite. Just to give one example.

 

[206Fan]

I see Dwights and Cousins as having totally different character. One is about loyalty and one is the opposite. Just to give one example.

hmm. I don't get why people think Howard was unloyal. He served an amazing 8 years in Orlando. Brought them to the playoffs 5 times in that span. 1 conf final, and 1 final appearance. If Dwight wanted to, he could've just left at the end of his contract...leaving Orlando with absolutely 0. His contract would've been over, he could've played anywhere he wanted. Instead, they received a gigantic haul for him.
Dwight didn't really owe Orlando anything. He was basically at the end of his contract. He brought them 5 winning years of basketball. He made it clear to management that he wasn't coming back. If he didn't do that, they would've been rebuilding..with 0 assets.

To paint Dwight in that picture is wrong imo. I wouldn't call Cousins unloyal if he decided he wanted to go somewhere else in FA. That's essentially what Dwight said. I don't know why everyone hated him for it.. think about it. If the Magic lost Dwight for absolutely nothing, they'd be rebuilding with their best player as Ryan Anderson.

i like dwight

 

[Suicide King]

hmm. I don't get why people think Howard was unloyal. He served an amazing 8 years in Orlando. Brought them to the playoffs 5 times in that span. 1 conf final, and 1 final appearance. If Dwight wanted to, he could've just left at the end of his contract...leaving Orlando with absolutely 0. His contract would've been over, he could've played anywhere he wanted. Instead, they received a gigantic haul for him.
Dwight didn't really owe Orlando anything. He was basically at the end of his contract. He brought them 5 winning years of basketball. He made it clear to management that he wasn't coming back. If he didn't do that, they would've been rebuilding..with 0 assets.

To paint Dwight in that picture is wrong imo. I wouldn't call Cousins unloyal if he decided he wanted to go somewhere else in FA. That's essentially what Dwight said. I don't know why everyone hated him for it.. think about it. If the Magic lost Dwight for absolutely nothing, they'd be rebuilding with their best player as Ryan Anderson.

i like dwight

I understand that, I never mentioned Orlando. I am more talking about his overall career path. How did things end with the lakers? How about the Rockets. There is a pattern. Lets see how it goes in his home Atlanta I guess.

 

[KingsFanGER]

The main takeaway from the Celtics game and my biggest knock on Cousins is that defending against the pick&roll is so much easier, when you have an explosive athlete like Willie involved.
To me this is a much bigger problem than Cousins temper. It's a problem Cousins can't fix. As far as I understand athletic ability and strength you either are explosive or you aren't. It's damn hard to become more explosive using training methods and it's likely you will never reach the level of a guy, who is just explosive from the get go, without even working for it.
Now we have to decide if Cousins is a good enough player to overshadow this one weakness. To me this isn't a question, but it's quite a huge problem and I think thats a reasonable stance to take in a league, where everything starts with the high pick&roll and almost every guard can pull up for a 3 off the dribble. It's not Cousins problem alone. IT absolutely destroyed Drummond in the pick&roll for example.
Now Joerger coached one of the best defenses in the league involving 2 bigs, who aren't super mobile and explosive. So after all there is hope we can figure things out. But in 2014/15 the Grizzlies met the Warriors in the second round and it wasn't pretty. They managed to slow the pace, the hung in there, they fought and clawed, only to have a stretch of a few TO's or missed shots and to watch the Warriors go on a 12-0 run by shooting 3's in transition and in pick&rolls.
And now in 2017 we have a league full of Warriors clones and for me it feels like we come to a race with this big ass, mean, intimidating monstertruck, watching everybody else jump into their god damn mickey mouse like Smart-Roadster laughing at us, while referees are standing at the sidelines shouting "only cars with a max of 2000lbs allowed on the racetrack!!!!".
Oh boy how we could crush these fools, if we could only catch them.

 

[peacelate]

We are talking about a professional sport here where it's all about wins and loses. NBA is not about having good quality human beings representing the teams. It is about having talent to win.

Most of the superstars are arrogant, inconsiderate, self centered pricks that I would not want to be friends with but I sure as hell want them on my team.

That's what I've been saying all season about this team, but the general consensus is about culture change. Isn't that why people were happy with Vlade because he's trying to establish a culture over a talented team?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

... Those are all objective facts so I think its silly to label someone a complete joke for calling a star player out for one of his flaws. The problem with the Kingsfans.com and Cousins dynamic is the mods view everything as black and white. You are either on team Cousins or you are a blasphemer that wants him out of town. The truth lies in the grey area. Im a Kings fan, I want the Kings to be good, to blindly have pom poms for Boogie and not call him out for things I feel will improve the Sacramento Kings would make me a blind homer...

First of All™, that bolded statement borders on libelous. Second of All, it's an insult to assume that everyone who "shakes the pom poms" does so "blindly." Some people are "wide-eyed" to the objective "truth," and still choose to "shake the pom poms," simply because it's better for their mental health to accentuate the positive.

Third of All, there are people here who manage to operate in the space between; it's not really that hard. You accused the moderators of seeing Cousins in purely black-and-white terms, but I have been accused of being both a Cousins apologist and a Cousins hater, and y'all can't all be right; frankly, IYAM, I'd say that none of you are right, but mileage obviously varies. Anyone who's been around long enough, and has been paying attention, understands that my attitude towards Cousins is more nuanced than that. The majority of the Grading Consortium is similarly objective, albeit a lot less confrontational. Unfortunately, most people on this message board appear to be either unable or unwilling to express their opinions without resorting to hyperbole, which just perpetuates this asinine back and forth.

The trouble is that there don't appear to be many posters here who are good at expressing themselves through their writing; I'm sure that everybody who posts here thinks that they're expressing themselves reasonably and/or moderately, but that's rarely how it comes across. More often, people who think that they're being reasonable just come across as being accusatory and/or condescending. I don't hold myself above anyone as an exception in that regard, but I try to be self-aware about it. People who are seeking to have less contentious discussion would be well served to not start from the notion that people who may disagree with them are "blind" to the "real truth."

And, let me be clear, I'm not sitting here on some "all opinions are equally valid" tip; I've never been about that. I'm saying that it's a mistake to assume that an opinion in opposition to yours has been formed out of self-delusion, or ignorance, or lack of understanding of the facts at hand. It is possible for two people to have all of the same information, and still come to different conclusions about what the best course of action should be; that doesn't mean that they are not both being realistic, but you certainly wouldn't think that, judging from the posts here.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The main takeaway from the Celtics game and my biggest knock on Cousins is that defending against the pick&roll is so much easier, when you have an explosive athlete like Willie involved.
To me this is a much bigger problem than Cousins temper. It's a problem Cousins can't fix. As far as I understand athletic ability and strength you either are explosive or you aren't. It's damn hard to become more explosive using training methods and it's likely you will never reach the level of a guy, who is just explosive from the get go, without even working for it.

Indeed. We can only hope that there are techniques/habits that he can be taught that would mitigate his lack of explosion on defense. If Joerger would stop putting him out there with another slow big, that might help, too.

 

[parker]

That's what I've been saying all season about this team, but the general consensus is about culture change. Isn't that why people were happy with Vlade because he's trying to establish a culture over a talented team?

I think the culture change is about team ball, playing for each other, believing they can win.

I don't think culture change is bringing in easy going players who aren't talented. Culture change and talent are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Also, culture change doesn't preclude winning; in our case, it would facilitate it.

I think that some of the problem is that changing the culture requires scrubbing out the bad habits, which can involve a full season or even two, in which you're trying to win, but don't actually win. And there are some fans who would only be tolerant of that strategy if we were doing it with kids, instead of with veterans. A lot of people appear to have the expectation that, when you say that you're going to change the culture, and then give up draft picks to bring in veterans, that there needs to be an immediate payoff. I don't know if I necessarily agree that that's a reasonable expectation, as it kind of depends on the quality of the veterans you're bringing in.

 

[kupman]

Load of crap.

I throw this challenge out occasionally to expose the foolishness of the anti-Cuz plank, so tell me:

Vlade Divac, DeMarcus Cousins, Peja Stojakovic, Doug Christie, Mike Bibby...whadya think? Think they might win and win quite consistently? I'll hint you up and point out the obvious: this is a trap.

Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Tony Parker...whadya think?

DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Luc Mbah a Moute, JJ Reddick, Chris Paul...whadya think?


We could go on and on and on with this game, but unless you decided to make a complete fool of yourself over a bleeping plank, your answers to the above should reveal to you that's it's the roster, damnit. Not the star. Give him the teammates and he's suddenly a big time winner too, and much less whining is heard in the Kingdom.

I can totally related to Cousins on a personal level on this issue. I have spent my whole life surrounded by scrubs and morons. Because of it, my true greatness has only been recognized by a precious few who able to see my excellence through all the failures. They get it. If placed on any of the rosters listed above, I too would experience the sweet taste of success and my greatness would then be recognized by the masses once and for all.

I feel ya' Cuz.

 

[ParniValjak]

That's what I've been saying all season about this team, but the general consensus is about culture change. Isn't that why people were happy with Vlade because he's trying to establish a culture over a talented team?

I am happy with Vlade for trying to establish culture and he is doing that. The naysayers will point to the type of personalities on the team and ask "what culture?!" When you have players with track records.

The culture that we are talking about is from the competitiveness of the team and the way the team will play and compete. Not whether or not

 

[ppine]

Cousins has a long list of strengths. Besides his temper, he only has a couple of weaknesses, namely turnovers and getting his shot blocked. It would be great if did not bring the ball down the court so much. Recognizing double teams faster is helping the team and needs to continue. The mental part is the only thing that is troubling.