Joerger: Tanking, incompetent or ? (With poll)

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by GoSACtown, Oct 27, 2017.

?

So what's the deal with Joerger?

  1. Tanking

    7.4%
  2. Incompetent

    9.9%
  3. Competent but frustrating

    21.0%
  4. Just what we need

    24.7%
  5. IT'S ONLY OCTOBER!

    50.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra Well-Known Member

    there are a lot of new players. Im sure he is experimenting with different combinations of players. We are not a good team. We can afford to experiment.
  2. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra Well-Known Member

    You have the perfect avatar for your response.
  3. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Yeah, and the truth is that them getting blasted could be a good learning experience. Now it's about how they respond and their ability to bounce back. Young players get better by failing, if they don't, then they never will so waiting to find out just makes it harder for the organization i.e. see almost any Kings draft pick post Cuz.
    Suicide King and VF21 like this.
  4. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    And for some of them it's a strange and new experience. They didn't get to the NBA by failing. You have to balance the need for them to learn those lessons with the ability for them to absorb the lesson without losing confidence. Look at Quincy Douby.
    King Baller and Suicide King like this.
  5. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    Might be the first time in Fox's career that he faced a player that was as fast as he was, and stronger to boot. Good experience for him. Now he has a measuring stick to go by. I'm very impressed with Bogdan. He may be the best player on the team.
  6. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    No, but to think it doesn't have any weight is lunacy.

    It's the same old reaction when stats are presented in contrary to someone's belief (that they are worthless). The stats are to spark a discussion and to show that Wall isn't a lock for top 3 PG in this league because he isn't even top 5 in any of these impact stats. When did Wall all of a sudden leap frog one of Curry, Westbrook, or Paul? Was it after Wall said he wanted to be MVP? Talking a big game doesn't equate to playing a big game.

    As for Lowry, I consider him to be better than Wall. For one, all three of the impact stats above favor him, and the best of all of them (RAPM) is heavily favoring him. He's a much more efficient scorer than Wall (TS%: .623 vs. .513), doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Wall (TO per100: 3.9 vs. 5.6), rebounds at a higher clip (REB per100: 6.5 vs. 5.7), shoots & spreads the floor better (3PT%: .412 vs. .327), and defends at a higher level & more consistently (DRAPM: 2.26 vs. -1.06; DRPM: 1.18 vs. -1.26; DEF On/Off: -0.9 vs. 2.1). The only thing Wall does more of is assisting and even that has the tradeoff of high turnovers to come with it. Wall is overrated...good, but overrated.
  7. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Those stats (specifically RAPM) are supposed to do a good job at accounting for many variables because it doesn't assign generic/arbitrary values to stats like points, rebounds, assists, steals, etc. It's supposed to account for their team's performance while controlling for his teammates and competition (something RPM & On/Off don't do a great job at). Variables such as a defender having to play a foot closer to his man because he's a good 3pt shooter are factored in, things like hedging screens effectively are factored in, things like setting solid hard screens are factored in, things like picking up your man full court and giving your opponent 15s to get into their set are factored in, & even things like the way your misses come off the rim that could potentially give your team a better chance at an offensive board are factored in.

    Is the stat perfect? No, but are your eyes perfect? No. So would you rather be open to two different sources of info to arrive at a logical conclusion or would you like to turn a cold shoulder to one of them and rely on one source that is more susceptible to bias (your eyes)?

    As for the expansion draft, that's completely different because that factors in age. We're talking about who are the best PGs in the league.
  8. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Agree with you on Bogdan. It's hard to crown him after only a few games but I'm getting ready to.

    As for Fox, I thought he played good defense on Wall. I only recall Wall getting by him once which resulted in a kickout to Porter for a three. And there was one other time that Fox should have closed out quicker which resulted in Wall hitting a three. Everything else was for the most part contested. Wall just happened to be on fire with his jumpshot that game.
  9. Vladizzle

    Vladizzle Well-Known Member

    The only thing funnier than stat geeks in basketball are pretentious stat geeks.
  10. Vladizzle

    Vladizzle Well-Known Member

    Taking the same core team that just made the WCF the year prior to below an 8th seed would almost take effort to decline that much.
  11. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    If you don't have anything to back up your statements, that's fine, but don't expect to be unchallenged.
    VF21 likes this.
  12. Capt. Factorial

    Capt. Factorial Cantry Member Staff Member Contributor

    And where exactly do people tossing out ad hominems and thinking they won the argument land on the funny scale? Asking for a friend.
    Warhawk, VF21 and origkds like this.
  13. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    you're kidding, right?

    are you really going to show this chart and say with a straight face Wall isn't a top 3 PG? He will make a case for MVP this season IMO, just you wait and see. Washington is destined to go deep in the postseason.
  14. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Not kidding at all. Wall is not a top 3 PG. I've given my supporting evidence as to why in the post you quoted and in two other replies above. Feel free to challenge that stance if you would like. I'm curious to see why you think he is a top 3 PG.
  15. Vladizzle

    Vladizzle Well-Known Member

    Wall's shots don't bounce off the rim as effectively per 20 foot shot on a Thursday night as Rubio's do

    Case dismissed.
  16. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    For starters, he plays on both ends. Second, when he doesn't play for Washington, they are a lottery team. Third, He's improved his shooting every year he's been in the league and now that he has a three ball part of his repertoire, forget about it.

    Tell me, if you don't think he's top 3, who are your top 3 PGs?
    Vladizzle and gunks like this.
  17. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Personally, I'd put Wall at number 2, right behind Steph.
  18. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    The impact Wall has on his team can't be told solely by looking at the numbers. I mean, you could, but it won't tell the whole story. If you simply watch the game with the naked eye and stats aside, you see the team is night and day with/without him.
    gunks likes this.
  19. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    For the most part, I agree with you. Fox did stay right with Wall on the defensive end. The one criticism I have is that he started the game off "giving" Wall the wide open 3 point jump shots. He probably did so because the scouting report and coaching staff said to do so. But the problem was that he took too long to adjust and start guarding him out there once Wall started hitting those shots. To me, that is just due to his inexperience. I doubt that happens the next time that they meet. Overall, Fox's defense has been very impressive to me.
  20. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    Regarding Wall, he's a monster on offense and defense, except in the closing minutes of games when his team really needs a closer. If the Wizards really want to vie for a championship Wall has to take the next step and be that closer; otherwise they need to find another guy on that team to be the closer.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  21. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    like every star player, he won't make all the clutch shots. You make some, you miss some. Besides, he has Beal there to take pressure off of him, Beal has come a long way since his rookie season and he is just as vital to the the Wiz success as Wall is, they compliment each other to a tee.
  22. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Where did you get those numbers? What games do they represent?
  23. CelticsFan

    CelticsFan Active Member

    Beal and Buddy are 6 months apart in age
  24. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    He CAN play on both ends but his lack of defensive impact says he doesn't do it consistently.

    What data do you have to back up your 2nd point? Not doubting it but I'm sure you have some evidence to back up such a claim.

    Not sure where you got this from. He hasn't improved every year. He's improved since coming into the year but his longe range shooting is still one of his weaknesses.
    upload_2017-10-30_20-31-2.png

    Curry, Westbrook, & Paul.
  25. chief bromden

    chief bromden Well-Known Member

    That's the biggest downside to Buddy for me. He is young, but not that young.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  26. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    That's precisely what the stats I posted are supposed to do. They are supposed to measure ones impact on the game, his contribution to winning, etc. but let's not pretend like I'm only leveraging stats. Watching the games and advanced stats go together. Omitting one can leave you more susceptible to error.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  27. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    You can find all of those stats online. They represent last season.
  28. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    I was just thinking about this yesterday but was thinking of Cauley-Stein in the same context as well. I wouldn't mind trying to make a deal for Anunoby if we don't see more out of these two.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  29. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    He's made it a goal of his to be first team all-nba defense this season and when he puts his mind on something, he will bust his tail on that end. Let's see where he ends up in seasons end.

    John has been pretty reliable since entering the league but if you go back to the 2012-2013 season where he only played 49 games, the Wiz won 29 games that season. I know it's only one season where he has missed significant time but I've watched the Wizards for a decade now and I can tell you first hand even when he doesn't play for a few games, the team loses more times than not.

    It's still early in the season but at the moment he is shooting 33% from 3. He will hover around the 33-36 range for the season before it's said and done. Besides, he doesn't need to shoot 35%+ from deep in order to be considered elite and a top player for his position.




    I give you Curry & Russ, but Paul? Let's hear your reasoning behind this selection.
  30. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    that little chart you posted really doesn't say much, how recent is it? where did you get it from? provide some links. Show me the full chart of what you are looking at.

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