First rebuild impressions - split from game 2 thread

[bajaden]

I suspect that, for a fair number, lack of enthusiasm for JT may have its origins in comparison with Anthony Randolph. He was, after all, the guy a lot of mocks had us taking, he made perfect sense for our roster, and I'm sure that I wasn't the only Kings fan who, on that draft night, was chanting his name while waiting for the pick. It didn't bother me too much that JT got picked instead, in most of the obvious ways they are very similar, and while I had doubts about his defense as compared to Randolph, I was willing to give Geoff a chance to show that he'd made the right choice.

So, we went through last year, and Nellie made sure that we wouldn't get too jealous -- as always, he left his rookie shorted on minutes (< 18 mpg). Randolph remained a semi-unknown quantity. And JT showed slow but steady progress through most of the season.

But then Summer League came along. Randolph looked like a HOFer, and JT looked like he absolutely did not give a damn. Sure, it's SL, and some bad players have looked great there. It proves nothing. And yet, I think that Randolph has now shown enough of his potential that he's established a presumption that Geoff goofed. Rather than just accept Geoff's judgment on the matter, I think more are now wanting JT to prove that he was the correct pick... if he can.

I'm thinking that's where some of the relative lack of enthusiasm for JT is coming from. It's partly him, but it's also the competition.

JT did explain his play in summer league. Now whether you buy it or not is up to you, but it did make sense. I assume you read the explaination, but if not, he had put on another 20 pounds or so by working out, and probably not eating right. He was trying to add some bulk, probably because he had been told he was going to play some center. Anyway, when he got to summer league he felt like he couldn't move. He had lost his explosiveness and court speed.. He has since dropped weight and is moving well again.

I'm really hoping for a settlement with the Ref's. The worse thing that can happen to JT is to have rookie ref's calling the shots.

 

[HighTopKicks]

I guess I'm a little confused on the Thompson issue. At the end of last season most on this fourm were pleased with Thompsons first year and what the future might hold. Now, for some reason, before he's even played a real season game, he's no longer anyone we can hang our hat on. If he can develop into a 15/10 guy, then he's capable of playing on any championship team, depending on whose on the team with him. Every player on a championship team doesn't have to be a star player, they just have to fit. It would certainly help if he became a star player though. It took Steve Nash 5 or 6 years to figure things out. Kobe simply wasn't very good his first year, and was no great shakes his second year.

Players that come right in, especially 18 or 19 year old players, and look like they belong the first year are rare. Go look up other PF's stats for their first year in the league and I think you'll find Thompson's compare favorably. So the huge question is, how much growth will occur in his second year? That reamains to be seen. But I'll have a much better idea just how good he'll be after this year depending on his improvement.

I have to agree with fnordius a little bit. Maybe some are wishing we had drafted Randolph, but some like myself just don't believe that JT has a very high ceiling. He's got good size and speed but limited hops. He'll improve on the skill level, but is a long long way away from being a Center.

I gave him props last year for his play a PF, and wanted to see improvement at penetration and defense (especially without fouling). But, in VSL he played Center which he is not. No left hand, no back to the basket moves , and cant keep anyone out of the paint. His game against Oden was to say the least pathetic. I believe, that there was a reason that PW started May at center & even Thomas, rather than JT.

JT can have a good career at a PF. Maybe center, if he ever develops some low post move and learns how to battle without fouling. But, for now, he needs to work on his PF skills, and the Kings aren't doing him any favors playing him at all 3 front court positions.

 

[bajaden]

I have to agree with fnordius a little bit. Maybe some are wishing we had drafted Randolph, but some like myself just don't believe that JT has a very high ceiling. He's got good size and speed but limited hops. He'll improve on the skill level, but is a long long way away from being a Center.

I gave him props last year for his play a PF, and wanted to see improvement at penetration and defense (especially without fouling). But, in VSL he played Center which he is not. No left hand, no back to the basket moves , and cant keep anyone out of the paint. His game against Oden was to say the least pathetic. I believe, that there was a reason that PW started May at center & even Thomas, rather than JT.

JT can have a good career at a PF. Maybe center, if he ever develops some low post move and learns how to battle without fouling. But, for now, he needs to work on his PF skills, and the Kings aren't doing him any favors playing him at all 3 front court positions.

I would agree with the last statement. I think he's our future PF, and thats where I would like him to play. Hopefully thats where he'll spend most of his time this year. As far as his ceiling. Ask me in two years and then I'll have a pretty good idea. But right now its way way too early to tell.

The only break he's gotten is playing time. Otherwise he's been jacked around by the Kings since he got here. He's had to deal with two coaches and two different systems. He's now on his third. He's been asked to play three different positions, and still performed pretty well when you consider everything. All these things could eventually help him down the road, but for now, he just needs some stability.

 

[mac]

Perhaps we should ask Kingsdotcom to convey our message to spence about playing in the post. I recall one video where he asked Hawes if he was going to lead the league in 3 pointers or something to that effect. Now those are the kind of messages that are going to keep our Center out on the perimeter chucking 3s. They have to stop!!

 

[Bricklayer]

I suspect that, for a fair number, lack of enthusiasm for JT may have its origins in comparison with Anthony Randolph. He was, after all, the guy a lot of mocks had us taking, he made perfect sense for our roster, and I'm sure that I wasn't the only Kings fan who, on that draft night, was chanting his name while waiting for the pick. It didn't bother me too much that JT got picked instead, in most of the obvious ways they are very similar, and while I had doubts about his defense as compared to Randolph, I was willing to give Geoff a chance to show that he'd made the right choice.

So, we went through last year, and Nellie made sure that we wouldn't get too jealous -- as always, he left his rookie shorted on minutes (< 18 mpg). Randolph remained a semi-unknown quantity. And JT showed slow but steady progress through most of the season.

But then Summer League came along. Randolph looked like a HOFer, and JT looked like he absolutely did not give a damn. Sure, it's SL, and some bad players have looked great there. It proves nothing. And yet, I think that Randolph has now shown enough of his potential that he's established a presumption that Geoff goofed. Rather than just accept Geoff's judgment on the matter, I think more are now wanting JT to prove that he was the correct pick... if he can.

I'm thinking that's where some of the relative lack of enthusiasm for JT is coming from. It's partly him, but it's also the competition.

I think this is probably about right. I was hoping for Randolph at our pick -- just seemed to have the most "star" potential of the remaining guys. I was ok with Thompson being the guy though. At least he had legit size after so many years of midget ball, and I had hopes for him as a defender/rebounder. But a year later...Thompson never entirely sold me last year -- I continue to think the super-hustle was potentially disguising some talent issues there, and the defense...just goes to show you how little being a good defensive big at a small school means. Throw in the age factor and, while you just have to wait -- I remember Otis Thorpe taking until his thrid year to really blossom -- the ceiling may not be that high. Meanwhile Randolph is beginning to show flashes of that star stuff.

As an aside, I have said Petrie does a good job drafting, and he does. But he has missed out on a number of special stars over the years, often in the very years he gets the most credit for the picks he did make. Peja = steal! Until you realize that Steve Nash and Jermaine O'Neal were the next two picks. JWill = helped turn the franchise! And then you realize that Dirk Nowitzki and Paul Pierce were two of the next three. This could be that same thing happening again if Randolph does indeed turn out to have "it".

 

[bajaden]

As an aside, I have said Petrie does a good job drafting, and he does. But he has missed out on a number of special stars over the years, often in the very years he gets the most credit for the picks he did make. Peja = steal! Until you realize that Steve Nash and Jermaine O'Neal were the next two picks. JWill = helped turn the franchise! And then you realize that Dirk Nowitzki and Paul Pierce were two of the next three. This could be that same thing happening again if Randolph does indeed turn out to have "it".

Well I'm not going to go back and revisit those picks and try to justify them. They are what they are, and as they say, hindsight is 100%. Although one could make a good argument that people we passed on ended up being better, by no means were our picks busts. As for Randolph. I liked him, and if we had picked him I wouldn't have been upset. Thompson was my player of choice for several reasons. One that you touched on was that he had legit size, and we needed that. He also had ballhandling and passing skills. And we needed that. He also was someone that just might be available when we picked. And we needed that.

One could also make the argument that Randolph had all those qualities too. But there were several issues. We needed a PF, and Randolph certainly didn't look anything like one. He looked like a SF. A tall SF, but still a SF. He also was reported to have charactor issues which I won't go into again. So all in all Thompson looked like the right choice at the time, and, if one looks to the needs of the team, he still does.

Now if Randolph turns into a superstar, or even one level below that, then he probably gets the nod, depending on how Thompson turns out. But as you know, its hard to predict superstars unless their name is LeBron. No one knew, except maybe Jerry West, that Kobe would turn out to be, well, Kobe. So its hard to fault Petrie on his choice of Thompson. By the same token, it would be hard to fault him had he chosen Randolph.

 

[bajaden]

whereas you brought up Thorpe, and most on this fourm would consider him a pretty good player, I thought people might want to see his stats for his firs three years as a comparison. The only stats I'm giving are the minutes, points and rebounds. If anyone wants the rest, go look them up..

First year: 23 MPG, 12.8 PPG, 6.8 RPG

Second year: 22 MPG, 9.9 PPG, 5.6 RPG

Third year: 36 MPG, 18.9 PPG, 10.0 RPG

His first year is remarkably close to Thompsons first year. Thompson averaged about one more rebound a game. And as Bricky said, it was Thorpe's third year that he broke out and elevated his game. Folks, thats not the exception, thats the norm. If you looked at Thorpe's second year, you would say he regressed. Lets get rid of him. And you would have made a mistake. Well the Kings did get rid of him and they did make a mistake. But thats another story..

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I hated it when we drafted Thompson the past year...and he's changed my mind just a bit after his rookie season--at least he proved that he was a solid role player, at the bottom (while he was what many considered a "safe" pick, I thought that his bottom was a fringe player due to his lack of bread-and-butter). If you want to review my vitriol that night, here it is. He has a good PF frame with good athleticism, so he can definitely hold his own in the league...but being that he's not a freak in either category, if he wants to be any further than just a good role player he'll need to enhance his skillset.

He showed some aspects of a solid PF with good rebounding and finishing ability, and the foundation of a jumper, but everything else was a bit hectic--his jumper was very mediocre and in particular kept getting blocked, he struggled to handle the ball and garnered many offensive fouls, and defensively he struggled, was a hack/foul maniac and didn't have his blocks translate well to the league (although that was expected). To his credit he made a good final impression particularly in the last month, where he averaged a double-double and cut is turnovers, so he did learn to adjust to the speed of the game so that hopefully would carry over to this year.

So currently defense, ballhandling, and jumpshooting are the primary concerns--three different aspects of the game, which might be enough to hinder him from being a star given that he's already quite advanced in his age for a 2nd year player. His jumper is definitely the easiest thing to correct and if that's the only thing he improves on while maintaining his other rookie traits that would probably make him a 4th man on any team. He did slow it down more at the end so I think the turnover problems will start to decrease as well, and if and whenever he gets that down pat he'll be a quasi-David West type, although I do question his handles. The defense...I'm just not sure. He works hard and has mobility, but he's just very foul prone and can't block shots...his last four months with us were absolute foulfests--these aspects tend to be ingrained in your game in some fashion.

So I think the real upside is sort of a David West type player, but I just foresee him as being a 3rd-4th man when all's said and done.

 

[Kingster]

On an individual basis they are pretty close, but put those two on the Lakers and I don't think they would be as successful. Bynum on a bad team would probably put up 16-11-2, Gasol we already know what he does on a bad team. Hawes, and Thompson are just average players on a bad team.

Well, Thompson and Hawes aren't as experienced, but they are comparable in talent. So if you add a superstar like Kobe Bryant to the mix, I could envision some NBA championships down the line. The argument that Hawes and Thompson just could never play significant minutes on a championship team doesn't hold water with me.

 

[Kingster]

I think this is probably about right. I was hoping for Randolph at our pick -- just seemed to have the most "star" potential of the remaining guys. I was ok with Thompson being the guy though. At least he had legit size after so many years of midget ball, and I had hopes for him as a defender/rebounder. But a year later...Thompson never entirely sold me last year -- I continue to think the super-hustle was potentially disguising some talent issues there, and the defense...just goes to show you how little being a good defensive big at a small school means. Throw in the age factor and, while you just have to wait -- I remember Otis Thorpe taking until his thrid year to really blossom -- the ceiling may not be that high. Meanwhile Randolph is beginning to show flashes of that star stuff.

As an aside, I have said Petrie does a good job drafting, and he does. But he has missed out on a number of special stars over the years, often in the very years he gets the most credit for the picks he did make. Peja = steal! Until you realize that Steve Nash and Jermaine O'Neal were the next two picks. JWill = helped turn the franchise! And then you realize that Dirk Nowitzki and Paul Pierce were two of the next three. This could be that same thing happening again if Randolph does indeed turn out to have "it".

Wait a minute. You're the guy who wanted Thabeet over Evans because you wanted a shot blocker in the middle and was tired off the wussiness of the Kings. Now you want in hindsight Randolph over Thompson? Can you imagine the stick figures of Randolph and Martin guarding anyone? You'd have to put on special 3D glasses to even see them out on the court. Talk about the all-wuss team. We'd never hear the end of it, and you'd be leading the chorus.

I agree about Pierce and Nowitski, two of my age-old pet peeves. As you know, those mistakes were made because of the clamor for a point guard by fans and media. At least Petrie didn't make the same mistake twice by picking Rubio.

 

[fnordius]

whereas you brought up Thorpe, and most on this fourm would consider him a pretty good player, I thought people might want to see his stats for his firs three years as a comparison. The only stats I'm giving are the minutes, points and rebounds. If anyone wants the rest, go look them up..

First year: 23 MPG, 12.8 PPG, 6.8 RPG

Second year: 22 MPG, 9.9 PPG, 5.6 RPG

Third year: 36 MPG, 18.9 PPG, 10.0 RPG

His first year is remarkably close to Thompsons first year. Thompson averaged about one more rebound a game. And as Bricky said, it was Thorpe's third year that he broke out and elevated his game. Folks, thats not the exception, thats the norm. If you looked at Thorpe's second year, you would say he regressed. Lets get rid of him. And you would have made a mistake. Well the Kings did get rid of him and they did make a mistake. But thats another story..

A different perspective:

-------------------------------Points/48---------------Rebounds/48------Blk/48-----FG%
Thorpe's rookie year----26.3----------------------13.9-------------------0.9-------.600
Thorpe's third year-------25.1----------------------13.3-------------------0.9-------.540

The only areas Thorpe really improved in were decreasing his fouls and TO. JT needs that, to be sure. But if his productivity in other areas is static or declines, that will be a pretty small triumph.

 

[tiptmark73]

First rebuild impressions split from game 2 thread

"if you were my second son, i wouldnt care; but for a King, its not possible Not possible. We give up what we want, when we want power. Believe me. Now do you want to show me you have the heart to be king, show me you can control it? wrestle it to the ground, numb it with ice, but you cant be what God made you, not if you mean to take my place."

 

[hammystyle]

Well, Thompson and Hawes aren't as experienced, but they are comparable in talent. So if you add a superstar like Kobe Bryant to the mix, I could envision some NBA championships down the line. The argument that Hawes and Thompson just could never play significant minutes on a championship team doesn't hold water with me.

I'm not going to discount the possibility that with really significant improvement Hawes and Thompson could be championship contributors, but that doesn't make them comparable in talent to Gasol and Bynum. Bynum is the same age as Hawes and younger than Thompson and is significantly better offensively and defensively than both of them. Though you can certainly dock him for injuries. Pau Gasol is in another stratosphere. A top 10 player in this league and a potential HOFer. Not to demean our guys who are nice prospects, but they don't deserve to be compared to the best frontline in the NBA.

 

[Chupacabra]

I'm not going to discount the possibility that with really significant improvement Hawes and Thompson could be championship contributors, but that doesn't make them comparable in talent to Gasol and Bynum. Bynum is the same age as Hawes and younger than Thompson and is significantly better offensively and defensively than both of them. Though you can certainly dock him for injuries. Pau Gasol is in another stratosphere. A top 10 player in this league and a potential HOFer. Not to demean our guys who are nice prospects, but they don't deserve to be compared to the best frontline in the NBA.

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Gasol is neither of those things. Bryant, James, Wade, Anthony, Howard, Paul, Nowitzki, Arenas, Garnett, Duncan, Parker, Williams are all better and ive left out quite a few that come before Gasol. Gasol is nowhere near being on a HOF pace either. Had to get that straight.

 

[fnordius]

Well, to try and be objective...

PER is a kind of stupid stat, because it almost completely ignores defense. Just the same...

NBA players by PER
14. Pau Gasol 22.3
24. Andrew Bynum 20.0
30. Kevin Martin 19.25
(no other Kings in the top 50)

Roland Rating is a much better balanced stat.

NBA players by Roland Rating
18. Pau Gasol +7.3
38. Kevin Martin +4.9
49. Andrew Bynum +3.9
136. Jason Thompson -0.6
169. Beno Udrih -2.5
171. Francisco Garcia -2.5
200. Spencer Hawes -6.0

Basketball-reference gives him a 10% chance of getting into the HOF (as of right now), which is 25th best of current NBA players. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_active.html

 

[TaxMan]

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Gasol is neither of those things. Bryant, James, Wade, Anthony, Howard, Paul, Nowitzki, Arenas, Garnett, Duncan, Parker, Williams are all better and ive left out quite a few that come before Gasol. Gasol is nowhere near being on a HOF pace either. Had to get that straight.

Like it or not, but Gasol on a Lakers team that could potentially win at least one or two more championships in his playing days...is certainly a potential HOFer. And I can't imagine many, if any, GMs taking Arenas over Gasol at this point in their careers.

 

[hammystyle]

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Gasol is neither of those things. Bryant, James, Wade, Anthony, Howard, Paul, Nowitzki, Arenas, Garnett, Duncan, Parker, Williams are all better and ive left out quite a few that come before Gasol. Gasol is nowhere near being on a HOF pace either. Had to get that straight.

With Garnett you don't know if he's healthy and if he'll ever be the player he was. Arenas shouldn't be in this discussion. I think most GM's would take Gasol over Parker because one is 7' and the other us 6'. Either way, if he's not top 10, then he's top 15. And he's almost a lock for the HOF based off international achievements alone.

Maybe I exaggerated a tad, but the point is that Hawes and Thompson are no where near this guy and probly never will be. That's no knock on them, he's just REALLY good.

 

[Kingster]

I'm not going to discount the possibility that with really significant improvement Hawes and Thompson could be championship contributors, but that doesn't make them comparable in talent to Gasol and Bynum. Bynum is the same age as Hawes and younger than Thompson and is significantly better offensively and defensively than both of them. Though you can certainly dock him for injuries. Pau Gasol is in another stratosphere. A top 10 player in this league and a potential HOFer. Not to demean our guys who are nice prospects, but they don't deserve to be compared to the best frontline in the NBA.

When the Kings played the Lakers last year with their young bigs on the court, they weren't dominated on the inside. Far from it. They held their own. And that was playing with a one year guy and a two year guy and having a coaching chaos carousel. Odom did present special challenges because of his athleticism at the three, and Kobe just does what he wants out there, but the Kings match up well at the center and pf positions. Apparently you don't think Hawes and Thompson can be legit starters in the league. I do.

 

[hammystyle]

When the Kings played the Lakers last year with their young bigs on the court, they weren't dominated on the inside. Far from it. They held their own. And that was playing with a one year guy and a two year guy and having a coaching chaos carousel. Odom did present special challenges because of his athleticism at the three, and Kobe just does what he wants out there, but the Kings match up well at the center and pf positions. Apparently you don't think Hawes and Thompson can be legit starters in the league. I do.

No I just recognize the gap between "legit starters" and "best frontcourt in the league". You do not.

 

[Kingster]

No I just recognize the gap between "legit starters" and "best frontcourt in the league". You do not.

You think the Lakers have the best frontcourt in the league?

 

[hammystyle]

You think the Lakers have the best frontcourt in the league?

Bynum C, Gasol PF and backup C, Odom backup PF. Who's better than that?

 

[AriesMar27]

Bynum C, Gasol PF and backup C, Odom backup PF. Who's better than that?

exactly.... maybe the celtics with kg/perkins/wallace/davis... but thats about it..... i couldnt think of a team with a better front court than the lakers... their only weakness is pg.... at sf they have artest....

all we have is an above average sg that doesnt play defense....

for the record pau gasol is a borderline future hall of famer, not just because he plays for the lakers but because of his international play as well. gasol is on the cusp of becoming the best foreign born player in the nba not named tim duncan and probably the best european born player in the history of the nba. that is until ricky rubio comes over to the nba, lol.... joking of course.

 

[hammystyle]

exactly.... maybe the celtics with kg/perkins/wallace/davis... but thats about it..... i couldnt think of a team with a better front court than the lakers... their only weakness is pg.... at sf they have artest....

all we have is an above average sg that doesnt play defense....

for the record pau gasol is a borderline future hall of famer, not just because he plays for the lakers but because of his international play as well. gasol is on the cusp of becoming the best foreign born player in the nba not named tim duncan and probably the best european born player in the history of the nba. that is until ricky rubio comes over to the nba, lol.... joking of course.

Or maybe Orlando with Howard/Lewis/Bass/Gortat. Mostly just because Howard is so good and getting better.

But those are really the only teams in the argument, and I think the Lakers is the deepest and most versatile.

 

[Oprostaj]

Wait a minute. You're the guy who wanted Thabeet over Evans because you wanted a shot blocker in the middle and was tired off the wussiness of the Kings. Now you want in hindsight Randolph over Thompson? Can you imagine the stick figures of Randolph and Martin guarding anyone? You'd have to put on special 3D glasses to even see them out on the court. Talk about the all-wuss team. We'd never hear the end of it, and you'd be leading the chorus.

I agree about Pierce and Nowitski, two of my age-old pet peeves. As you know, those mistakes were made because of the clamor for a point guard by fans and media. At least Petrie didn't make the same mistake twice by picking Rubio.

Agreed about the first part, altough at this point I would not be averse to having Randolph and trading KMart. SG is the easiest position to find what KMart brings - scoring. Get a good defensive SG that puts up 12 ppg, and you're set if Randolph is that "star". Nobody says that if you draft Randolph you keep KMart forever. Whatever, just throwing it out there.

About Pierce and Nowitzki... we're not the only ones who dropped the ball there, and like someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. International ballers were not a hot commodity, and Dirk was special - a big guy that lived on perimiter? Not sure I would have pulled the trigger. Pierce was another story, but even he did not "evolve" into the player he is now for a couple of years.

 

[Kingster]

Agreed about the first part, altough at this point I would not be averse to having Randolph and trading KMart. SG is the easiest position to find what KMart brings - scoring. Get a good defensive SG that puts up 12 ppg, and you're set if Randolph is that "star". Nobody says that if you draft Randolph you keep KMart forever. Whatever, just throwing it out there.

About Pierce and Nowitzki... we're not the only ones who dropped the ball there, and like someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. International ballers were not a hot commodity, and Dirk was special - a big guy that lived on perimiter? Not sure I would have pulled the trigger. Pierce was another story, but even he did not "evolve" into the player he is now for a couple of years.

I wanted Nowitsky before the draft, not after, so it was more like pre-sight rather than hindsight. Dirk didn't just live on the perimeter either. I saw him in the McDonald's All American game and he took it to the hole repeatedly. (And yes, he was invited to the game even though he was German). The public perception, and especially the Sac media perception, was that Nowitsky wouldn't go to the USA. Nelson obviously thought otherwise. And Pierce was an incredibly fluid athlete on the floor in college. I really think Petrie buckled under the public opinion pressure on that one. In fact, if memory serves, Petrie's statements after that draft deftly omitted saying that Jason Williams was the highest player on the board, but he did talk a lot about the need at the pg. All in all, though, I like Petrie in the draft room, and I'm glad we'll have a high pick next year because we'll probably get another very good player.

 

[Kingster]

Bynum C, Gasol PF and backup C, Odom backup PF. Who's better than that?

I think Orlando obviously showed who had a better front line last year. Also, talking about the frontcourt includes the small forward, which shouldn't be included, as we're talking about Hawes and Thompson. As I already said, the Kings have (or at least had) no answer for Odom. We're talking about Gasol and Bynum. So how many bad teams could you put those guys on and still have them stay bad? (Obviously deleting the current center and power forwards from those teams). Probably a heckuva lot. We already had part of that experiment in Memphis. Add Bynum to that team. Do you think they become a playoff contender? I highly doubt it.

 

[hammystyle]

I think Orlando obviously showed who had a better front line last year. Also, talking about the frontcourt includes the small forward, which shouldn't be included, as we're talking about Hawes and Thompson. As I already said, the Kings have (or at least had) no answer for Odom. We're talking about Gasol and Bynum. So how many bad teams could you put those guys on and still have them stay bad? (Obviously deleting the current center and power forwards from those teams). Probably a heckuva lot. We already had part of that experiment in Memphis. Add Bynum to that team. Do you think they become a playoff contender? I highly doubt it.

The experiment worked out pretty well when Gasol was by far the best player on three consecutive playoff teams. A more recent example was the Lakers were a 42 win team in 06-07 and a 65 win champion last year. That's a +23 win total due almost entirely to the addition of Gasol, and Bynum's development. If you add 23 wins to most of the lottery teams they would make the playoffs.

 

[TheFifthMookie]

Woo. welcome to "Lakersfans.com". Please take that conversation back to LA. thanks.

 

[Kingster]

The experiment worked out pretty well when Gasol was by far the best player on three consecutive playoff teams. A more recent example was the Lakers were a 42 win team in 06-07 and a 65 win champion last year. That's a +23 win total due almost entirely to the addition of Gasol, and Bynum's development. If you add 23 wins to most of the lottery teams they would make the playoffs.

So the question is, you take the current starters at center and power forward off the current Memphis team, you put Gasol and Bynum at those positions, how many wins do you think they get?

 

[Bricklayer]

Wait a minute. You're the guy who wanted Thabeet over Evans because you wanted a shot blocker in the middle and was tired off the wussiness of the Kings. Now you want in hindsight Randolph over Thompson? Can you imagine the stick figures of Randolph and Martin guarding anyone? You'd have to put on special 3D glasses to even see them out on the court. Talk about the all-wuss team. We'd never hear the end of it, and you'd be leading the chorus.

I agree about Pierce and Nowitski, two of my age-old pet peeves. As you know, those mistakes were made because of the clamor for a point guard by fans and media. At least Petrie didn't make the same mistake twice by picking Rubio.

There's no hindsight about it -- I was a Randolph guy on draft night. Just a fact. That was the guy I thought we should go for, for the reasons I stated. I was ok with the Thompson pick because I was not that sold on Randolph, and Thompson seemed to have some of the markers you look for in a PF. However a year later, and you may just not have been paying attention here, but Randolph is beginning to splash up some big impressive numbers. He got stronger every month of last season, was up to 15.1pts 10.6rebs in April of last year, dominated summer league, and has averaged 14 and 10 with 1.6 blks through the preseason in 28min per. The promise that I suspected was there last year is now really evident to everyone. I always figured low end was a new Donyell Marshall, but increasingly it looks like if Don Nelson doesn't mess with his head, this could be a major and unique star like a bigger Shawn Marion maybe. And as always in the draft, star, at whatever position > solid position player.

That last BTW is the same reaosn that I was ok with Tyreke on draft night. I had tagged Griffith, and then three players: Thabeet, Jennings, and Rubio as guys with a special talent at something. And Thabeet's happened to be a special talent in an area we desperately need. But a star > role player too in the draft, if you can find one. Until Tyreke's emergence, it did not appear there was necessarily going to be one available at our spot, Rubio had all the questions hanging over him, and I was developing a sincere dislike of Jennings' maturity. Under such circumstances the roleplayer with the special skill > a middling starter or guy with issues. But have a guy wiht star potential emerge, and of course that trumps.

As for Pierce/Nowitzi etc., I was just setting the record straight. Nothing annoys me more than people trying to oversell Petrie's record, whether through excessive fandom or just ignorance. Its just a fact he has missed on stars in the past. It should be noted that I have defended the JWill pick in the past -- it was a critical pick for the franchise, even though Geoff missed on more talented types. Not just JWill's talent, but his flair. I called my brother the night we made that pick and told him he was going to like that kid -- I had seen him a lot on this coast, and he had never seen him out West. I also had a bad read on Pierce -- thought he was going to be nothing more than a 15-17ppg midrange jumpshooter ala a Calbert Cheaney or a Ron Mercer. And of course had never heard of Dirk. But my observation wasn't about me missing, it was about Geoff missing -- done it before, may have done it again. Which makes him no different than any other GM. Doesn't make our draft a failure -- we got a serviceable big guy out of it who still might improve. But it is naturally going to tamper enthusiasm about it from people who had bee thinkign Randolph, and then have to watch him become a star for someone else.