First rebuild impressions - split from game 2 thread
- Thread starter Chupacabra
- Start date
I am still a bit iffy on this rebuild.. I don't think we are actually going anywhere with it. Last three years in my opinion I think we drafted a soft 3pt shooting center who is the clone of Brad Miller in his latter years, a career roleplayer who whines too much, and a player the Kings are forcing to play out of position because we already have a better scoring option at SG. I would much rather have Thorton, Randolph, and Jennings/(or the other guy). Can't tell me that wouldn't have been a more exciting team to watch than what we have out there right now.
Right now in my opinion I believe the Kings have flatlined and will be so until someone brings the paddles in and shocks some life back into this rag tag group of misfits.
Right now in my opinion I believe the Kings have flatlined and will be so until someone brings the paddles in and shocks some life back into this rag tag group of misfits.
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You're entitled to your opinion, but I think its way to early to have such a negative viewpoint on this rebuilding proccess. Rebuilding takes years, and I would argue that it didn't officially begin until we were able to get rid of artest, miller, and salmons, as well as the other garbage players on the roster last year.
We don't even know what we have in these guys yet. You don't like JT or Hawes, your not high on Tyreke, and you won't give these guys a chance to develop. You're going to be miserable as a kings fan over the course of the next decade, becasue you seem to disagree with everything this team does.
We don't even know what we have in these guys yet. You don't like JT or Hawes, your not high on Tyreke, and you won't give these guys a chance to develop. You're going to be miserable as a kings fan over the course of the next decade, becasue you seem to disagree with everything this team does.
That something is probably not acquiring a backup center though. 
At least not that alone. To cure the affliction you note, it is indeed either ping pong balls or a major trade. The backup center thing...emerging from the summer without one was ridiculous, but unless we can find a talented young one available, which they rarely are, its not worth trading away some of our future potential just for a short term patch. Maybe for one of our long term vet deals.
At least not that alone. To cure the affliction you note, it is indeed either ping pong balls or a major trade. The backup center thing...emerging from the summer without one was ridiculous, but unless we can find a talented young one available, which they rarely are, its not worth trading away some of our future potential just for a short term patch. Maybe for one of our long term vet deals.
The pickings were slim in the freeagent market this summer for someone of significance. So without making a trade, we weren't going to get anyone much better than Ely. I liked Fesenko, but we would have had to get into a bidding war with Utah over someone thats still in the potential stage. But hey, Jake Voskul, Stromile Swift and Robert Swift are still out there. Just kidding!
So I think its wait till next year, barring a midseason trade before the deadline. There's a couple of possibilities in the next draft, but its not deep in centers. However, the next freeagent class is loaded with centers, from backup to starting. There's Chris Bosh, Joel Przbilla, Amare Stoudemire, Kwame Brown, Jermine O'Neal, Shaquille O' Neal, Brandan Haywood, Marcus Camby, Yao Ming, and many others, plus, for those whow are in love with him, Kyrylo Fesenko.
Now I grant you that some might cost too much or be too old for a rebuilding team, but the likelyhood of getting a good backup, or possibly a starting center, if thought needed after this season, are much better next offseason. So the FO's collective school of thought may be that the money would better spent next year. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know for sure. They could just be flying on the cheap. But my gut tells me that the Maloof's are willing to spend the money, but only on a quality player. We'll see!
I like JT, I like Hawes... I just don't think that they will be difference makers. They might be 15-10 players but the team will still be a 30 win team. As for Tyreke.. Yes.. I think he can make a difference.. Not at PG though.. I think he could be a Brandon Roy type player who could make the whole team better.. But I think the Kings are holding him back by putting him at PG. I don't think he belongs there, and don't think he would be there if we didn't have Martin.
K
If you play fantasy sports then you know that Thornton has potential but can't be consistent offensively or defensively and has issues rebounding consistently, Randolph hasn't shown more than JT on the professional stage yet to even compare the two as players (oh yeah, he did well in the summer league, yet remember Donte got 40 points in the SL too last year, he's tearing it up now ain't he....wait, didn't Douby go nuts a few times in SL?) and from the looks of Jennings stats in preseason he turns the ball over as much as Tyreke yet is shooting more. And that 'other guy' ain't even playing in the league this year and there was no guarantee he would be even if the Kings had drafted him.
Gary, you've watched basketball a long time, and you know it takes at least three years for a big man to develop. I don't know how good or bad Hawes and Thompson are going to be, but I know its way too early to pass judgement on them. Its all about progress, and until the real season starts, with hopefully real ref's, we don't know if either one of them has made any progress.
If I were to venture a guess, I would say that Thompson has the higher ceiling and probably will be the better player of the two.. He's athletic, durable and dedicated. I'm starting to question Hawes dedication a little, but, I'll wait till the season starts and see. As far as Evans goes. When I first suggested we draft him because I thought he had the best chance of being a star along with Griffin, I didn't care what position he played. If the Kings think he can play the point and he thinks he can play the point, then fine, lets see. But can we stop passing judgement on people after two preseason games. It might take Evans a couple of years to refine himself at the point position. And if he morphs into a Dwyane Wade type of player along the way, whats the problem?
The main point is that I think he can be a star in this league, and the Kings desperately need a star. So if he plays the point a little differently and is still a difference maker, I'm fine with that. I'm not going to nic pic over the fact that he's not Stocktonesque. Evans is loaded with talent. He's learning to play the point guard position in the best basketball league in the world by on the job training at the age of 19. So let me see. I'm shocked, that in his second preseason game in the NBA, playing with players he's had little chance to play with before, and, learning a new system at the same time, he made 6 turnovers. DUH! Yeah, I'm stunned! I expected him to go out there and dish out 14 assists and only have 2 turnovers. Can we have a little reality check here please?
If I were to venture a guess, I would say that Thompson has the higher ceiling and probably will be the better player of the two.. He's athletic, durable and dedicated. I'm starting to question Hawes dedication a little, but, I'll wait till the season starts and see. As far as Evans goes. When I first suggested we draft him because I thought he had the best chance of being a star along with Griffin, I didn't care what position he played. If the Kings think he can play the point and he thinks he can play the point, then fine, lets see. But can we stop passing judgement on people after two preseason games. It might take Evans a couple of years to refine himself at the point position. And if he morphs into a Dwyane Wade type of player along the way, whats the problem?
The main point is that I think he can be a star in this league, and the Kings desperately need a star. So if he plays the point a little differently and is still a difference maker, I'm fine with that. I'm not going to nic pic over the fact that he's not Stocktonesque. Evans is loaded with talent. He's learning to play the point guard position in the best basketball league in the world by on the job training at the age of 19. So let me see. I'm shocked, that in his second preseason game in the NBA, playing with players he's had little chance to play with before, and, learning a new system at the same time, he made 6 turnovers. DUH! Yeah, I'm stunned! I expected him to go out there and dish out 14 assists and only have 2 turnovers. Can we have a little reality check here please?
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Speaking as one who wanted us to draft Randolph, but was pretty content with our getting JT, and who likes JT, there are differences, in real NBA games. Per minute played, Randolph gets two and a half times as many blocks as JT does, along with about 20% more rebounds. For a team like ours, that matters.
My lord! My grammar was completely disgusting in the thread starter. That's what I get for posting with only 10 minutes before I go to work.
So, what have we got so far? Tyreke is about as good at playing PG as Beno is bad, which is good for a rookie (make sense?) Martin is still not gonna win a game by himself, and our front line looks aggressive, if a little thin on talent. We will probably have to pray for perfect health in order to reach 30 wins (which is what I hope for.) Our team's inexperience is glaring, let's hope they can gel and at least bring us a solid effort every night.
I secretly hope they test Beno and Evans in the same lineup against the Lakers frequently on the 15th. I want an observation of him as a SG lining up against Kobe. Just for argument's sake.
So, what have we got so far? Tyreke is about as good at playing PG as Beno is bad, which is good for a rookie (make sense?) Martin is still not gonna win a game by himself, and our front line looks aggressive, if a little thin on talent. We will probably have to pray for perfect health in order to reach 30 wins (which is what I hope for.) Our team's inexperience is glaring, let's hope they can gel and at least bring us a solid effort every night.
I secretly hope they test Beno and Evans in the same lineup against the Lakers frequently on the 15th. I want an observation of him as a SG lining up against Kobe. Just for argument's sake.
The thing is I don't like where Hawes is taking his game.. It's fine to shoot a 3 now and then since he obviously can do it but to sit out there all the time just gets tiresome. He came out of college with one of the best post games for someone his age ever (in any draft) and all of a sudden he's jacking up three after three.. I just hope coach drills it in his head that he's not a guard..
As for Thompson He's not really great at anything but good at a lot of things. I know it was his first year but even in college you could tell his game screamed role player. Plus he's no spring chicken in NBA terms. It's not a bad thing because teams need guys like JT if they are to succeed.. He brings the intangibles. But I don't think the team will win any championships with both him and Hawes as your starting PF/C.
As for Thompson He's not really great at anything but good at a lot of things. I know it was his first year but even in college you could tell his game screamed role player. Plus he's no spring chicken in NBA terms. It's not a bad thing because teams need guys like JT if they are to succeed.. He brings the intangibles. But I don't think the team will win any championships with both him and Hawes as your starting PF/C.
I like that statement. It's true.. You see Beno play and it's like "ehhh" not good, not bad (most of the time) just average backup type play. Like if we have Anthony Johnson starting. Evans gives you much much better overall play but his PG skills I say the same.. "ehhhhh". Maybe he can learn and maybe he wont..
Have to disagree with you here. In my opinion, the chances of Randolph getting to all-star status (and potentially superstar status) is much much higher than JT. I really do like JT, but just can't get very excited about his game. Randolph is a bolt of energy who could very well lead the league in rebounding and blocks one of these years....granted, he plays out of control at times and could get himself killed by throwing his body around....but I really doubt there will be much debate regarding the relative value of JT and Randolph after this year.
It should be noted....Randolph plays on the smallballin Warriors, and as such his rebounding numbers are inflated. It could be argued that JT would average just as many rebounds (if not more) if he was on that team.
As far as shot blocking....Randolph leaves JT in the dust.
I was hoping Petrie would jump on it when GS wanted to get rid of Randolph, but Petrie doesnt really jump on anything, and we probably didnt have pieces they wanted anyways. Randolph is looking like he may very well have a better career then JT, but considering that at the time of the draft he was a 6'11 player who weighed under 200 lbs...You cant exactly spite Petrie for passing over him, thats some major bust potential.
As far as shot blocking....Randolph leaves JT in the dust.
I was hoping Petrie would jump on it when GS wanted to get rid of Randolph, but Petrie doesnt really jump on anything, and we probably didnt have pieces they wanted anyways. Randolph is looking like he may very well have a better career then JT, but considering that at the time of the draft he was a 6'11 player who weighed under 200 lbs...You cant exactly spite Petrie for passing over him, thats some major bust potential.
We used to waive guys like Jabari Smith and Jerome James. Now, if something happens to our starter, they're our only option.
I realize that the economy's bad and all, but they had some resources to allocate this summer. Bigs of the non-stubby sort seem to have been very low on our list. Not everybody's going to agree with prioritizing that way.
I realize that the economy's bad and all, but they had some resources to allocate this summer. Bigs of the non-stubby sort seem to have been very low on our list. Not everybody's going to agree with prioritizing that way.
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Not necessarily faulting Petrie for passing on him (because as you mention he had obvious red-flags), but just saying that at this point, I would very much prefer to have Randolph on the team. He's now apparently a legit 7 foot and has put on 20 pounds of muscle in the off-season. I watched pretty much all of his games last year. While I think he'll always be "thin" and will never be a bruising power forward, in my opinion his overall impact on games will be much greater than JT for many years to come. But...we shall see...
I agree with you on Hawes. I don't have a problem with him taking a three on occasion, especially if left wide open and he isn't the first option. But I really want to see him down low. I still believe that someone had to influence him to sit on the perimiter. In college he seldom shot from the perimiter.
If Thompson can become a 15 and 10 guy that plays good defense, then I'm fine with that. I think he has a higher ceiling than that, but I could be wrong. But he's hardly an old man. Come on, he just happens to be one of those rare players that went to college for four years. So did Jordan, Stockton, Malone, and countless others that ended up playing 12 to 14 years in the league. So the guy is hardly over the hill. One other important factor with Thompson that I keep pointing out is his durability. Some people bounce back off the floor, and others break. So far he's proven to be a bouncer.. Another point is that players that have late growth spurts traditionally take longer to develop. Your a guard one year and a center the next. It takes time for them to get used to their body's.
Footwork and cutting down on his fouls should be his goal this year, along with using his left hand more. With emphasis on the fouls. He's of no value to us sitting on the bench.
If Thompson can become a 15 and 10 guy that plays good defense, then I'm fine with that. I think he has a higher ceiling than that, but I could be wrong. But he's hardly an old man. Come on, he just happens to be one of those rare players that went to college for four years. So did Jordan, Stockton, Malone, and countless others that ended up playing 12 to 14 years in the league. So the guy is hardly over the hill. One other important factor with Thompson that I keep pointing out is his durability. Some people bounce back off the floor, and others break. So far he's proven to be a bouncer.. Another point is that players that have late growth spurts traditionally take longer to develop. Your a guard one year and a center the next. It takes time for them to get used to their body's.
Footwork and cutting down on his fouls should be his goal this year, along with using his left hand more. With emphasis on the fouls. He's of no value to us sitting on the bench.
First off, their two different types of players. JT is a PF/Center, and Randolph is a SF/PF. Their both around the same height, but JT probably outweighs Randolph by 50 pounds. Personally I would like to have both players.
At draft time there were a lot issues surounding Randolph including a rep for having a bad work ethic, such as being late for practices or being lazy in practice. It was also reported that he didn't show up for a scheduled tryout and didn't notify anyone. Don't know if all of this is true or not, but perception is what affects the decisons of GM's.
I'm not sure that the Warriors were really shopping Randolph. Could be that they were just trying to light a fire under him. I don't think anyone doubted his talent, just his charactor.
At draft time there were a lot issues surounding Randolph including a rep for having a bad work ethic, such as being late for practices or being lazy in practice. It was also reported that he didn't show up for a scheduled tryout and didn't notify anyone. Don't know if all of this is true or not, but perception is what affects the decisons of GM's.
I'm not sure that the Warriors were really shopping Randolph. Could be that they were just trying to light a fire under him. I don't think anyone doubted his talent, just his charactor.
Siding with Gary on this one although I really want to withhold judgement until this season is almost over. Like bajaden said, big men typically take three years to develop (or at least, three years to see what you really have). The same rule also applies to PG's, as this is a very difficult position to learn. Of course, there's always that rare fluke player who develops in his late 20s.
However, to add to Gary's thoughts, my gut is that Hawes and Thompson can be good players, but not championship-caliber frontcourt players. I think Thompson can be a starter if he keeps improving (but not a great starter), Hawes I'm not so sure about - we'll see what he can do this season. I'm pretty sure that Evans is no PG, although as a fan I have a glimmer of hope that he'll become the next Michael Ray Richardson (problem-free, of course) - again, we'll see.
However, to add to Gary's thoughts, my gut is that Hawes and Thompson can be good players, but not championship-caliber frontcourt players. I think Thompson can be a starter if he keeps improving (but not a great starter), Hawes I'm not so sure about - we'll see what he can do this season. I'm pretty sure that Evans is no PG, although as a fan I have a glimmer of hope that he'll become the next Michael Ray Richardson (problem-free, of course) - again, we'll see.
I guess I'm a little confused on the Thompson issue. At the end of last season most on this fourm were pleased with Thompsons first year and what the future might hold. Now, for some reason, before he's even played a real season game, he's no longer anyone we can hang our hat on. If he can develop into a 15/10 guy, then he's capable of playing on any championship team, depending on whose on the team with him. Every player on a championship team doesn't have to be a star player, they just have to fit. It would certainly help if he became a star player though. It took Steve Nash 5 or 6 years to figure things out. Kobe simply wasn't very good his first year, and was no great shakes his second year.
Players that come right in, especially 18 or 19 year old players, and look like they belong the first year are rare. Go look up other PF's stats for their first year in the league and I think you'll find Thompson's compare favorably. So the huge question is, how much growth will occur in his second year? That reamains to be seen. But I'll have a much better idea just how good he'll be after this year depending on his improvement.
Players that come right in, especially 18 or 19 year old players, and look like they belong the first year are rare. Go look up other PF's stats for their first year in the league and I think you'll find Thompson's compare favorably. So the huge question is, how much growth will occur in his second year? That reamains to be seen. But I'll have a much better idea just how good he'll be after this year depending on his improvement.
I have to disagree with you on this. Gasol has proven that he can be productive on any team, but things became much easier for him on the Lakers. Bynum is a completely different story IMO. If he wasn't on the Lakers, most of us would talk about him as just one more stiff we might want to get as a back up center. He has foul problems on the Lakers. Imagine what they would be on another team. I also have found it interesting how many players from the Lakers have NOT faired to well after going to another team. This is not a coincidence IMO.
I never made any comparison between the 2 frontcourts. I was referring to Gary's claim that Bynum would put up better numbers on a bad team. I tend to think his numbers get inflated because of the better players around him. Similar to how Perkins numbers got better when Garnett and Allen appeared on the scene. It is amazing how mediocre players look better when they are the 4th or 5th player the defense looks at when putting together their game plan.
Ok, lets be fair here. Gasol has played in the league for 8 years, and before that, he played professionally in europe. So lets take Thompson. He's played in the league 1 year. So to compare Thompson to Gasol today is ridiculous. That would be like comparing Kobe in his first year to Jordan at the same time. So in truth, there is no fair comparison.
So lets take both of their first years. Gasol averaged 36.7 MPG, 8.9 RPG, and 17.6 PPG, and he was playing on a bad team. Thompson averaged 28 MPG, 7.4 RPG, and 11.1 PPG, and he was playing on a bad team.
So how does that break down. Gasol scored averaged 1 point every 2 minutes and Thompson averaged 1 point every 2.5 minutes. Gasol averaged 1 rebound every 4.1 minutes and Thompson averaged 1 rebound every 3.7 minutes. So in their first year, the numbers compare favorably. Does that mean that Thompson is going to be as good a player as Gasol. NO! But it does mean he could be. And, you draft a player based on what you think he might become, not what he is right now.
As a side note. I know people on this very fourm that made comments about Gasol being unathletic and just another overrated euro player. I heard few complimentry comments about him, until he was traded to the Laker's. Suddenly, he became a great player. Its amazing how good you can become when your surrounded by other good players and have a good coach.
So lets take both of their first years. Gasol averaged 36.7 MPG, 8.9 RPG, and 17.6 PPG, and he was playing on a bad team. Thompson averaged 28 MPG, 7.4 RPG, and 11.1 PPG, and he was playing on a bad team.
So how does that break down. Gasol scored averaged 1 point every 2 minutes and Thompson averaged 1 point every 2.5 minutes. Gasol averaged 1 rebound every 4.1 minutes and Thompson averaged 1 rebound every 3.7 minutes. So in their first year, the numbers compare favorably. Does that mean that Thompson is going to be as good a player as Gasol. NO! But it does mean he could be. And, you draft a player based on what you think he might become, not what he is right now.
As a side note. I know people on this very fourm that made comments about Gasol being unathletic and just another overrated euro player. I heard few complimentry comments about him, until he was traded to the Laker's. Suddenly, he became a great player. Its amazing how good you can become when your surrounded by other good players and have a good coach.
I suspect that, for a fair number, lack of enthusiasm for JT may have its origins in comparison with Anthony Randolph. He was, after all, the guy a lot of mocks had us taking, he made perfect sense for our roster, and I'm sure that I wasn't the only Kings fan who, on that draft night, was chanting his name while waiting for the pick. It didn't bother me too much that JT got picked instead, in most of the obvious ways they are very similar, and while I had doubts about his defense as compared to Randolph, I was willing to give Geoff a chance to show that he'd made the right choice.
So, we went through last year, and Nellie made sure that we wouldn't get too jealous -- as always, he left his rookie shorted on minutes (< 18 mpg). Randolph remained a semi-unknown quantity. And JT showed slow but steady progress through most of the season.
But then Summer League came along. Randolph looked like a HOFer, and JT looked like he absolutely did not give a damn. Sure, it's SL, and some bad players have looked great there. It proves nothing. And yet, I think that Randolph has now shown enough of his potential that he's established a presumption that Geoff goofed. Rather than just accept Geoff's judgment on the matter, I think more are now wanting JT to prove that he was the correct pick... if he can.
I'm thinking that's where some of the relative lack of enthusiasm for JT is coming from. It's partly him, but it's also the competition.
So, we went through last year, and Nellie made sure that we wouldn't get too jealous -- as always, he left his rookie shorted on minutes (< 18 mpg). Randolph remained a semi-unknown quantity. And JT showed slow but steady progress through most of the season.
But then Summer League came along. Randolph looked like a HOFer, and JT looked like he absolutely did not give a damn. Sure, it's SL, and some bad players have looked great there. It proves nothing. And yet, I think that Randolph has now shown enough of his potential that he's established a presumption that Geoff goofed. Rather than just accept Geoff's judgment on the matter, I think more are now wanting JT to prove that he was the correct pick... if he can.
I'm thinking that's where some of the relative lack of enthusiasm for JT is coming from. It's partly him, but it's also the competition.