Discussion in 'Personnel moves' started by sactowndog, Nov 13, 2017.
Was about to say this. Why on earth would they give up Saric for Hill lol
Heh heh, I'm guessing that my close friend, The Blob, had some negative things to say about me. What's that old saying, "Sometimes its better to appear stupid, than to open one's mouth and confirm it". But in the spirit of Christmas, I wish him a happy holiday! As for Ball, your right, I had some serious reservations about him. I didn't question his passing ability, or his court vision, but I did question his jumpshot, and his ability to defend in isolation. So far, he's done nothing to relieve me of those worries. So while I thought he would be drafted before Fox, I had Fox ahead of him on my personal board. I would have had Smith ahead of him as well if Smith had shown a little fire at N.C. State instead of coasting at times.
With that said, I do think that Ball is figuring out how to adapt to the NBA. I think the Lakers will figure out a way to hide him on defense with a good team defense system. But at some point he has to re-tool his shot. Best done in the off-season. I would like to point out, that because I might be critical of a player in some areas, that doesn't mean I think he'll be a bust, or that I don't like that player. I certainly don't wish any player failure. Anyone that's been a player, supports other players and understands what their going through. We need to remember that they're human beings, not robots. They get up in the morning just like we do, and sometimes don't feel like going to work, just like we do. The difference is that, yes, their getting paid big bucks, but they're also under a magnifying glass where everything they do is exaggerated. How many of us had the kind of responsibility on their shoulders that Ball, Fox or any of the top rookies have at age 19?
I agree with you and doubt that Philly would interested in Hill. But they will have some holes to fill at years end. Reddick will be an unrestricted freeagent as will Amir Johnson and Trevor Booker. Lets us not forget that Embiid is also up for an extension, which will be a massive jump in salary. All that said, they'll be way under the cap (about 50 million) and will have the ability to spend some big bucks. Hey Lebron, do you want to play with Embiid for a year or two? Why not?
Been thinking about the Capt's post, and I feel the need to explain how I arrive at the conclusions I have. First, yes I usually qualify what I say. I do my best to not post in absolutes. In other words, I do my best to not say this player will never be a star, or the opposite of that. And the reason is, I'm not God! I don't have a crystal ball, and god knows, I've been wrong about as many times as I've been right over the years. So everything I post is opinion, other than the stats or whatever information I accumulate to back up my opinion. I also have info from some NBA scouts that I respect and along with that, I watch an insufferable amount of games on a daily basis. I watched five games yesterday, and still have many recorded that I have to get to.
Watching a lot of games doesn't make me or anyone else an expert. If you don't have other information go along with watching the games, your handicapped out of the box. It's like looking at nothing but stats and thinking you know everything about a player. For instance, yesterday Bagley scored 32 points. OK, that's great, but how many did he score on dunks? How many were 15 to 18 foot jumpshots? Now you can get those stats broken down, but in general, you know more if you actually watched the game. Young is tearing up college ball right now, but would he be doing that if he played on the Florida St. team where the coach constantly rotates players in and out of the game ever 3 or 4 minutes? I don't think so! So then how would you know how talented he is. Would he be the next Kyle Kuzma, whose talent was hidden by the system he played in? Point is, the system a player plays in contributes heavily to what you might see on the court. You need to know the systems to make an educated opinion.
My theory is that if you watch enough games of a player, you'll get enough glimpses of his talent to make that educated opinion, with emphasis on the word opinion. Make no mistake, I think my opinions are the correct one's just like everyone else. And I continue to believe that until I'm proven wrong. But, I will admit when I'm wrong. That said, being wrong comes in degree's. By that I mean, you can predict a player to become a superstar, and the best he becomes is a solid rotational player. Been there, done that! So in the strict sense of the word, I was wrong, but, the player wasn't a bust. He was still a good, just not a great player! The other side of the coin is when you predict that a player will be a solid rotational player, and then they become an all star. Klay Thompson springs to mind. I thought he would be a good player in the NBA, but never imagined in my wildest dreams he would be this good. Ditto Kawhi Leonard!
Anytime your dealing with human beings, your playing with a lot of unknowns. You can measure the talent and the physical attributes of a player, but it's hard to measure his heart, his desire to be great. Especially when he now has 5 or 6 million dollars in the bank and he's only 18 or 19 years old. Was his hard work and desire up to that point to simply make it to the NBA and get that big paycheck, or was it to become the greatest player in the history of the NBA? I want players that would play the game for nothing just to prove their the best. I want players that play because they love playing the game. They love the competition. Those attributes won't always make them superstars, but it will make them the best player they can be with the god given gifts they have. That's all anyone can ask.
My advice to anyone that's trying to form an opinion, is to not read what the draft boards are saying. Other opinions can bias your own, whether you want them to or not. Of course if you don't want to put in the work, I suggest you only read my opinion, because I'm always right!
Long wings who can shoot are hard to find. Doncic is my choice because I fear Porter’s injury. If you have had one back problem you will likely have others. Bagly intrigues me also.
You guys are starting to sell me on Doncic. Guess I need to to watch some film on him.
He sells himself he’s a stud
Just a basic pros and cons list:
Good ball handler
Only an average athlete
Questionable quickness, he settles for step back 3pt shots a lot, makes you wonder if he's not comfortable getting by players?
Position?? no one knows his official measurements. Will he guard SGs or SFs?
Can play SG but is best suited to SF especially as a “point forward”. He is a genuine talent. Will be a star. I have watched a lot of European basketball in my time. Seen some of the greatest players in the last 30 odd year to come out of Europe and none of them has done what Dončić has done at the same age. Maybe the late Dražen Petrović comes close but certainly doesn’t overtake him.
Luka’s basketball IQ will make up for his athletic “shortcomings”. Kings won’t get a chance to draft him. He will be long gone by the time Kings are on the clock.
In the remote chance that Kings get that chance, Vlade is picking him without blinking.
If the later part is true, then I think we have to move on from Fox. Lots of people have said they can co-exist, but I don't see it. Both are PGs who need the ball in their hands to be most effective. Playing with Hill, Fox takes himself completely out of the game. He just hovers at the corner 3, and he's not even effective because no one respects his shot. You can play Doncic off-ball, but do you really want him in a catch and shoot role?
I'd play Doncic as the fulltime PG. If Ben Simmons can do it, so can Doncic.
Your pretty spot on with your description. The only place I might differ a bit is with his ability to get by players. I think in general he takes the path of least resistance. However, I've seen him break the ankles of a lot of players and go right past them. To be honest, he reminds me a lot of Trae Young in that everything he does seems to have a purpose. Meaning, that if he needs to get by someone and get into the lane, he can, or will. If he's looking for his own shot, he might just do a jab and step back. You have to admit, he's pretty dammed good at hitting that shot.
You can't assume that the Fox you see now is going to be the Fox you'll see in a year, or two years from now. I've said it a million times, that the PG position takes the longest of any NBA position to develop. PG's that are either in, or will be in the HOF, took three to four years to develop into what they finally became. Fox is a very intelligent and gifted athlete. You don't just try him out for a few months, and then discard him. He's an investment, and he's going to take time. Fox isn't the only rookie that's had his struggles, most of them have. The NBA figures out what you like to do, and then they take it away. From that point on, it's on the player to start making adjustments to his game, and to his body if necessary.
A lot of people on this forum, including myself, loved Cousins. But does anyone think the rookie Cousins, could beat up on the current Cousins? Not a chance in hell. The Cousins you see today is a far superior player to the one that first arrived on the scene. There were people on this forum that wanted to trade him off after his first season here. This nonsense of giving up on a player after half, or a whole season needs to stop. I realize that we live in an instant gratification society, but players shouldn't be considered a disposable item.
I’d say he’s a SF part time PF in a couple of years. At 19 he’s already 220 with a 6’11 wingspan 8’9 reach that’s melo and Bron size I believe.
Also if we play this right we should be 2nd worst team by seasons end behind Atlanta in place for a top 4 pick. That way we could package the pick and Hield to say Atlanta and Memphis or the pick and WCS to Phoenix or Boston.
You'd trade a top 4 pick plus one of our best young guys to move up a couple spots in the draft? The top 4/5 is going to be loaded in this draft. No reason to make a trade if you're already up there.
I disagree. Luka is a half-court playmaker—a basketball genius, really. But, Fox can still push tempo, hunt for early offense opportunities, and get us into our set. Luka can be a point forward, creating shot opportunities later in the clock and on crucial possessions.
Silly. Teams can never have enough playmaking if we've learned anything over the last 5 seasons and the Warriors run on dominance.
And it's not like there's some rule where they have to play every minute on the floor together. Just do the CP3/Harden, Steph/Dray/KD mode where you cycle their minutes and you get 48 minutes of a quality lead ball-handler.
Yes yes I would Doncic is a franchise type player and I don’t think anybody else in the draft is.
There's a difference between being a playmaker and being a ball handler. Everyone on the Warriors except their C can shoot. Fox alone can't shoot.
2 ball dominant ball handlers with one that can't shoot? I don't see it working unless Fox massively improves that shot of his. At this stage, I wouldn't say Fox is much of a playmaker yet.
But would you really want Fox off-ball in the halfcourt? I know he'll keep improving, but he's looked terrible next to George Hill. Maybe it's the clogged up floor spacing with ZBo, but he's completely ineffective. If Fox is your guy moving forward, I don't think he's someone you want to split ball handling duties with. Fox's entire game revolves around the ball in his hands. Just don't see the two working out.
Again, this is the giant problem you run into when you have a PG who can't shoot.
Look, Fox can shoot the ball, especially the mid-range shot. He shot that shot well in highschool, and at Kentucky. Where he was inconsistent was with the 3 pt shot. Guess what, Dennis Smith Jr. is struggling with his shot as well. So is Josh Jackson. Fox's shot will improve. Part of the reason Fox hasn't looked as good as we might have hoped, is because of Hill in my opinion. Once Hill has the ball in his hand, he dribbles most of the shot clock away, or he shoots the damm thing. I've been watching Fox, and he is moving without the ball, but the ball isn't coming back his way at times. Some things you can't control, but your not responsible for what you can't control. Fox is at his best when he's the only PG on the floor, and I wouldn't call him a ball stopper. In the last game, he seldom kept the ball more than 4 to 5 seconds without moving it, or shooting it. He needs to shoot the ball more than he has. I'm tired of seeing him and a lot of his teammates passing up open shots.
For those interested in seeing Trae Young play, he's on ESPNU today at 6m when Oklahoma takes on Oklahoma St.
In no particular order, I like Young, Doncic, & Porter the most from this draft class. As I mentioned in another post, I'm starting to drift away from drafting a big man so high in the draft unless they are an absolute freak. The top teams in the league right now are not led via big men they are led mostly by perimeter players. I think hand checking rules, the fact that refs tend to call the same contact a foul for smaller players vs. big men, & the evolution of the 3 ball have a lot to do with it.
Right now, we have the 5th worst record. I don't think that is high enough to draft Doncic so it might be that one of Young or Porter are available (considering that Ayton & Bagley go high as well).
I would potentially even explore a deal that sends out Fox (or Fox & another asset) to draft both Young & Porter. The Suns & Magic don't really have a PG of the future at the moment so they could have some interest. For example, it could be Fox & Cauley-Stein for #5 & Dudley. We'd then take Young & Porter with the two first round picks and have a young core of:
PG - Young / Mason
SG - Hield / Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Porter / Jackson
PF - Labissiere
C - Giles / Papagiannis
Not to mention, we would have all of those players mentioned above under contract during the 2019 offseason while also having approximately $66 mil in cap space. That's excellent flexibility.
We are 1 game away from 2nd to last place.
Lakers will get Lonzo and Lopez back
Memphis will get Conley back
Orlando should play good enough for us to be lower.
We will be bottom 3.
If Fox gets traded especially in a package with wcs Vlade should be fired.
Great minds think alike. I added that user to my list a long time ago. Ain't got time for that kind of nonsense.
If it results in one of Doncic, Young, or Porter, why?
Because that's the same treadmill we've already been on for years. We don't even know who Fox is yet. If you believed in him enough to draft him 5th overall you have to give him some time to develop before casting him aside for the next big thing. Trae Young is absolutely demolishing college basketball right now to an extent that I haven't personally seen in a long long time. But what's going to happen if we trade Fox for him... isn't it possible he struggles with the physicality of the NBA in his first season too and gets exposed defensively? Then we're in exactly the same place we are now except Fox has got a year of experience under his belt and maybe he's starting to show his potential for some other team in a much improved second season like Kris Dunn is in Chicago right now. It's very rare that a player just gets it from day one. Even Embiid and Simmons in Philly who both looked like sure-thing stars as soon as they stepped on the court had a whole year to learn and work with the coaching staff before getting into games (make that two years for Embiid). Now that I think about it, that might not be a bad idea for every team to "redshirt" their rookies for a year and let them watch and learn from the sidelines before throwing them into the fire.
I will grant you this, in terms of finding the right combination of players to compliment each other it may make sense to swap out a non-shooter like Fox for a lights out shooter like Young if you're also getting Doncic to run your offense. I can see how that makes sense on paper. But I also think it's the wrong instinct to assume that you already know who Fox will develop into. Even Lebron James who came into the league with more hype than any other prospect in this generation was a non-shooter as a rookie and look how far he's come since then. Freakin Kevin Durant of all people shot 28% from three for an entire season in Seattle and everyone knew he was going to be special as a shooter coming out of college. It takes time, especially when these guys come into the league on last place teams with bad rosters and, in many cases, mediocre coaching. Not to mention, there are countless examples of teams with multiple playmakers benefiting from those overlapping skillsets and it's quite possible that De'Aaron Fox becomes good enough with his jumpshot to at least keep defenses honest. Have we already forgotten how impossible he was to stay in front of at Kentucky? A guy who can get into the lane against one-on-one defense whenever they want is always going to be valuable to an offense. Smart players will know how to play off a guy like that.
In general I think fans tend to overreact on young players almost as soon as they're drafted. It's like the whole "buy a new car and it loses a huge chunk of it's value as soon as you drive it off the lot" philosophy and that's too bad. Because if you love their potential enough to draft them, you shouldn't start looking around for better options the first time they get on the court and, get this, actually struggle a little.
You trade our pick plus one of Skal, buddy, or wcs if Giles shows something. You don’t trade Fox and WCS that’s absurd.
And only for Doncic I’m not trading up for anyone else
I already have your stance: "That's absurd", "Vlade should be fired", etc.
I'm asking why? Give me an explanation.
I think you have made a lot of the insinuations against me in your post that are false. I love Fox. I was ecstatic when we drafted him at #5, and I'm still ecstatic to this day that he's on this team. Just because I like other prospects more than Fox and think they have higher ceilings than him, it does not equate to me hating Fox or giving up on him.
How many 7 foot guys canwalk down the street without tripping? Willie has tremendous physical gifts in my opinion. He has a lot of hop and gets off the floor really fast. He runs like a gazelle. He needs to play more in control. It is not a question of coordination. Bogdan is an example of a player that is in control almost 100% of the time. Willie gets wild especially in the low post. He doesn't need to. I think you are confusing playing under control with coordination or the lack of it. Willie has a motivation problem much more than any physical limitations.
You don’t give up WCS and Fox who are talented for a draft pick that’s too big of a gamble. Unless you think that player is generational type player and Doncic is the only one in the draft I think is.
Also you don’t give up Fox he looks good when he had space and is 19 look at Dunn he had one of the worst rookie seasons last year now he’s at 17-6 I believe. If I team asks for Fox for us to get another puck I’m stating at let’s say 5 taking Porter to pair withFox.