Yes to Q&R without Maloofs?

[bringbackbobby]

For the past couple of months, I've been actively talking to as many people as I can about Q&R, always assuming that the city/county and the Maloofs would be able to come together and get this thing ironed out. Now that we are getting really close to the election and it still isn't done, I'm beginning to wonder how I should vote if the two are still in disagreement.

In my recent post I guessed at 3 options for the Kings/Monarchs if Q&R were to pass without the two coming to an agreement. They were as follows:

1) Leave Sacramento. If the new arena passes and the two never come together to agree on certain concessions (i.e. parking spaces, etc., etc.) that the Maloofs deem necessary to sustain the organization, then they will need to find a home more financially able to support them.

2) Stay. Play out of the new facility, regardless of the perceived shortcomings of the new arena, and therefore eat the additional revenue stream (or lackthereof) that the parking spaces, concessions, etc., would have given them.

3) Stay and somehow build an additional arena to their own specifications and needs through private funding.

Is this the way the rest of you see it? Are there other options for the Kings? Arco can't be retrofitted and it will soon be too obsolete to continue maintaining it - so staying and playing in Arco is only a short term solution.

If these are the only options, assuming that you are all kings fans and 1) want the kings to stay, and 2) would also like to see the railyards revitalized...

How will you vote on Q&R if the two never come together?

I've seen posts that say "The kings won't automatically leave if Q&R fails", my question is...

...might the Kings be forced to leave if Q&R passes?

 

[kennadog]

Yes, I see another. Most of the problems the city and Maloofs are trying to work out, would likely not be a problem if the arena's in Natomas or possibly another non-downtown site.

Yes, the city would like to have it downtown, as would I. That doesn't mean that in the end, the city/Maloofs work it out for another location (most likely the current site).

 

[VF21]

Will the Kings be forced to leave if Q&R passes? I seriously doubt it.

Q & R could still result in the railyards being developed without the new arena as part of it. In fact, the developer has long maintained that he would just as soon NOT have the arena in the mix as it eats up valuable acreage that could be used for more revenue producing structures.

If the arena isn't part of the development, then the public is paying for the railyard project plain and simple and none of the money is going to the Maloofs.

If the city/county wants to come up with a different way to contribute to the building of a new Arco, there are ways they can do so that don't require public voting. That might, in fact, be the eventual outcome.

The Maloofs have said they're not going to give up on Sacramento. If Q & R does pass, they'll find a way to work out the details and get the new arena built. They'd be insane not to...

 

[bringbackbobby]

Will the Kings be forced to leave if Q&R passes? I seriously doubt it.

Q & R could still result in the railyards being developed without the new arena as part of it. In fact, the developer has long maintained that he would just as soon NOT have the arena in the mix as it eats up valuable acreage that could be used for more revenue producing structures.

If the arena isn't part of the development, then the public is paying for the railyard project plain and simple and none of the money is going to the Maloofs.

If the city/county wants to come up with a different way to contribute to the building of a new Arco, there are ways they can do so that don't require public voting. That might, in fact, be the eventual outcome.

The Maloofs have said they're not going to give up on Sacramento. If Q & R does pass, they'll find a way to work out the details and get the new arena built. They'd be insane not to...

I would think so as well, and perhaps I'm playing devils advocate here but if that were true, you'd think they would have contributed to the campaign regardless of the fact that the details haven't currently been solidified.

Also, I've heard on many occassions that the city/county plan to move forward with an arena regardless of whether or not that includes the kings. Just as an entertainment facility.

Just thinking out loud, and feel free to strike the thread if I'm way off base, but I've heard people say that the Kings want Q&R to fail so they can play the victim and get out of dodge easy... but is it possible that they want it to fail because they feel the arena, in current draft form, isn't going to work for them and they don't want to be forced to leave becuase of a lack of a suitable facility? (Seems unthinkable considering that they are currently playing in Arco, but they are talking about signing a 30 year lease).

 

[JB_kings]

Q & R are still the best financing option for building a new arena. It makes no difference if that arena is downtown or next to Arco. The agreement framework isn't going to change that much and it already had provisions to change the building site if it was obvious that the railyard option became too difficult. If we were to fast forward to 2008 and there was a firm agreement, the Q and R wording would be very much the same. I'm not sure the Maloofs judged their position correctly on this issue. They could have done everything behind the scenes and got pretty much everything they wanted. The financing was the whole key and they shot that all to hades in one press conference.
The only thing they gave us as their reason was that they didn't want to be blamed if the arena site moved. I may be missing their point, but if their arena site moves several hundred miles south of town, it might be a bit more of concern than a move of a few miles north of downtown.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

The Kings aren't forced to leave if (a miracle occurs and) Q&R pass. But I will add that I think there's yet another option: They try again, next time with less public funding and no sales tax hike. I said before I think USERS should pay more than non-users, and the number of non-users has been vastly understated by Kingsfans.com members.

I would say I use the arena about an average number of times. Maybe 3 times a year. That might be above average for a City/County resident (which I am). I'm even in the preferred demographic of a pro sports franchise.

What I think heavy arena users have failed to recognize is the number of people who just never go to arenas, ever. I wouldn't go to Arco at all if it wasn't for my wife who loves the Monarchs. Without Monarchs games, I simply would never go. I have kids about the right age for disneyonice, but frankly, I think they'd rather have their toenails removed than to see another lame clown fish skating. I think arena acoustics (not just Arco, either) ruins most shows (Dylan would have been WAY better at the Convention Center).

And so on.

There is a huge, hulking segment of the population that makes near the area's median salary of $50k who never, ever set foot in any arena (at least not on any sort of a regular basis).

That's why I think a plan that gets most of its funding from ticket surcharges could be part of a plan B. If, in the arena plan's next life, they try AGAIN to use ONLY sales taxes to fund it, you can just go out and dig the grave for that one the day they announce it. You need to understand this: If it's done primarily through a sales tax, it will not pass. Not in a million years.

I don't think 3 is viable. There are too many other locales willing to pay for 50% or more of an arena. They'd make more money elsewhere; plain and simple.

Option 1 is the most likely, but I sincerely believe they'll try again.

 

[bringbackbobby]

The Kings aren't forced to leave if (a miracle occurs and) Q&R pass. But I will add that I think there's yet another option: They try again, next time with less public funding and no sales tax hike.

This is option 3 you're referring to right? With the exception that you are allowing for at least some public funding.

If Q&R does pass however, and the city/county move forward with an arena against the specifications the Kings require, I don't see Sacramento being able to support 2 arenas should the Maloofs find some way to build their own... as I said, I don't see 3 as a viable option.

 

[VF21]

Sorry but this whole argument has waaaaaay too many what-if's and maybes in it.

If Q&R passes, the Maloofs and the city/county will come to terms. They'd all be fools not to...

 

[JB_kings]

Ticket surcharge?
I'm guessing it will take around 30 million a year in loan payments. Given that there is about 200 events a year and the average attendance of maybe 10,000 people. That means about 2 million tickets to surcharge. I'm guessing that the average ticket surcharge is going to be in the $15 dollar per a ticket range. I think at that kind of hit, you might see a decline in attendance and find it tougher to book events. I can see two bucks for a ticket and another buck or two from parking, but that leaves a huge amount of shortfall required to build a new building.

 

[kupman]

Yes, I see another. Most of the problems the city and Maloofs are trying to work out, would likely not be a problem if the arena's in Natomas or possibly another non-downtown site.

Yes, the city would like to have it downtown, as would I. That doesn't mean that in the end, the city/Maloofs work it out for another location (most likely the current site).

The problem I have with this (even as a new arena supporter) is that the city pays for most of the arena yet we build it in a place that most benefits the Maloofs. I would rather say 'keep your $140 million and we will build it where and how we want."

 

[VF21]

And WHY can't the Maloofs derive benefit? This argument just floors me.

But - right now - there's breaking news about a HUGE roadblock that could put the whole project in jeopardy. It's on Ch. 13...

 

[Arena Skeptic]

This is option 3 you're referring to right? With the exception that you are allowing for at least some public funding.

If Q&R does pass however, and the city/county move forward with an arena against the specifications the Kings require, I don't see Sacramento being able to support 2 arenas should the Maloofs find some way to build their own... as I said, I don't see 3 as a viable option.

They'll never do it 100% privately. There are too many other locales that'd beat that offer. That'd be worth (literally) tens of millions of dollars to the Maloofs.

I guess this is what I'm talking about when I question the long-term viability of pro sports in Sacramento and other similar cities. They can't get the TV contract here; there is a deficit of corporations in this area; there is little taxpayer desire to do this. As a result, I think the Maloofs tried to substitute parking for the three areas they understand they're in trouble with. But that, understandably, doesn't fly with the City.

But, if you can figure out a way to accept AKT's offer (this was the idea floated about a year ago; rezone land in the east, and he'd pay for some of the arena), charge a surcharge of $5/event, maybe get funds from a hotel and rental car tax, and have the Maloofs bend just a little on parking, then maybe they get it done. Interpreting your option 3, as you originally stated it (all private financing), will never get done. They'd lose too much money with that option.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

Ticket surcharge?
I'm guessing it will take around 30 million a year in loan payments. Given that there is about 200 events a year and the average attendance of maybe 10,000 people. That means about 2 million tickets to surcharge. I'm guessing that the average ticket surcharge is going to be in the $15 dollar per a ticket range. I think at that kind of hit, you might see a decline in attendance and find it tougher to book events. I can see two bucks for a ticket and another buck or two from parking, but that leaves a huge amount of shortfall required to build a new building.

$30 million a year seems like a high estimate to me. I haven't amortized $542 million over 30 years yet. Remember, I'm talking about somewhat more than half the money that way.

I go to Sacramento Theatre Company. Says right on my ticket I'm paying a $3 surcharge for the bonds the City floated on STC's behalf.

(And go see "Mockingbird" at STC, if you can. Excellent.)

 

[bringbackbobby]

And WHY can't the Maloofs derive benefit? This argument just floors me.

But - right now - there's breaking news about a HUGE roadblock that could put the whole project in jeopardy. It's on Ch. 13...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I apologize for the highly hypothetical thread but there is a sentiment (not sure how big) among a group of people that are pro entertainment facility (to include an arena) regardless of whether it meets the needs of the Kings/Monarchs. As the Kings are my primary concern and the revitilization of the railyards a close (but not that close) second.... I'm no longer sure the best way to vote given the possibility that a yes vote may no longer kill both birds with one stone.

 

[VF21]

That small contingency of people is going to be disappointed if they think the city/county will sink all that money into an arena without some kind of commitment from the Kings to continue to play there.

The Kings want a new arena. For the most part, there's conceptual agreement about most things. I'm reasonably sure they'll find a way to work out the rest IF the measures pass.

 

[VF21]

...brief update...Now stupid Ch. 13 is touting "A meeting behind closed doors could decide in the next 24 hours what a Yes vote on the arena deal could mean."

I bleeping hate news teasers.

...brief further update...

Our own reporter (whatever the bleep his name is) has uncovered some information about the arena deal that could affect the vote. It does involve the Maloofs. Stay tuned for the news at 6 p.m.

Yeah, I'm gonna watch Katie Couric just so I don't miss the breaking news? I think not. Cheap ploy on the part of News13, IMHO, to boost their ratings. And they just lost me. I'm turning to News10 - for two reasons.

The first, of course, involves Katie Couric. The second is NOT buying into News13's smarmy techniques.

 

[JB_kings]

Update from Ch 13, the Maloofs are out again. Roger Dickenson said a statement about Q&R to come in the next few days. The vote is now about a new arena without the Kings and Monarchs.

 

[Rockmeister]

Update from Ch 13, the Maloofs are out again. Roger Dickenson said a statement about Q&R to come in the next few days. The vote is now about a new arena without the Kings and Monarchs.

What do you mean the Maloofs are out again? I didn't think they were in. This Q&R is beginning to be a joke. I can't keep up with the latest news because by the time I know the update, its changing again.

 

[JB_kings]

They were talking, now they aren't. That is what I mean by out.

 

[VF21]

Okay, bringbackbobby. Fess up... You work for News13, right?



The "breaking news" story is that if Q & R passes, the city/county is planning on going ahead with building the arena, even if the Kings/Maloofs aren't part of it.

 

[VF21]

This has just gotten to be more than silly.

The Maloofs are in New York, meeting with the NBA about something, and this is leaked to News13 about how talks are now off??

 

[JB_kings]

At least 13 mentioned that Arco was going to be gone within 5 years no matter if there is a new arena or not. That one never seems to get mentioned enough. I would think that's something important that people would want to factor int their decision.

 

[VF21]

Okay, just between you and me and the fence post, I think this could be a way to get the voters to disassociate the Maloofs from the measures...and get them passed.

Then, when all the dust settles, the city/county and the Maloofs go back to the table, and VOILA! An accord is reached.

 

[LilMissDiva]

And WHY can't the Maloofs derive benefit? This argument just floors me.

But - right now - there's breaking news about a HUGE roadblock that could put the whole project in jeopardy. It's on Ch. 13...

What's even more interesting, is that these are the same poeple that say the Maloofs should pay for everything out of their own pockets because they are soooo rich...

"What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine".

 

[bringbackbobby]

Okay, bringbackbobby. Fess up... You work for News13, right?

No... I really don't. No way to prove that to you I suppose - but I really don't. I'm feeling pretty darn clairvoyant right about now though.

So, this sucks - and takes my thread out of the hypothetical and now is a very legitimate question. If the Kings aren't backing Q&R, and want no part of it, how do I vote as a fan of the Kings and as a resident of Sacramento county?

 

[ShatteredVision]

Sure if you put all taxpayer money in one boat, it'd seem like a lot of money.

As an individual sales tax payer with a modest disposable income, probably won't hurt the sales tax payer in the long run.

If Q & R pass, I'd think an arena would be built somewhere in the city/county if they couldn't do it downtown. They'd probably also "start" that railyard project even if the arena isn't built there...

 

[Artestify]

Linky


(CBS 13) SACRAMENTO CBS 13 News has learned that the Maloofs are out of the proposed arena deal. City leaders tell CBS 13 news they are moving forward without the Maloofs.

Lawmakers who have been working on negotiations with the Maloofs are now preparing a statement that is expected to be released in the next few days. They say people who vote ‘yes’ for the proposed arena tax increase will be voting for the arena - not for the kings.

Talks have broken down again between local leaders and the Maloof brothers. Two weeks before Election Day, lawmakers behind the ‘Q and R’ campaign are still working feverishly to get the proposed arena tax passed.

“We're working on putting together a statement of some kind, that I would anticipate would be available within the next few days,” says Sacramento Supervisor Roger Dickinson.

Joe and Gavin Maloof are in New York for a meeting with the NBA. The team issued a statement today saying it intends to work toward a deal. But for now, there is none.

Sacramento State political Professor Barbara O’Connor says the way this arena proposal is shaping up, reminds her of similar problems in the past.

“It’s a sad commentary - the rail yards turned into the Bermuda triangle. Politicians who try to fix it get smashed with all kinds of things,” she says.

Opponents of ‘Q and R’ say any new statement the city and county reveal in the coming days will be too little too late.

Yes on ‘Q and R’ campaign manager Doug Elmets maintains, any new message, will likely repeat what his campaign has said all along.

“This is once again not about the Maloofs, it’s not about the kings, and it’s not about the Monarchs. It’s about having an arena in a revitalized part of Sacramento that we own,” he says.

(© MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

 

[VF21]

I think this is a tempest in a teapot. Regardless of what kinds of difficulties the city/county and the Kings are having right now, if the measures pass they'll find a solution.

Remember, Q & R do not specify where the arena is to be built.

Measure Q says:

Shall the Board of Supervisors levy a ¼ percent transaction and use tax (sales tax) for a maximum of 15 years for general governmental purposes?

Measure R says:

ADVISORY VOTE ONLY. THIS MEASURE DOES NOT INCREASE TAXES. To enhance cultural and entertainment opportunities and improve quality of life, shall up to 50% of any new voter-approved sales tax be used for a new sports and entertainment facility with remaining amounts used for local priorities such as: road, transit and park improvements; police, sheriff and fire safety enhancements; libraries; after school programs; and arts and cultural facilities/programs?

If you notice, NOTHING is said about the railyards specifically. If the measures pass, there may be viable alternatives to the railyards, especially if the developer still doesn't have title to the land.

 

[bringbackbobby]

If Q & R pass, I'd think an arena would be built somewhere in the city/county if they couldn't do it downtown. They'd probably also "start" that railyard project even if the arena isn't built there...

According to the city/county (per the recent "breaking news" from Channel 13), if Q&R pass, they build an arena in the railyards with or without the Kings. As of now, the Maloof's are saying without. If that's true then won't the kings be forced to leave town? There's no way we're going to put an "entertainment" arena in the railyards and "Arco 2" somewhere else like Natomas. Not possible.

Unless someone can explain to me how this is an invalid argument I find myself suddenly on the "vote no" side of Q&R, which makes me feel very much like a traitor somehow.

 

[bringbackbobby]

Remember, Q & R do not specify where the arena is to be built.

If you notice, NOTHING is said about the railyards specifically. If the measures pass, there may be viable alternatives to the railyards, especially if the developer still doesn't have title to the land.

Hmmm... now it really does seem like we are voting on the great unknown.