[Game] Wizards @ Kings - 1/16/13

[The_Jamal]

It's funny how much better our roleplayers get when we use them properly. We once again saw Chuck Hayes be incredibly valuable the entire second half when he was playing his more natural PF position and with a properly sized C. Jimmer got a ton of open looks because of the attention defenses have to pay to Reke and Cousins.

The problem is who gets the minutes? JT has been fairly bad the last 2 weeks while Trob has certainly earned more minutes. Chuck showed his value again tonight, but at the expense of Trob and JT. Also, Jimmer was great playing off the starters, but where do IT and Thornton's minutes come from if Reke gets 35+ a game.

 

[TyFreak Evans]

Definitely not how I envisioned this game to be. I honestly thought it would be slightly easier....But then of course I speak of our Kings Beloved, and as we know, nothing is easy...good win for us and I hope great things come out of this win and stay with the team for the long haul.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

just a curious question.... do the kings ever keep a player for good? I've seen other teams keep their players until they retire. I hope they never trade DMC or Evans. We never kept anyone as far as I know...

Since moving to Sacramento, the Kings have only had two players to play at least 7 years, that played their whole career with the Kings: Lionel Simmons, and Francisco Garcia.

 

[spudfan]

The huge advantage of having Jimmer out there is that his guy was never more than a foot away. It creates more space for Tyreke and Cousins. If they make a mistake and help off of him he makes them pay.

 

[Bricklayer]

Since moving to Sacramento, the Kings have only had two players to play at least 7 years, that played their whole career with the Kings: Lionel Simmons, and Francisco Garcia.

First of all, I was thinking of Lionel too as the other one. Second of all, where/how did you come up with that specific number so fast? Tweaking search terms somehow on basketball-reference.com?

 

[jcwkings]

Definitely not how I envisioned this game to be. I honestly thought it would be slightly easier....But then of course I speak of our Kings Beloved, and as we know, nothing is easy...good win for us and I hope great things come out of this win and stay with the team for the long haul.

On paper the Wizards have a pretty talented lineup, and it looks like with Wall back they are starting to play to their potential, I wouldn't be suprised to see them win 10 of 15 or some run like that, especially playing against that abysmal Eastern Conference(except the top 6 or so teams).

 

[sdballer]

First of all, I was thinking of Lionel too as the other one. Second of all, where/how did you come up with that specific number so fast? Tweaking search terms somehow on basketball-reference.com?

Yeah, you can sort players by franchise and years played there.

 

[jcwkings]

Jimmer did wonders for our spacing, and his defense was better than anyone else was doing before that.

 

[sdballer]

It's funny how much better our roleplayers get when we use them properly. We once again saw Chuck Hayes be incredibly valuable the entire second half when he was playing his more natural PF position and with a properly sized C. Jimmer got a ton of open looks because of the attention defenses have to pay to Reke and Cousins.

The problem is who gets the minutes? JT has been fairly bad the last 2 weeks while Trob has certainly earned more minutes. Chuck showed his value again tonight, but at the expense of Trob and JT. Also, Jimmer was great playing off the starters, but where do IT and Thornton's minutes come from if Reke gets 35+ a game.

I think you try to move 2 of the excess guards we have. I think Thornton is much better than what we've seen this year, but he's also got a big deal and may bring you more back than any of the other guards. I think Chuck's time is very specific to the type of guys he needs to defend.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

First of all, I was thinking of Lionel too as the other one. Second of all, where/how did you come up with that specific number so fast? Tweaking search terms somehow on basketball-reference.com?

I started tracking that after Webber got traded, since it looked like the Maloofs were in the tank for Stojakovic.

 

[Glenn]

just a curious question.... do the kings ever keep a player for good? I've seen other teams keep their players until they retire. I hope they never trade DMC or Evans. We never kept anyone as far as I know...

The rules are being tweaked frequently so that players will stay with the team that drafted them. I doubt if anyone will stay from the beginning of their career to the end but with these two guys, I have the same wishes as you. In the beginning of time when the NBA started, I believe players stayed with one team far more often than they do now. For me, I get attached to certain players and don't want to see them go. I doubt if that makes me unique.

Kobe has stayed with the Lakers hasn't he?

 

[Section 101]

Since moving to Sacramento, the Kings have only had two players to play at least 7 years, that played their whole career with the Kings: Lionel Simmons, and Francisco Garcia.

What about Fundy?

 

[Proof21]

What about Fundy?

He only played here six and also played in Chicago for ... two games. If that counts .

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What about Fundy?

He only played here six and also played in Chicago for ... two games. If that counts .

Indeed. My heart was hurt when Funderburke got waived.

 

[swisshh]

IT is vitally important to the continuation of the team's good ball movement and offensive success. He's also better defensively than any of the other mini PGs on the team. Not sure why people want Brooks over him. Brooks presence and the team's offensive and overall struggles have long been connected. Jimmer takes Brooks minutes in the second half and the team played better overall for it. Sure, Aaron works well with Reke, but Brooks is bad for the other guys on the court. It's not just about Reke. People who don't understand the PG position give me headaches. =/

 

[upinsmoke]

I think (hope) that Brooks was signed with the idea of trading him down the road.

 

[twslam07]

A lot of truth to that. Reke pairs best with players who are comfortable, or willing playing off him, and they need to be able to shoot as well as handle the ball. Brooks showed he can do that. Without Reke when there was more of an onus on him to create he struggled. Jimmer showed tonight and previously has shown flashes of being able to do that. With his shooting ability it should work.. The question with Jimmer is his defense against starters.

IT is best with the ball and controlling the offense whereas Brooks/Jimmer are more than comfortable playing off the ball. Unfortunately with IT that works against Reke as Reke's touches are then limited. Really think IT is built for leading a 2nd unit and being a bench spark, in control of 5-7 mins per half.

This is exactly what I brought up in the "You Be the Coach" thread. I don't really care which one it is, but I want Brooks or Fredette to start and play with Evans. Thomas is not the long term answer next to Evans. Bring him in off the bench with the second unit where he can be "the man." Set your players up for success Smart. It's not too difficult.

 

[Padrino]

IT is vitally important to the continuation of the team's good ball movement and offensive success. He's also better defensively than any of the other mini PGs on the team. Not sure why people want Brooks over him. Brooks presence and the team's offensive and overall struggles have long been connected. Jimmer takes Brooks minutes in the second half and the team played better overall for it. Sure, Aaron works well with Reke, but Brooks is bad for the other guys on the court. It's not just about Reke. People who don't understand the PG position give me headaches. =/

the kings are 27th in assists per game but 12th in points per game. comparatively, okc is 18th in assists per game but 2nd in points per game. ball movement is important but it hardly represents the full measure of "offensive success." that said, isaiah thomas is not "vitally important" to anything related to sacramento's gameplan, just like marcus thornton is not vitally important, just like aaron brooks is not vitally important, just like jimmer fredette is not vitally important. if they all formed like voltron into a single superplayer, then we'd be having a worthwhile conversation, but thomas is as disposable as the rest of the team's midget guards. they're all bench-level talent with 6th man ceilings...

 

[twslam07]

IT is vitally important to the continuation of the team's good ball movement and offensive success. He's also better defensively than any of the other mini PGs on the team. Not sure why people want Brooks over him. Brooks presence and the team's offensive and overall struggles have long been connected. Jimmer takes Brooks minutes in the second half and the team played better overall for it. Sure, Aaron works well with Reke, but Brooks is bad for the other guys on the court. It's not just about Reke. People who don't understand the PG position give me headaches. =/

I disagree with the sentiment that our ball movement stalls without Thomas in the lineup. The offense should be going through Cousins and Evans. Thankfully, both have above average vision for their position, are capable play-makers, and can easily break down a defense. That's what makes me think this tandem can work so well. Just look at the Lakers when they won the title in 2010 (Fisher, Bryant, Artest, Gasol, Bynum). Fisher is nowhere close to a good play-maker for a PG, but where does their play-making come from? Bryant and Gasol (a big SG who is capable of breaking down his man consistently and a skilled big man. Sound familiar?) Thomas has shown to disrupt that tandem to some degree and that is why Brooks or Fredette would make us better paired with those two.

 

[mac]

IT is vitally important to the continuation of the team's good ball movement and offensive success. He's also better defensively than any of the other mini PGs on the team. Not sure why people want Brooks over him. Brooks presence and the team's offensive and overall struggles have long been connected. Jimmer takes Brooks minutes in the second half and the team played better overall for it. Sure, Aaron works well with Reke, but Brooks is bad for the other guys on the court. It's not just about Reke. People who don't understand the PG position give me headaches. =/

Sorry, but I don't see how a guy averaging 3 apg is vital as a PG to our ball movement offensive success.

 

[swisshh]

Y'all giving me headaches. Replace IT with someone who has no lick of PG sense and watch the offense and team vibe fall apart. I'm not saying IT is irreplaceable. I'm saying there's nobody else on the team that can replace him as of right now. He gets the ball up and makes sure the game starts off with the offense going the right way. You can't rely on Brooks, Jimmer or Reke to do that. Cousins may be the cog in the half-court offense, but he's not the one bringing the ball up or running the break.

AJ Price didn't have astounding stats tonight, but he kept feeding the ball and the Wiz offense into the weak parts of the Kings defense. Wall came in, did some of that and pushed the ball hard.

When the team offense breaks down, the whole team breaks down. It has always been the point where the Kings break down. Players start worrying about their shot, get in bad moods and take bad shots. The bad shots lead to imbalanced floor that leads to easy fast breaks for the other team. The defense then breaks down further because the offense is compromising it. Defensive effort falls off because players aren't getting involved on offense. Everything starts to falter. Bringing up assists per game is just silly. You got to understand the position and the game.

 

[mac]

Y'all giving me headaches. Replace IT with someone who has no lick of PG sense and watch the offense and team vibe fall apart. I'm not saying IT is irreplaceable. I'm saying there's nobody else on the team that can replace him as of right now. He gets the ball up and makes sure the game starts off with the offense going the right way. You can't rely on Brooks, Jimmer or Reke to do that. Cousins may be the cog in the half-court offense, but he's not the one bringing the ball up or running the break.

AJ Price didn't have astounding stats tonight, but he kept feeding the ball and the Wiz offense into the weak parts of the Kings defense. Wall came in, did some of that and pushed the ball hard.

When the team offense breaks down, the whole team breaks down. It has always been the point where the Kings break down. Players start worrying about their shot, get in bad moods and take bad shots. The bad shots lead to imbalanced floor that leads to easy fast breaks for the other team. The defense then breaks down further because the offense is compromising it. Defensive effort falls off because players aren't getting involved on offense. Everything starts to falter. Bringing up assists per game is just silly. You got to understand the position and the game.

Wait wait ... so IT is vital to our offense and ball movement as a PG, who's job is to set guys up and run the offense, but assists per game don't matter? You brought up John Wall - guess how many assists he's averaged over the last two seasons. Guess how many assists he had tonight. If a guy is vital to the offense it means he's either scoring or setting guys up to score. As a PG I assume being vital to the offense refers to the latter. And if you directly set up guys to score 3 times a game I don't think you're very vital at all.

I will agree with you that our ball movement is generally better than IT. But I don't think he's as irreplaceable as you think he is, even by Jimmer and Brooks.

 

[bajaden]

I don't know whats been said so far, and I'm not going to go read the posts. Its just too late and I have to go to bed. So, in my humble opinion, Jimmer was the best point guard on the floor tonight. And for several reasons. He got the team into their offense. He got the ball into Cuz where he needed it. In general, the offense looked like an offense when he was out there running it. He also surprised me and played very good defense, which IT and Brooks forgot to do. I paid particular attention to IT on defense tonight, and he was absolutely terrible. He constantly left his man, and go burned. He's generally a very competitive defender, but tonight he wasn't getting the team into their sets, and his defense stunk. At least Jimmer didn't leave his man, and actually did a very reputable job on whomever he was guarding.

That by no means that I think Jimmer is better than Brooks or IT. Just that he was better tonight. He also plays very well with Cuz on the pick and roll, or the give and go. First half, no passes to Cuz in the post. Beginning of third quarter and no passes to Cuz in the post. Jimmer comes in and passes the ball to Cuz in the post. The game changed at that moment, and the ball movement started.

 

[gunks]

As much as I hated the Jimmer pick at the time (my predraft scheme was to trade down to get Leonard AND Faried-in hindsight I'm a genius) I am warming up to him. He seems like the only guard on our roster who is improving. IT's production has regressed, and I think in a response to that he has become much more of a black hole this season in an attempt to keep his ppg up. Brooks was a horrible signing, he had that run where he was playing great with Reke, but I think coach "Smart"has forgotten all about that. I have never been a fan of MT.

Heres to hoping Jimmer can continue to improve! And also heres to hoping that when he does improve, this board wont be flooded by horrible, trollish, Jimmer fans!

 

[Npliam]

And also heres to hoping that when he does improve, this board wont be flooded by horrible, trollish, Jimmer fans!

Too late.

 

[Spike]

if they all formed like voltron into a single superplayer, then we'd be having a worthwhile conversation, but thomas is as disposable as the rest of the team's midget guards. they're all bench-level talent with 6th man ceilings...

Funny, as my son and I were watching Voltron last night. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[ParniValjak]

As much as I hated the Jimmer pick at the time (my predraft scheme was to trade down to get Leonard AND Faried-in hindsight I'm a genius) I am warming up to him. He seems like the only guard on our roster who is improving. IT's production has regressed, and I think in a response to that he has become much more of a black hole this season in an attempt to keep his ppg up. Brooks was a horrible signing, he had that run where he was playing great with Reke, but I think coach "Smart"has forgotten all about that. I have never been a fan of MT.

Heres to hoping Jimmer can continue to improve! And also heres to hoping that when he does improve, this board wont be flooded by horrible, trollish, Jimmer fans!

With a shot like that, Jimmer will always have a spot on an NBA team. How big a role he plays will depend entirely on if he can improve his defence to at least an average level and if he can improve his handles so that he can handle PG duties at least in a combo capacity.

Provided that he can improve those 2 areas to an acceptable level, Jimmer will always have a role to play next to Cousins and Evans. He benefits them greatly because of that shot that creates great spacing and he also benefits from the attention that Cousins and Evans draw.

Jimmer has made some big steps forward this season so hopefully next season, under new ownership he is ready to play a more regular role next to a re-signed Tyreke and extended Cousins.

 

[Section 101]

I don't know whats been said so far, and I'm not going to go read the posts. Its just too late and I have to go to bed. So, in my humble opinion, Jimmer was the best point guard on the floor tonight. And for several reasons. He got the team into their offense. He got the ball into Cuz where he needed it. In general, the offense looked like an offense when he was out there running it. He also surprised me and played very good defense, which IT and Brooks forgot to do. I paid particular attention to IT on defense tonight, and he was absolutely terrible. He constantly left his man, and go burned. He's generally a very competitive defender, but tonight he wasn't getting the team into their sets, and his defense stunk. At least Jimmer didn't leave his man, and actually did a very reputable job on whomever he was guarding.

That by no means that I think Jimmer is better than Brooks or IT. Just that he was better tonight. He also plays very well with Cuz on the pick and roll, or the give and go. First half, no passes to Cuz in the post. Beginning of third quarter and no passes to Cuz in the post. Jimmer comes in and passes the ball to Cuz in the post. The game changed at that moment, and the ball movement started.

The most important part tonight was when defenders tried to pressure him on the ball he made them pay. His defense can be covered up to a degree. His ball handling is much more important for him to be more than a backup for his career.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

i saw Jimmer actually play some pretty good one on one D against Wall last night at times. he did the same thing against Kyrie the other night and even blocked his shot once. besides a few moments of leaving good shooters alone in the corner, Jimmer's D has greatly improved.


still i wouldnt wanna see the results of him guarding some starting PG's like Westbrook, D Will, CP3 etc

 

[Hadlowe]

i saw Jimmer actually play some pretty good one on one D against Wall last night at times. he did the same thing against Kyrie the other night and even blocked his shot once. besides a few moments of leaving good shooters alone in the corner, Jimmer's D has greatly improved.


still i wouldnt wanna see the results of him guarding some starting PG's like Westbrook, D Will, CP3 etc

To a certain extent, those guys are stars because it largely doesn't matter who is guarding them. If CP3 decides he is going to score on you, he's pretty much going to score on you. You can make it harder or easier, but it's going to happen. The question is can you rotate intelligently to take shots away from wing players on switches, and can you not screw up and leave openings for your guy to score that weren't there otherwise.