Why do posters argue so much?

#1
Hey Kings' Fans,


I've noticed a lot of posters on this board--and other boards, of course--being really obstinate in their POVs expressed in this board (and other boards, too). Stubbornly obstinate. Meanly obstinate.


One interesting thing that I find with many, many people is that they really don't take the time to look up words that they've seen before, but not really understood the full meanings of them, so here's the definition of "obstinate" for your convenience:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obstinate


Granted, other boards are worse (and this board is an exceptionally good board, mind you), but any board communication can be improved if the posters would:

  • [SIZE=-1]
  • read to the views of others and respond to them.
  • contemplate multiple views on controversial issues.
  • develop writing skills and impromptu responses in group discussions.
  • develop skills in supporting one's opinion with facts and examples.
  • write posts that take into consideration good points made by others.[/SIZE]
To take a cynical POV on this issue, perhaps some people just ****ing like to argue so as to give their irrelevant lives some relevance. I can relate to that, actually, because in today's ****ed-up world, people are being increasingly disempowered, disenfranchised and disillusioned, leaving only bulletin boards as places where they can vent in their attempts to create relevance in their lives. That's my guess in regards to the obstinacy of some posters.


I find that most posters have POVs that have merit in many ways, so there's few--if any--posters who are always 100% correct or 100% wrong--most are somewhere inbetween--and that's regarding factual arguments, not POV arguments...opinions, in other words.


It is easily to have two divergent opininons on the same exact subject and be both correct, as the probabilities of the subject matter could go either way, or go off in some other unforeseen direction.


"Opinion" is a word that is used frequently in this board, so, take a look at the first definition of this word...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

...and see that it is based on uncertainty; therefore, any opinionated argument made ought to done so with the principle of uncertainty in mind, as the probabilities of the subject matter at hand could go off in unforeseen directions. That is the nature of 3-D life as we know it. Life in higher dimensions/densities (4-D, 5-D, etc to 8-D...and this is NOT opinion, mind you) have far less uncertainty in probabilities than in 3-D because the inhabitants have evolved beyond the 3-D worlds as we know them.


When I was a high-school student, I started a habit of carrying a dictionary wherever I went--no matter where, even on a date (I'd leave it in my backpack), so that if I wound up with to-be-wasted time, I'd break open the book and start reading where I last left off. I was mercilessly teased by my classmates, but they soon shut the ---k up when they saw my writings or tried to debate me on various issues, as I would throw in words that I knew that they did not know, lol.


I have asked people this question over the years: "If you were marooned on an island, what one book would you want to have on hand?" Many said, "Bible", "Playboy" (as if this one's a "book"!)and other books; not one has said "dictionary", which really has surprised me, since, to me, that's the ONE book that one would not wish to do without in any case. One could rebuild society on an island with just one quality dictionary (Webster's 2nd ed is the best, by far, as most dictionaries now have been doctored to favor the corporate/elite establishment heavily over the common people, including the latter editions of Websters). To this day I still carry a dictionary wherever I go and use it at places like DMV, banks, etc.


Anyway, the central point of this post is for the posters to carefully consider the frequent good merit in the arguments/opinions of others and recognize the underlying uncertainty in nearly any POV, even ones that are based on facts, such as sports stats. This thread is not to be construed to be an attack on the mods in any way.


It is always good to apply the classic Golden Rule in any of your interactions with others, beit verbal or written. The Golden Rule is a reflection of the Law of Distortion/Law of Free Will that undergirds all realities in this galaxy as we know it (each galaxy has its own ground rules governing realities contained therein).

.
 
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#2
My personal opinion is there are a few things.

- Not everyone understands typing and getting your point and tone across online. You can't see a face, body language, tone of voice, etc. You type something straight and direct and some people take offense.

-No offense to anyone, but there are some folks around here that have been here quite a while. Some of the originals from the inception of Kingsfans. Beacuse of that they think their opinion some how has more weight, that they are in some way more knowledgable just by the virtue of being here around. They have a bit of an ego.

Now I'm not saying these people don't have valid points, and don't know what they are talking about. But, thinking that your opinion is somewhat more valid, or that you are more knowledgable just because you've been here...well that's not a good stance to take.

Some people also can't stand being disagreed with, and get very defensive when someone does not agree with their view point.

On a side note I would like to say that for the most part the site does a good job of welcoming new posters. On the other hand for a while until your name has been seen for a while at times your posts will just be ignored. People will skip right over you and responsd to almost everyone else's thoughts, but yours.
 
#4
Well, I don't post here much anymore simply because if you have a point of view that differs from others it gets hacked to death and it gets old. Certain people here believe that what they say is the gospel and if people disagree they are "corrected" to the right way of thinking and this goes from the Mods all the way down. Get's pretty boring and stale.

Just my .02 cents and I would venture to guess that this post gets locked eventually.
 
#7
You are not the only one

Well, I don't post here much anymore simply because if you have a point of view that differs from others it gets hacked to death and it gets old. Certain people here believe that what they say is the gospel and if people disagree they are "corrected" to the right way of thinking and this goes from the Mods all the way down. Get's pretty boring and stale.

Just my .02 cents and I would venture to guess that this post gets locked eventually.

Others have expressed similar POVs to me privately, so you are not the only one who feels this way--it appears that there's a fair bunch of others who feel this way as well.


I hope that this thread does not get locked. Please don't lock this up, mods.

.
 
#8
Well, I don't post here much anymore simply because if you have a point of view that differs from others it gets hacked to death and it gets old. Certain people here believe that what they say is the gospel and if people disagree they are "corrected" to the right way of thinking and this goes from the Mods all the way down. Get's pretty boring and stale.

Just my .02 cents and I would venture to guess that this post gets locked eventually.
Add me to the list. I've actually spent a lot of time on bulletin boards in my life and I know more or less how to write for this medium. I hardly bother anymore, especially here. Any conversation that might have been worth my while either descends into posturing and bickering, or has the life sucked out of it by the old guard who have no problem just shutting down a thread if they don't agree with it.

This board is NOT a free exchange of ideas, it's more like a social club. Knowing that, it's still a good source of information, so I end up spending a lot of time lurking. I just rarely lurk past page 2 of any thread.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#9
I am very proud of this board and what we've built here. There is never going to be complete harmony, and there are times when things get contentious, but - for the most part - this board is head and shoulders above just about any other sports message board I've ever seen, and I've visited a LOT of them.

As far as strong opinions go, show me ANY message board (or any public gathering, for that matter) that doesn't have a hierarchy of those who comment forcefully to those who rarely post at all.
 
#10
This is a very interesting topic to me and one that I have spent discussing with some of my friends. There are some really good and interesting answers about why posters argue so much and why people who are typically very nice people in the "real" world can be such jerks on a message board.

here is a link you might want to check out as a start:
http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/deindividuation.htm

The main factors here are the anonymity that occurs on a message board. Also, as a group with an opinion gets larger and larger there can a "mob" mentality that occurs. The research of Milgram and Zimbardo is also very interesting stuff on the topic.

I have thought of this topic before because I have to watch myself. There have been times when I have been rude on this board and in retrospect have thought "why the heck did I write that?" I would not be so rude if I had to look a person in the eye when talking to them. I have seen many, many others do it here as well. I am not pointing fingers at anyone here. It is just an interesting phenomenon that has some very rational and well researched explanations.
 
#11
I was going to post something about the Hierarchy comment but it would probably just start another argument so I'll leave it alone....
 
#13
This is a basketball forum and most of us are not experts, i.e. we don't get paid for what we know about the game. Geoff Petrie, even sports media like Grant Napear and Jerry Reynolds are more knowledgeable of the game than most of us are. Why? Because it's their job, they ARE paid to know. I often find myself agreeing with both Grant and Jerry even though I'm sure they don't play a lick of B-Ball, but they know the game.

Why else do we link to articles on other sites? Because the people on the Bee, SI, NBA.com, ESPN are more knowledgeable and we value their opinions more than any person on this entire board. Of course we may not always agree with them, but those that disagree of course, again are not getting paid to report.

That doesn't mean that there aren't knowledgeable people on this site, because I've seen them on here. Regardless, most posts on this site are meaningless anyways, (for example, "Who should start in Martin's place?"), because we have no real control on the Kings. Those that do have control are the Maloofs, Petrie, Theus and the players. So, I try not to take anything posted (by Mods or common folk) on this site too seriously, and instead glean any useful info I can find, and of course to exult in the KINGS!
 
#14
in addition to the anonymity, i think Doc correctly pointed out above that it's easy to misconstrue the tone of a response. if a poster starts a response with "um,..." it can be quite difficult to tell if he/she is genuinely confused or being condescending.

case in point, i don't think the OP meant to be condescending, but he/she posted links to actual definitions of words, and points out that "many" people on here don't fully know the definition of some words; this board has thousands of members (i think), i think "many" in this instance is a pretty loose term.

the arguments that go back and forth on here are very fascinating studies of semantics. it helps me, at least, to look at my own argumenting process and i then try to improve upon it in real life discussions/interactions.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#16
This is a basketball forum and most of us are not experts, i.e. we don't get paid for what we know about the game. Geoff Petrie, even sports media like Grant Napear and Jerry Reynolds are more knowledgeable of the game than most of us are. Why? Because it's their job, they ARE paid to know. I often find myself agreeing with both Grant and Jerry even though I'm sure they don't play a lick of B-Ball, but they know the game.

Why else do we link to articles on other sites? Because the people on the Bee, SI, NBA.com, ESPN are more knowledgeable and we value their opinions more than any person on this entire board. Of course we may not always agree with them, but those that disagree of course, again are not getting paid to report.

That doesn't mean that there aren't knowledgeable people on this site, because I've seen them on here. Regardless, most posts on this site are meaningless anyways, (for example, "Who should start in Martin's place?"), because we have no real control on the Kings. Those that do have control are the Maloofs, Petrie, Theus and the players. So, I try not to take anything posted (by Mods or common folk) on this site too seriously, and instead glean any useful info I can find, and of course to exult in the KINGS!
The only part of this I disagree with is the assumption that every article we may link to is by someone who is, by default, more knowledgeable simply because they happen to get paid to report on sports. (And getting paid is no longer a requisite for a sports blog...) A lot of those people are giving opinions based on a lot less upclose knowledge of the Kings than what loyal fans here possess simply because they don't see the team anywhere near as often as we or follow them with the same attention to detail.
 
#17
The only part of this I disagree with is the assumption that every article we may link to is by someone who is, by default, more knowledgeable simply because they happen to get paid to report on sports. (And getting paid is no longer a requisite for a sports blog...) A lot of those people are giving opinions based on a lot less upclose knowledge of the Kings than what loyal fans here possess simply because they don't see the team anywhere near as often as we or follow them with the same attention to detail.
You're right every article shouldn't be considered truth or valid or that the writer is more knowledgeable because they are paid to do so. My emphasis was, we do link to articles here and I feel they are held with more reverence, for example, than a topic started by most anyone. You're right, firsthand knowledge of something usually trumps anything else.
 
#18
in addition to the anonymity, i think Doc correctly pointed out above that it's easy to misconstrue the tone of a response. if a poster starts a response with "um,..." it can be quite difficult to tell if he/she is genuinely confused or being condescending.

case in point, i don't think the OP meant to be condescending, but he/she posted links to actual definitions of words, and points out that "many" people on here don't fully know the definition of some words; this board has thousands of members (i think), i think "many" in this instance is a pretty loose term.

the arguments that go back and forth on here are very fascinating studies of semantics. it helps me, at least, to look at my own argumenting process and i then try to improve upon it in real life discussions/interactions.
Great Post. The last paragraph is especially meaningful.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#20
Well, I don't post here much anymore simply because if you have a point of view that differs from others it gets hacked to death and it gets old. Certain people here believe that what they say is the gospel and if people disagree they are "corrected" to the right way of thinking and this goes from the Mods all the way down. Gets pretty boring and stale.
This is pretty much how I feel.

This is a great board but that doesn't mean it should simply coast without any occasional introspection. Not even the best has no room for improvement.

I will post but be very careful about what I say and where I say it as I am tired beyond belief of being attacked. I am tired of others being ganged up on and demeaned either crudely or in the oh so clever erudite put down.

When I post, I will acknowledge another person's views if I agree and branch off where I disagree. I also have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I hope that I encourage respectful exchange of opinions because that is my intent.

Some people seem (see the word "seem") to have an attitude that they are never wrong and it effects very much my willingness to freely post every opinion I have. I would rather keep my fingers away from the keyboard than get a condescending retort.

I think I have been around longer than anyone but Jeremy so I hope none of the above comments were directed at me. If so, send me a PM and we'll work it out.
 
#21
A large portion of the infighting and disagreement that takes place on message boards such as this one happen for several reasons. First, because many fans (especially those die-hard enough to post on a message board) are so passionate about their team, many of the issues that are discussed can strike a very deep emotional chord with them (either positively or negatively). But because basketball (and sports in general) is often as much the realm of analysis and reason as it is emotion, it can be difficult to separate objectivity from sentiment when replying in opposition to someone (or voicing an opinion general). Thus what may be a simple statement of fact to one poster may seem spiteful or inflammatory to another.

Secondly, basketball is a realm that contains many of what I call ambiguous superlatives. That is, we all know that the best basketball players in the world play in the NBA, but it may be difficult to say why exactly or what makes them the best. For example, one poster may feel that the optimal power forward scores 20 ppg, grabs 10 rpg, and notches 5 apg. Another poster may disagree completely, and feel that the optimal power forward should grab at least 13 rpg and get 2-3 bpg with offense being inconsequential. Because there is no definitive measuring stick on what exactly makes someone (or a team, or a coach, or a style of offense, etc.) the best, it can be a serious point of contention.

The trick to balancing emotion and reason within the contents of your writing is to reread the posts you write and make sure that, if you intend to voice opposition, that you attack the argument and not the person making the post (and thus avoid committing a so called ad hominem fallacy).
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#22
A large portion of the infighting and disagreement that takes place on message boards such as this one happen for several reasons. First, because many fans (especially those die-hard enough to post on a message board) are so passionate about their team, many of the issues that are discussed can strike a very deep emotional chord with them (either positively or negatively). But because basketball (and sports in general) is often as much the realm of analysis and reason as it is emotion, it can be difficult to separate objectivity from sentiment when replying in opposition to someone (or voicing an opinion general). Thus what may be a simple statement of fact to one poster may seem spiteful or inflammatory to another.

Secondly, basketball is a realm that contains many of what I call ambiguous superlatives. That is, we all know that the best basketball players in the world play in the NBA, but it may be difficult to say why exactly or what makes them the best. For example, one poster may feel that the optimal power forward scores 20 ppg, grabs 10 rpg, and notches 5 apg. Another poster may disagree completely, and feel that the optimal power forward should grab at least 13 rpg and get 2-3 bpg with offense being inconsequential. Because there is no definitive measuring stick on what exactly makes someone (or a team, or a coach, or a style of offense, etc.) the best, it can be a serious point of contention.

The trick to balancing emotion and reason within the contents of your writing is to reread the posts you write and make sure that, if you intend to voice opposition, that you attack the argument and not the person making the post (and thus avoid committing a so called ad hominem fallacy).
You ought to post more often. :)
 

6th

Homer Fan Since 1985
#23
A large portion of the infighting and disagreement that takes place on message boards such as this one happen for several reasons. First, because many fans (especially those die-hard enough to post on a message board) are so passionate about their team, many of the issues that are discussed can strike a very deep emotional chord with them (either positively or negatively). But because basketball (and sports in general) is often as much the realm of analysis and reason as it is emotion, it can be difficult to separate objectivity from sentiment when replying in opposition to someone (or voicing an opinion general). Thus what may be a simple statement of fact to one poster may seem spiteful or inflammatory to another.

Secondly, basketball is a realm that contains many of what I call ambiguous superlatives. That is, we all know that the best basketball players in the world play in the NBA, but it may be difficult to say why exactly or what makes them the best. For example, one poster may feel that the optimal power forward scores 20 ppg, grabs 10 rpg, and notches 5 apg. Another poster may disagree completely, and feel that the optimal power forward should grab at least 13 rpg and get 2-3 bpg with offense being inconsequential. Because there is no definitive measuring stick on what exactly makes someone (or a team, or a coach, or a style of offense, etc.) the best, it can be a serious point of contention.

The trick to balancing emotion and reason within the contents of your writing is to reread the posts you write and make sure that, if you intend to voice opposition, that you attack the argument and not the person making the post (and thus avoid committing a so called ad hominem fallacy).

EXCELLENT!!!!!