Webber trade: Good or bad for the Kings ?
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All of your comments hinge on Webber somehow becoming a sub-par player. He hasn't...
We will simply agree to disagree because there are basic fundamental differences of opinion that are simply not going to be resolved.
For the record, I am not quite as convinced Petrie is either incapable of error (Jimmy Jackson being a prime example) or the only one calling the shots (Joe Maloof's call to Phil Jackson's agent).
Do I hope this trade turns out to be one we regret? Of course not. I've been a Kings fan since before you were born. I don't want bad things for our team. I simply think people who quickly assume it's going to be great are making a big leap right off conclusion cliff and I'm not going to join them quite yet.
You have no idea what it was like back in the old days, before Webber and company made it fun AND exciting to be a Kings fan. Yes, you may have been alive but there's no way you could have experienced the feeling of watching a perennial cellar dwellar team suddenly become legitimate contenders. Webber was a big reason for that, and I am in no way sure his relative value had dropped so far that we "had" to get rid of him - especially in the mid season. Only time will tell. And if it turns out it was the wrong thing to do, it's not going to be something a lot of us long-time fans will get over quickly...if ever.
We will simply agree to disagree because there are basic fundamental differences of opinion that are simply not going to be resolved.
For the record, I am not quite as convinced Petrie is either incapable of error (Jimmy Jackson being a prime example) or the only one calling the shots (Joe Maloof's call to Phil Jackson's agent).
Do I hope this trade turns out to be one we regret? Of course not. I've been a Kings fan since before you were born. I don't want bad things for our team. I simply think people who quickly assume it's going to be great are making a big leap right off conclusion cliff and I'm not going to join them quite yet.
You have no idea what it was like back in the old days, before Webber and company made it fun AND exciting to be a Kings fan. Yes, you may have been alive but there's no way you could have experienced the feeling of watching a perennial cellar dwellar team suddenly become legitimate contenders. Webber was a big reason for that, and I am in no way sure his relative value had dropped so far that we "had" to get rid of him - especially in the mid season. Only time will tell. And if it turns out it was the wrong thing to do, it's not going to be something a lot of us long-time fans will get over quickly...if ever.
Earth to VF21. Petrie didn't know Vlade wouldn't play the whole year. In fact, keeping Webber was even more risky than keeping Vlade for those last 2 years.
My point was that Petrie did not want to overpay an aging veteran, and that's what they would be doing for the last years of Webber's contract.
My point was that Petrie did not want to overpay an aging veteran, and that's what they would be doing for the last years of Webber's contract.
I say yes just based on the fact that the contract was moved at the perfect time. For all the Webber bashers out there here is something to chew on! In case you forgot this guy was SNUBBED from the All-star game this year. CHRIS WEBBER IS STILL A CAPABLE ALL-STAR!!! His efficiency was way down but he still should have been an All-star this year. Chris was moved right at the peak of his production and I would have done the same to move his deal. Unfortunately Webber makes too much money for not making us a contender and his cap killer contract would have been impossible to move, if his production tapered off, until that last year of his deal.
My vote was "Don't know yet..." because we don't.
The only way to judge now is to weigh how much more of a chance the team with Webber had to compete for a title versus how much easier it will be to reload by trading him in the middle of this last season. My guess is that the benefits of trading him when it was done won't be very significant. If a couple of nice deals are made this summer I will be happy that my guess is wrong, but if things aren't done until later you wonder whether they could have finished this season together first.
So of course we don't know yet, but I'm still leaning slightly towards "no" with plenty of hope for "yes".
The only way to judge now is to weigh how much more of a chance the team with Webber had to compete for a title versus how much easier it will be to reload by trading him in the middle of this last season. My guess is that the benefits of trading him when it was done won't be very significant. If a couple of nice deals are made this summer I will be happy that my guess is wrong, but if things aren't done until later you wonder whether they could have finished this season together first.
So of course we don't know yet, but I'm still leaning slightly towards "no" with plenty of hope for "yes".
I'm with you. As a long time Kings fan, I am hopeful that something positive will come out of the trade, and that in the long term, we will be a better team for it. Also as a long time Kings fan, and one that appreciates everything Webb brought to this franchise, this trade still hurts me to think about. I know that no player is truely untouchable, but making that trade at that time is still tough to swallow.
I voted for to soon to tell, because I am hoping that GP has something up his sleeve, but if the trade was made for the purposes of THIS season then IMHO, it's a flop. I believe it was a long term move, and we will have to see how it plays out to determine if it was a good move. Like Brick said, the next two years will tell the tale, because come year 4 you'd have teams jumping on that trade just to get salary relief.
Was it a GREAT trade?? The BEST trade ever??? How could anyone really believe that? In my opinion, the only thing that would make this a great trade is if Webber had seriously reinjured the knee this year, and was facing another surgery. Otherwise, I think we could have gotten just as much for him this off season as we did in February.
I voted for to soon to tell, because I am hoping that GP has something up his sleeve, but if the trade was made for the purposes of THIS season then IMHO, it's a flop. I believe it was a long term move, and we will have to see how it plays out to determine if it was a good move. Like Brick said, the next two years will tell the tale, because come year 4 you'd have teams jumping on that trade just to get salary relief.
Was it a GREAT trade?? The BEST trade ever??? How could anyone really believe that? In my opinion, the only thing that would make this a great trade is if Webber had seriously reinjured the knee this year, and was facing another surgery. Otherwise, I think we could have gotten just as much for him this off season as we did in February.
im a girl first of all, lol. and i was trying to say "that Webber hasnt been himself since the injury. Thats why he needed to move on. He also takes a LOT OF MONEY. I dont think he deserves that much either. PLus, we dont have to be bothered of when Chris will be healthy or not. Sometimes his knee starts gets hurt so he cant play a number of games." but i dont agree with the best trade in history. I understand what your saying, about everything and i do agree with you in some parts, but some of them i dont agree with you on. Right now i think its just too early to tell. Me and you already know that we dont agree with the whole Webber trade, so im not gonna sit here and try to defend my part of the story, becasue your not going to agree with it, lol. So.... lets just not go there again.
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know that where i agree with you. i wasnt a fan back in those days so i really dont know. I'm sure webber was a huge part of that success. and right now i dont think any of us know if the webber trade was bad or not, cause like you said it was bad timing it was in the middle of the season. so im gonna just stay out of this conversation becasue right now i having nothing to base my belief on becuase if you look at it right now, trade webber was a HuGe mistake. But in time that might change, but i dont know cause thats the future and i dont have a crystal ball sitting in front of me.
That's a silly argument, and one that leads me to wonder how long you have been a Kings fan. Of all of the players you listed above only Christie and Divac were ever significant, and only Christie was of any significance in last year's playoffs (Vlade having checked out sometime in March or so). Hell, Fundy wasn;t even on the roster last year, and Mass wasn't on the playoff roster.
And if you don't think our previous incarnations would have been able to handle a second tier team making its first playoff appearance in years like the Sonics...well, don't even know what to say. We were a true elite team. Annually competing for the best record in the league. And you better pretty much have been the same if you wanted to beat us (indeed I believe Minn had the #2 record in the league, Dallas the year before #1 (and they beat us only due to injury), the Lakers were 3x defending champs etc. The Seattles of the world were just fodder were a team at our level.
And if you don't think our previous incarnations would have been able to handle a second tier team making its first playoff appearance in years like the Sonics...well, don't even know what to say. We were a true elite team. Annually competing for the best record in the league. And you better pretty much have been the same if you wanted to beat us (indeed I believe Minn had the #2 record in the league, Dallas the year before #1 (and they beat us only due to injury), the Lakers were 3x defending champs etc. The Seattles of the world were just fodder were a team at our level.
1034 stated the most important fact that IMHO seems to be under-appreciated here. The Kings stopped being an "elite" team when Webber went down with the last major knee injury. The subsequent Webber-trade was really more of a house-keeping task.
A lot of fans continue to live in the past with regards to Chris Webber. When Chris went down, the Kings changed forever. The decline of the Kings was the direct result of Webber's knee injury, not the subsequent player-trades.
The whole story will unfold next season.
A lot of fans continue to live in the past with regards to Chris Webber. When Chris went down, the Kings changed forever. The decline of the Kings was the direct result of Webber's knee injury, not the subsequent player-trades.
The whole story will unfold next season.
Why is it living in the past when THIS YEAR he has been able to put up comparable stats to what he had been able to achieve before?
The decline of the Kings was the direct result of a lot of things, not just Webber's injury. It's just easier to pick on him ... and point the accusing finger of blame in his direction. Always has been for some people.
The decline of the Kings was the direct result of a lot of things, not just Webber's injury. It's just easier to pick on him ... and point the accusing finger of blame in his direction. Always has been for some people.
I believe a new chapter will indeed be writtien next season. I don't think it has quite the ending some seem to.
If the Kings claim to elite status died with Chris' injury, what do we need to do now to regain it? To lose this mantle of mediocrity we have assumed? We need a young superstar, in the mold of the old Webb, a player who has fire and passion and skill. Who makes his team mates better, who cares about the Kings as a HIS team and not just a job.
The reverbations of this trade shall be large, and far reaching. In order to return to elite status, there are a LOT of changes that need to be made, and they will probably include players we currently think of as 'the core' because that 'core' is nothing better than average right now.
If the Kings claim to elite status died with Chris' injury, what do we need to do now to regain it? To lose this mantle of mediocrity we have assumed? We need a young superstar, in the mold of the old Webb, a player who has fire and passion and skill. Who makes his team mates better, who cares about the Kings as a HIS team and not just a job.
The reverbations of this trade shall be large, and far reaching. In order to return to elite status, there are a LOT of changes that need to be made, and they will probably include players we currently think of as 'the core' because that 'core' is nothing better than average right now.
Last year Webb was not nearly as healthy as he was this year, and we went to game 7 of the round 2. This year we went to game 5 of round 1. Hard to compare, isn't it? Webb stepped up big in the playoffs last year, when he was barely recovering from the surgery. Hard to know what he COULD have done this year if playing on the Kings, isn't it?
Did things change when Webb got injured? Of course, we were a better team with a completely healthy Webber. Yes, without the injury, our best shot at a championship was that year, and I remember watching Webb get taken off the court, and thinking there goes our season. It'd be silly to say anything else. But Webb brought a lot to this team, even after this injury, and while we can argue all night about when this team stopped being "elite" I just have to say that a few months ago a lot of people thought we were (including many of the players) and now no one would hesitate to say we are not.
Would we have have won a championship this year? Highly, highly, unlikely. But with the players we had, and the team experience and oncourt chemistry we had, when we were healthy, yeah, I would have called us an elite team. Not elite as in favored to win it all, or even elite as in one of the best 5 teams, but elite as in, if we were all healthy & playing well, I liked our chances against most teams in a 7 game series.
I could go on about this for hours but it boils down to several key things. He was our best player before the trade in scoring and rebounds but most of all his leadership and that's what we need. The trade would ahve been more acceptable to me if we'd really got something in return. No offense to those 3 but they haven't exactly wowed us since they got here. It's still early and they might but it's unlikely and unless we can trade them for a "star", it didn't help us. Yes he's 33 but news flash players in the NBA do play in their 30's and some of them even play well (Reggie, Stockton,Malone to name just 3). He was All Star caliber and we miss that. How many other players were consistently scoring triple doubles? He has a bad knee,OK but these are the Kings and if we shipped someone off every time they got hurt we'd have no-one left. We could get KG or LBJ (hypothetically speaking)but how long before they're injured? In the long run it may pay off but how long do we have to wait? Unfortunately the Kings as we have known them were dying and that trade put the nail in the coffin. The only possible good thing I can see is freeing up some money but it's not enough to make it worth it. Chris gave us direction and purpose, something obviously lacking now. I could be wrong 10 years down the road and it might be the best thing that ever happened to this team but I'm not holding my breath.
BTW I want to ask what does how long you've been a fan have to do with opinions? It doesn't matter if you've been a Kings supporter for 5 months, 5 or 50 years, your opinions are valid. That's what this forum is all about. Not all of us had the good fortune to be introduced to this team at a young age. Some, like me became fans more recently but does that make our thoughts and comments any less valid?
Just my 2 cents.
BTW I want to ask what does how long you've been a fan have to do with opinions? It doesn't matter if you've been a Kings supporter for 5 months, 5 or 50 years, your opinions are valid. That's what this forum is all about. Not all of us had the good fortune to be introduced to this team at a young age. Some, like me became fans more recently but does that make our thoughts and comments any less valid?
Just my 2 cents.
Loopymitch, i've only been following the Kings for the past three seasons.
I dont think that short time frame makes my opinions any less valid, it just means that i cant speak from experience when i post a comment or view.
I think experience does lend weight and credibility to an arguement because you can make specific reference to a circumstance similar to the one being discussed. Perhaps, if i had grown up in the USA or had spent significant time there I would have absorbed enough media comment on historic nba events to give credance to my views now. However, as i didnt i can only 'tell it as i see it' (or in my can read and hear it, the Kings are only on telly once or twice a season).
I dont think that makes my point of view worthless, just, on balance of probabilites, im less likely to win an arguement against a fan with a different point of view who can draw on history to support his/hers claims.
The great thing about the community we have here is that i dont feel intimidated when i post my opinion because the chat and banter is friendly.
I dont think that short time frame makes my opinions any less valid, it just means that i cant speak from experience when i post a comment or view.
I think experience does lend weight and credibility to an arguement because you can make specific reference to a circumstance similar to the one being discussed. Perhaps, if i had grown up in the USA or had spent significant time there I would have absorbed enough media comment on historic nba events to give credance to my views now. However, as i didnt i can only 'tell it as i see it' (or in my can read and hear it, the Kings are only on telly once or twice a season).
I dont think that makes my point of view worthless, just, on balance of probabilites, im less likely to win an arguement against a fan with a different point of view who can draw on history to support his/hers claims.
The great thing about the community we have here is that i dont feel intimidated when i post my opinion because the chat and banter is friendly.
My comments were specifically addressed to Bballkingsrock, whom I know personally. He is only 13. My point was and is that since he is so young he can't remember any of the things that happened before the team was actually good. So, in that sense, he hasn't seen what it can be like to root for a mediocre or even poor team. He's been blessed. And, in another sense, he's been robbed of the joys of watching as the team began to improve, actually win games and - joy of joys - experience the playoffs for the first time.
I am not trying to discriminate against new fans in general in any way, shape or form. If you took my comments that way, I am sorry.
I am not trying to discriminate against new fans in general in any way, shape or form. If you took my comments that way, I am sorry.
T
IMHO The Kings were Webber's team. He was the leader, the superstar, the piece everything moved around. His absence is, i believe the biggest single component to attribute the Kings decline to.
However, it is certainly not the whole story. Looming large in the 'reasons' stakes would be the massive player turnover during the past couple of season. I dont need to list the names here. you know them (and mostly, I would suggest) you miss them. You could argue that the roster turnover started well before CWebb's exit.
Then comes the injury list as long as your arm with the current roster this past season and so its relatively simple to point at these key reasons for the decline. The exact date of which probably isnt so crucial as getting us back on track as a title contending franchise.
However, it is certainly not the whole story. Looming large in the 'reasons' stakes would be the massive player turnover during the past couple of season. I dont need to list the names here. you know them (and mostly, I would suggest) you miss them. You could argue that the roster turnover started well before CWebb's exit.
Then comes the injury list as long as your arm with the current roster this past season and so its relatively simple to point at these key reasons for the decline. The exact date of which probably isnt so crucial as getting us back on track as a title contending franchise.
thesanityannex - Teams have come back from injuries before. What REALLY started the decline was the tightening of the purse strings, IMHO. It started with the Jon Barry trade for...Mateen Cleaves. Although it didn't seem like a lot at the time it happened, it was clearly setting the tone of what would come in the future. The decline continued with the failure to even make an offer to Jim Jackson and simply let him walk away. We may have tried to justify it by saying we wanted to give Gerald Wallace more time to develop but it certainly looks like a monetary decision in hindsight. The decision NOT to retain Vlade was monetary, as was the Christie-Mobley trade AND, of course, the Webber scenario.
IMHO it's financial considerations that have caused the current decline in the team. And I'm not blaming the Maloofs. It's their business to run as they see fit. If they're not willing to continue to allow Petrie a blank check, then that's their wont.
Webber's knee was never the major cause of anything. It's certainly a convenient excuse but it is NOT the cause of this team's decline IMHO.
IMHO it's financial considerations that have caused the current decline in the team. And I'm not blaming the Maloofs. It's their business to run as they see fit. If they're not willing to continue to allow Petrie a blank check, then that's their wont.
Webber's knee was never the major cause of anything. It's certainly a convenient excuse but it is NOT the cause of this team's decline IMHO.
Another good post from London^. I have to agree, while it may be the single biggest reason for our decline, Webbs knee/absence certainly isn't the only reason. But I think the moves this year were finally too much to overcome, and the players we had left just didn't have enough to get it done in the playoffs.
I disagree. Even though it actually may have been one of the previous ankle sprains, Webber's decline through injury was the start of the team's slide. I'm not singling out Webber to blame or saying it's all his fault, and that I hate him for it. Injuries are an unfortunate part of the game. But the fact is that Webber around 2001 and 2002 was an elite player, a legit superstar and MVP candidate who outplayed everyone not named Shaq (that's an actual qute from a midseason SI from around that time, look it up if you don't beleive me).
After the knee, however, he wasn't the same. He was still good, and getting better as you say. But we won't ever see the same Webb as before. Sure, he'll adjust his game to make the best of what he has, and maybe he'll make another All Star team or two. But he probably won't be better than Duncan or Garnett, he probably won't be an MVP. After the injury, it's not fair to ask him to be that. But, a few years ago, he WAS that. And that's part of what made us an elite team.
Of course, we can't ignore the small moves to tighten purse strings and what have you. But once your superstar goes down, you realize that your margin of error is a whole lot less.
After the knee, however, he wasn't the same. He was still good, and getting better as you say. But we won't ever see the same Webb as before. Sure, he'll adjust his game to make the best of what he has, and maybe he'll make another All Star team or two. But he probably won't be better than Duncan or Garnett, he probably won't be an MVP. After the injury, it's not fair to ask him to be that. But, a few years ago, he WAS that. And that's part of what made us an elite team.
Of course, we can't ignore the small moves to tighten purse strings and what have you. But once your superstar goes down, you realize that your margin of error is a whole lot less.
LP - thesanityannex asked what I thought was the base cause for the team's decline. I stand by my opinion.
And, for the record, the "small moves to tighten purse strings" were not, IMHO, small.
Had Webber NOT been traded because of FINANCIAL considerations, I think we would have done better - especially once Brad was able to return.
Our decline isn't over, BTW. If something isn't done to drastically improve the current roster, we'll be lucky to get 40 wins next year, let alone 50.
Just my three cents, of course...
And, for the record, the "small moves to tighten purse strings" were not, IMHO, small.
Had Webber NOT been traded because of FINANCIAL considerations, I think we would have done better - especially once Brad was able to return.
Our decline isn't over, BTW. If something isn't done to drastically improve the current roster, we'll be lucky to get 40 wins next year, let alone 50.
Just my three cents, of course...
T
VF21 said:
LP - Our decline isn't over, BTW. If something isn't done to drastically improve the current roster, we'll be lucky to get 40 wins next year, let alone 50.
Just my three cents, of course...
Just my three cents, of course...
i thought we were lucky to get 50 wins with the roster this year, webb and post-webb. considering injuries that is.