To post or not to post?
- Thread starter bajaden
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The Warriors don't have anybody that can guard Cousins. They certainly can't get away with using Draymond Green on him as they did against Marc Gasol - not in a playoff style game anyway.
Even though he had little help and the Warriors keyed on him, he still averaged 24 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2 stl, and 1.25 blk against Golden State this season. How is exactly is that a scheme that others should follow?
Imagine what Cuz would have done to the Warriors defense if he had capable shooters to pass to.
I know the Warriors, Rockets, etc. are the flavor of the month right now, but the most consistent way to win is with a dominant BIG. Most teams don't have one, which is why they opt for the style that they do. And you can win that way. However, you're more likely to win with a 27-year old Olajwon, Shaq, or Duncan that you are with a 27-year old Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook or James Harden. Nothing has changed in that regard
People say that the game has changed, but last I looked the star players with the most rings (still actively playing) either is a dominant BIG or happened to play alongside one. Duncan has 5 rings as a dominant BIG. Kobe Bryant also has 5 rings, but 3 of them were as a sidekick to the most dominant BIG of the past 20 years and the other 2 were with Pau Gasol - a top 3 big at the time.
I think it's been proven over time that the best way to win is from inside-out, not outside-in. The Warriors may indeed win a title playing outside-in this season, but they wouldn't beat a team like the Spurs, Lakers or Rockets who won their titles playing inside out.
The Kings need to understand that they have a chance to become one of the rare teams that can play like those 3 teams mentioned and resist the temptation to follow the crowd. They can still include the 3 ball as staple of the offense, it just needs to come off double teams out of the post like Houston used to do with Olajuwon. Surround Boogie with shooters and let him decide when to kick it out and when not to. The rest is up to Big Cuz and how much he continues to improve.
Even though he had little help and the Warriors keyed on him, he still averaged 24 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2 stl, and 1.25 blk against Golden State this season. How is exactly is that a scheme that others should follow?
Imagine what Cuz would have done to the Warriors defense if he had capable shooters to pass to.
I know the Warriors, Rockets, etc. are the flavor of the month right now, but the most consistent way to win is with a dominant BIG. Most teams don't have one, which is why they opt for the style that they do. And you can win that way. However, you're more likely to win with a 27-year old Olajwon, Shaq, or Duncan that you are with a 27-year old Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook or James Harden. Nothing has changed in that regard
People say that the game has changed, but last I looked the star players with the most rings (still actively playing) either is a dominant BIG or happened to play alongside one. Duncan has 5 rings as a dominant BIG. Kobe Bryant also has 5 rings, but 3 of them were as a sidekick to the most dominant BIG of the past 20 years and the other 2 were with Pau Gasol - a top 3 big at the time.
I think it's been proven over time that the best way to win is from inside-out, not outside-in. The Warriors may indeed win a title playing outside-in this season, but they wouldn't beat a team like the Spurs, Lakers or Rockets who won their titles playing inside out.
The Kings need to understand that they have a chance to become one of the rare teams that can play like those 3 teams mentioned and resist the temptation to follow the crowd. They can still include the 3 ball as staple of the offense, it just needs to come off double teams out of the post like Houston used to do with Olajuwon. Surround Boogie with shooters and let him decide when to kick it out and when not to. The rest is up to Big Cuz and how much he continues to improve.
So it wasnt the main point of the article, that the post game is one way to deal with the switching of pick&rolls?
We are still in the 90's and zoning up is not allowed or why do we refer to Olajuwon's Rockets?
If playing out of the post is so great and the best way to win games, why did the Spurs abandon post play for the most part, even though never aging Timmy is still more than capable to drop 20/10 as a post player any given night?
I dont get it..The whole league is crazy, nearly every young big man prospect is trained the wrong way, everyone is just a copy cat too dumb to realize, how this game should be played.
We are still in the 90's and zoning up is not allowed or why do we refer to Olajuwon's Rockets?
If playing out of the post is so great and the best way to win games, why did the Spurs abandon post play for the most part, even though never aging Timmy is still more than capable to drop 20/10 as a post player any given night?
I dont get it..The whole league is crazy, nearly every young big man prospect is trained the wrong way, everyone is just a copy cat too dumb to realize, how this game should be played.
The article actually suggested, that teams should rely on back-to-the-basket play only, if there's a clear mismatch. Funny thing is Boogie is a clear mismatch for half the league.
Then people also miss the fact, that even under Malone Boogie had less than 35% of his possessions coming from post-ups. SportVU metrics believe, that Marc Gasol and Lamarcus Aldridge had bigger share of their offense coming from post-ups this season.
At some point Duncan dropped some weight to regain quickness, plus he always had passing and worked on his faceup game/shooting. He's not a dominant post up player for a very long time: this year 28.7% of his shots came from the post with only .81 PPP.
If every big man prospect is trained to play outside of the post, they are also not used to defend around the rim.
Then people also miss the fact, that even under Malone Boogie had less than 35% of his possessions coming from post-ups. SportVU metrics believe, that Marc Gasol and Lamarcus Aldridge had bigger share of their offense coming from post-ups this season.
At some point Duncan dropped some weight to regain quickness, plus he always had passing and worked on his faceup game/shooting. He's not a dominant post up player for a very long time: this year 28.7% of his shots came from the post with only .81 PPP.
If every big man prospect is trained to play outside of the post, they are also not used to defend around the rim.
The Warriors have a guy named Bogut if you forgot.. I think he's the best player in defending Cousins out of the entire NBA. He has the size to match up with him and Cousins always struggles vs GSW.
Even with those stats, he shot only .440% from the field.
The Warriors are actually very good in recovering. They have great off-ball defenders in Iggy, Barnes, Klay, and etc. They're very smart and disciplined on defense. The only way to actually beat them is if we have shooters who could pas and shoot.. via Spurs.
All 3 of those players are better than Cousins. You're comparing GOATs and top 10 players of all NBA history to good players now.
I think the NBA does lack dominant big men like Cousins so it's changed to the point where you can win..without one. (as crazy as that may sound). So the question is, if the game has changed so much, how can big men/post players play to this new style? That's the entire question.
Duncan and Shaq are goats and HOFs. I could make the argument that Shaq has had Kobe along his side and that Parker/Ginoboli helped Duncan. So it goes both ways. But of course, both bigs are dominant. I think trying to use the example that the 2000s are part of today's game is wrong.
The game changes every day. Combo guards were frowned upon..even at Curry in 2009. If you were a tweener, you had a disadvantage and it's frowned upon..Derrick Williams(2011). Now, we have guys like Curry, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, Draymond Green, Middleton, Morris Twins, and etc dominating the league... Keep in mind, a few years ago being "untraditional" was frowned upon throughout the entire NBA.
I don't disagree with you at all on the fact that we could become one of those rare teams. I think it's just going to be hard to assemble.
Here's the perfect roster next to Cousins without using any All Stars:
PG- Jrue Holiday
SG- Wesley Matthews
SF- Chandler Parsons
PF- Rudy Gobert
C- Demarcus Cousins
Here's the closest thing to do that roster that could actually realistically happen depending on a few things..
PG- Brandon Knight
SG- Danny Green
SF- Rudy Gay
PF- WCS
C- Demarcus Cousins
Even with those stats, he shot only .440% from the field.
The Warriors are actually very good in recovering. They have great off-ball defenders in Iggy, Barnes, Klay, and etc. They're very smart and disciplined on defense. The only way to actually beat them is if we have shooters who could pas and shoot.. via Spurs.
All 3 of those players are better than Cousins. You're comparing GOATs and top 10 players of all NBA history to good players now.
I think the NBA does lack dominant big men like Cousins so it's changed to the point where you can win..without one. (as crazy as that may sound). So the question is, if the game has changed so much, how can big men/post players play to this new style? That's the entire question.
Duncan and Shaq are goats and HOFs. I could make the argument that Shaq has had Kobe along his side and that Parker/Ginoboli helped Duncan. So it goes both ways. But of course, both bigs are dominant. I think trying to use the example that the 2000s are part of today's game is wrong.
The game changes every day. Combo guards were frowned upon..even at Curry in 2009. If you were a tweener, you had a disadvantage and it's frowned upon..Derrick Williams(2011). Now, we have guys like Curry, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, Draymond Green, Middleton, Morris Twins, and etc dominating the league... Keep in mind, a few years ago being "untraditional" was frowned upon throughout the entire NBA.
I don't disagree with you at all on the fact that we could become one of those rare teams. I think it's just going to be hard to assemble.
Here's the perfect roster next to Cousins without using any All Stars:
PG- Jrue Holiday
SG- Wesley Matthews
SF- Chandler Parsons
PF- Rudy Gobert
C- Demarcus Cousins
Here's the closest thing to do that roster that could actually realistically happen depending on a few things..
PG- Brandon Knight
SG- Danny Green
SF- Rudy Gay
PF- WCS
C- Demarcus Cousins
Stop with the nonsense:
- only Iggy can be called a great defender among that group, and even he is starting to slip due to age. Warriors defense isn't built on having a roster of elite defenders. It's based on 3 elite ones, and the rest of the team filled with average/above average defenders with good size/length, that can cover for each other. It was also built by former Thibodeau assistant Ron Adams, who was let go by Bulls due to a conflict last off-season. Bulls defense really slipped this year by the way. I can't imagine why.
- combo guards were very much in the picture in 2009: Randy Foye at #7 (2006), Acie Law at #11 (2007), DJ Augustin at #9 (2008), Jerryd Bayless at #11 (2008) and Jonny Flynn at #6 (2009). Some simply thought, that Curry is just not good enough with the ball to qualify even as a combo.
- tweeners were already frowned upon by 2011 indeed, and one GM thought he was a visionary. Ok, it was just Kahn being Kahn.
- in the only non-Corbin game with Warriors Boogie got the entire center rotation glued to the bench and 18 FTs from their foul trouble (Harden and Kobe were next two in FTA in a single game among Warriors' opponents this season at 16 each). In fact Warriors and Kings were trading punches even with Ben cold until the middle of the 3rd quarter, when Sessions-Stauskas-Williams(as a PF) crew was rolled out on the court.
- Draymond Green is not a tweener. He has good base to defend in the post and quickness to stay with guys outside simultaneously. He came to Combine with 12% body fat, but still shown he can move laterally. Middleton is SG/SF. Morris twins play according to their size: bigger Markief is a PF and smaller Marcus is a SF (and a bad defender). None of these guys dominate the league. And even Green is just doing super-glue guy routine, simply fitting perfectly into the cracks of Warriors starting five.
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Well, we did try to increase the pace of our game under another not-so-good coach (Corbin) but players also forgot to play well and defend at a level they were defending under coach Malone. And hence, we lose more and saw Vivek/FO lead coach Corbin out the door. And under coach Karl, the season was completely lost that players and coach just don't have that hunger to win games anymore. Lots of factors affects a game.
Again, learning how to increase pace is just one way our team can increase the potential to score, involve more players, and win. Every Championship team had incorporated it one way or another in their system whether they have a great post-up player or not, and used it to a certain level, and on the opportuned time. Even our very own glorious team of the past lead by great post up players Webber and Divac had used it. Vivek/FO are smart (and not stupid at all) to call for an increase pace. But sadly, the Vivek/PDA were grossly misunderstood and hey were thought to be ONLY FOR INCREASING PACE - which is actually very unfair.
Again, learning how to increase pace is just one way our team can increase the potential to score, involve more players, and win. Every Championship team had incorporated it one way or another in their system whether they have a great post-up player or not, and used it to a certain level, and on the opportuned time. Even our very own glorious team of the past lead by great post up players Webber and Divac had used it. Vivek/FO are smart (and not stupid at all) to call for an increase pace. But sadly, the Vivek/PDA were grossly misunderstood and hey were thought to be ONLY FOR INCREASING PACE - which is actually very unfair.
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So, why in hell everyone is talking about the importance of PACE ( change of pace, slow pace, up the tempo, etc.) ever since the beginning of basketball if it has nothing to do with winning?
Have you ever played sport, specifically the game of basketball? Or your experience is purely based on watching?
Now I know why you think that post playing team will always spank the guard dominate team in the playoffs. Everything seems like so black and white for you in basketball. There is only one way to win - your way.
Have you ever played sport, specifically the game of basketball? Or your experience is purely based on watching?
Now I know why you think that post playing team will always spank the guard dominate team in the playoffs. Everything seems like so black and white for you in basketball. There is only one way to win - your way.
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I thought you were so smart in basketball, but now I feel you were actually the complete opposite and just trying to pretend to be so basketball smart.So, why in hell everyone is talking about the importance of PACE ( change of pace, slow pace, up the tempo, etc.) ever since the beginning of basketball if it has nothing to do with winning?
Have you ever played sport, specifically the game of basketball? Or your experience is purely based on watching?
Now I know why you think that post playing team will always spank the guard dominate team in the playoffs. Everything seems like so black and white for you in basketball. There is only one way to win - your way.
You build your team around your best players. You don't build your team around pace because, as he has pointed out, being #1 in pace does not equate to success. However, building around your best player(s) does equate to success.
Now, sometimes building around your best players results in a team that has high pace, but a team with a 270lb center who dominates the low post and isn't known for running the floor well should not fall into that category.
It's really rather simple...
My point is that Vivek/FO were already building around their best players. They were just calling for increased PACE to augment our offense around our best players. They were not actually ALL FOR INCREASING PACE ONLY. The other posters here seem to think we are ONLY for increasing PACE which is wrong. It has been explained so many times before by Vivek/PDA/Corbin. Even Cousins knows about it and agrees with the idea of increasing the pace. Remember his words "I can run"? But somehow those explanations have been ignored over and over again, as if increasing pace is the most stupid thing to do.
Look at the flexibility of the Spurs as a very good example.
Look at the flexibility of the Spurs as a very good example.
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The thing is - Vivek/FO is already building the team around their best players. The increased PACE was called to augment the offense and of course not discounting our most lethal weapon in Cousins. We seem to worry too much that it will not work. Actually, some have dispelled the idea as being stupid already. The same way the idea that guard dominate teams can be successful in the playoffs against post playing teams. And surprise, the Warriors just beat the Grizzlies convincingly.
But we have to try and see how far it can work because at some point and level, one of the requirements to be an elite team is the ability to increase pace and that is whether or not you have a dominant post player. We have to be flexible if we want to be very good. Cousins even agreed and he thinks it will help the team. He even said he can run. And BTW, this team is a vey young team and actually still developing. You can't say the players around Cousins are too old and cannot learn to play at an increase pace.
Again, it is not as if Vivek/FO wanted ONLY an increased in pace. They know there is a certain balance to everything, especially Vivek. When they saw Malone lacking on that balance (meaning Malone's mentality is all defense, iso-plays, and weird in-game adjustments), he got sucked. Corbin also failed. This is why Vivek said they wanted a coach who can be like a jazz conductor. One who can orchestrate/balance things on the court. Good teams are like that. See how Chicago and OKC fired their coaches? And see how Malone has not even been considered for any coaching job upto this point? Vivek/FO are not that stupid as many of us think they are.
Do you really think Vivek/FO are collectively that stupid not to know those simple things?
Am I suppose to believe Brick's (rigid ideas and proven wrong by the way) and who has not had basketbal experience or any meaningful work experience in the NBA or Vivek/FO who at least have actual experience in the NBA?
But we have to try and see how far it can work because at some point and level, one of the requirements to be an elite team is the ability to increase pace and that is whether or not you have a dominant post player. We have to be flexible if we want to be very good. Cousins even agreed and he thinks it will help the team. He even said he can run. And BTW, this team is a vey young team and actually still developing. You can't say the players around Cousins are too old and cannot learn to play at an increase pace.
Again, it is not as if Vivek/FO wanted ONLY an increased in pace. They know there is a certain balance to everything, especially Vivek. When they saw Malone lacking on that balance (meaning Malone's mentality is all defense, iso-plays, and weird in-game adjustments), he got sucked. Corbin also failed. This is why Vivek said they wanted a coach who can be like a jazz conductor. One who can orchestrate/balance things on the court. Good teams are like that. See how Chicago and OKC fired their coaches? And see how Malone has not even been considered for any coaching job upto this point? Vivek/FO are not that stupid as many of us think they are.
Do you really think Vivek/FO are collectively that stupid not to know those simple things?
Am I suppose to believe Brick's (rigid ideas and proven wrong by the way) and who has not had basketbal experience or any meaningful work experience in the NBA or Vivek/FO who at least have actual experience in the NBA?
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They could be. FO peeps are fired every year for being stupid.
If it snows in Oklahoma does that mean global warming is not a scientific fact? Nothing has been proven wrong.
Listen, there are plenty of us here with plenty of basketball experience. Whether it's playing for, coaching with, learning from hall of fame coaches, some of us have more basketball experience than the guy who just got demoted to number cruncher, so I'd be careful about getting into a "show me what you got" type post. Any pro experience? Don't know, don't care, but suffice to say that there is plenty of experience out here in KF.comland.
Some posters may not have any experience, but that doesn't make them any less intelligent.
Vivek's main experience in the NBA has been money. Not like, "yo dawg, that's money." Deep pockets.
If it snows in Oklahoma does that mean global warming is not a scientific fact? Nothing has been proven wrong.
Listen, there are plenty of us here with plenty of basketball experience. Whether it's playing for, coaching with, learning from hall of fame coaches, some of us have more basketball experience than the guy who just got demoted to number cruncher, so I'd be careful about getting into a "show me what you got" type post. Any pro experience? Don't know, don't care, but suffice to say that there is plenty of experience out here in KF.comland.
Some posters may not have any experience, but that doesn't make them any less intelligent.
Vivek's main experience in the NBA has been money. Not like, "yo dawg, that's money." Deep pockets.
How, pray tell, do you know what basketball experience Brick has had? And further, what difference does it freaking make? I'm saying this publicly - you keep making this personal about Bricklayer OR ANYONE ELSE and you're not going to be here much longer. It's not about Bricklayer being a moderator; it's about him being obviously very knowledgeable about basketball and you continually trying to make yourself look good by calling him out.
You've poked your last stick. Deal with it.
You've poked your last stick. Deal with it.
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So, why in hell everyone is talking about the importance of PACE ( change of pace, slow pace, up the tempo, etc.) ever since the beginning of basketball if it has nothing to do with winning?
Have you ever played sport, specifically the game of basketball? Or your experience is purely based on watching?
Now I know why you think that post playing team will always spank the guard dominate team in the playoffs. Everything seems like so black and white for you in basketball. There is only one way to win - your way.
Have you ever played sport, specifically the game of basketball? Or your experience is purely based on watching?
Now I know why you think that post playing team will always spank the guard dominate team in the playoffs. Everything seems like so black and white for you in basketball. There is only one way to win - your way.
A little general information:
Just for fun Willie's post passing to KAT:
First couple of passes, what can be easier than that, right? Well, it's not about passes themselves, but rather movement after releasing the ball. Staying in the same place you just passed to the post from is the biggest sin for entry passer. Basically whole Kentucky team outside of WCS and sometimes Booker was doing that:
Just for fun Willie's post passing to KAT:
First couple of passes, what can be easier than that, right? Well, it's not about passes themselves, but rather movement after releasing the ball. Staying in the same place you just passed to the post from is the biggest sin for entry passer. Basically whole Kentucky team outside of WCS and sometimes Booker was doing that:
2:44 on the first video
Boogie at the 5 (ideally on a mismatch, which includes many centers/stretch-4s), WCS already boxing out his man at the 4, Gay, McLemore, and Collison at the 1, 2, and 3 spots (not necessarily respectively) ready to shoot... what a defensive nightmare.
The play at 5:13 is just absolutely
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Boogie at the 5 (ideally on a mismatch, which includes many centers/stretch-4s), WCS already boxing out his man at the 4, Gay, McLemore, and Collison at the 1, 2, and 3 spots (not necessarily respectively) ready to shoot... what a defensive nightmare.
The play at 5:13 is just absolutely
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What I'll never understand is how this Youtube coach seems to know more about basketball than any of the coaching staff of the Kings for the past 10 years.
The Kings have not demonstrated they know these basic sets.
And the "high-low" action at 6:54 is criminal that the Kings' staff has not implemented!
How can they not know one of the most basic ways to beat a fronting defense?!
As I've said before, what are the Kings waiting for to implement these basic plays? Until after Cousins is gone?
The Kings have not demonstrated they know these basic sets.
And the "high-low" action at 6:54 is criminal that the Kings' staff has not implemented!
How can they not know one of the most basic ways to beat a fronting defense?!
As I've said before, what are the Kings waiting for to implement these basic plays? Until after Cousins is gone?