Theus: Weak willed or weak coaching skills or ? (split from grade thread)

[jcassio]

I do think the Kings played well in the second half. But... I can't get it out of my head - the idea that the King's surge in the second half was more a result of the Heat's intention to not win. I'll stop short of saying that I think the Heat were tanking the game (although it is tempting).

Somehow I just know that, if this had been the final game of the season and Riley needed the win to sneak into the playoffs, he would have coached the second half differently (rather than lose and move a couple of spots up in the draft). But it's so obvious that Riley has a plan, and that plan includes developing young players now and then snatching up one of the top two picks in the draft. Is that what's called rebuilding?

Reggie can coach, but he just doesn't see the bigger picture. In fact, giving Moore 30+ minutes and giving Sheldon Williams 25 seconds is just embarrassing for a team that is supposedly rebuilding.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Reggie can coach, but he just doesn't see the bigger picture. In fact, giving Moore 30+ minutes and giving Sheldon Williams 25 seconds is just embarrassing for a team that is supposedly rebuilding.

I think that Reggie is just 'cutting his teeth' in any way he knows how to at this point. As a first year coach, he has to make an impression to EVERYONE, otherwise he'll have no one. He's trying to win games, which I can respect, and he's right along the lines of where I thought he'd be, as far as win total...I think we'll win another 10 games or so before its all said and done. This year definitely has been more exciting and fun to watch than last for DAMN sure, and brings a bit of hope to an otherwise murky picture of our future before he arrived. Not playing Sheldon probably has alot to do with things we havent heard about.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think that Reggie is just 'cutting his teeth' in any way he knows how to at this point. As a first year coach, he has to make an impression to EVERYONE, otherwise he'll have no one. He's trying to win games, which I can respect, and he's right along the lines of where I thought he'd be, as far as win total...I think we'll win another 10 games or so before its all said and done. This year definitely has been more exciting and fun to watch than last for DAMN sure, and brings a bit of hope to an otherwise murky picture of our future before he arrived. Not playing Sheldon probably has alot to do with things we havent heard about.

I think Reggie is a competent coach threatening to be overshadowed by his own overblown ego. One more time, and this was said last year: in the NBA it does not matter how good a coach you are if you can't manage egos and get your players to play for you. Its a players' league. And Reggie should know that. And if you are goign to pee off your players, you'd better at least be doing it in pursuit of ulterior goals for your franchise/front office. Unfortunately Reggie's ego is writing checks he cannot possibly cash -- you can't pee off your players AND work against your bosses. That's the surest way a competent coach hired for his PR possibilities can fall out of favor and end up guest starring on sitcoms next season.

 

[jcassio]

I think that Reggie is just 'cutting his teeth' in any way he knows how to at this point. As a first year coach, he has to make an impression to EVERYONE, otherwise he'll have no one. He's trying to win games, which I can respect, and he's right along the lines of where I thought he'd be, as far as win total...I think we'll win another 10 games or so before its all said and done. This year definitely has been more exciting and fun to watch than last for DAMN sure, and brings a bit of hope to an otherwise murky picture of our future before he arrived. Not playing Sheldon probably has alot to do with things we havent heard about.

It's debatable whether giving Sheldon some real minutes at PF (at Moore's expense) would affect the number of games we can win. Despite the intangibles, Moore makes a lot of mistakes. We can probably agree that, minute for minute, Sheldon would have better stats than Moore, but who knows how many mistakes Sheldon would make along the way? And so obviously Reggie has more confidence in Moore right now. But it's time now to start giving Sheldon some real minutes.

 

[bloom]

I don’t mind Reggie wanting to win, that’s because I want my team to win as well. But I wish the guy would play some guys more than others. We have Spencer, Quincy and Sheldon who definitely need playing time. We really don’t need Anthony playing minutes because I can’t see him past this year (I hope). Mikki’s time can be cut a little to give room for Spencer or Sheldon to play. But according to the sacbee article I don’t think that’s going to happen.

“Theus, it should be noted, continues to play the veterans extensive minutes while Petrie quietly presses for more sightings of Spencer Hawes, Quincy Douby, Shelden Williams and Francisco García.”

I know Reggie wants to compete, but I think we still can compete with one of these guys on the floor.

Source: http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/758034.html

 

[kennadog]

Gotta wonder if anybody listens to GP.

 

[fnordius]

“Theus, it should be noted, continues to play the veterans extensive minutes while Petrie quietly presses for more sightings of Spencer Hawes, Quincy Douby, Shelden Williams and Francisco García.”
Source: http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/758034.html

That makes it sound as if Theus is caught between Artest's "play the vets" perspective and GP's desire to play the kids.

IMO, this is by far the biggest black mark on Theus' record. I hope that he quickly figures out that he's on the wrong side. He shouldn't have to wait for Artest to be traded before he starts doing things correctly.

 

[kennadog]

I just think Theus can't bear to not do everything possible to win the game he's coaching each time, future be d**ned.

 

[Glenn]

I just think Theus can't bear to not do everything possible to win the game he's coaching each time, future be d**ned.

I would think this is true. The last coach to have this record got fired. Granted Theus is not Muss but Theus can't be sure his job is safe. How many coaches have been told they won't be fired a few days before they are fired?

I true tanking has to be at the front office level. Don't expect your players or coaches to roll over and play dead. If you have coaches and players who will do that, you have the wrong ones on your team. Just an opinion, but I want competitive fires to be burning brightly.

 

[tyrant]

try something that works. if you want to win you're certainly not playing the right guys. i dont know if theus is just stupid or well, what else could it be. before the heat tanked their last game we were 26-32 with the same lineup we've pretty much had all season. guess what, the results are not going to change the second half of the season.

 

[fnordius]

Granted Theus is not Muss but Theus can't be sure his job is safe.

If that were the issue, you think he'd listen to his boss when he was told to play the kids more. Ignoring one's boss isn't usually a good job security move.

Some combination of personal pride and pressure from vets on the team might get him doing that, though, even if his boss didn't want it or like it.

 

[Glenn]

If that were the issue, you think he'd listen to his boss when he was told to play the kids more. Ignoring one's boss isn't usually a good job security move.

Some combination of personal pride and pressure from vets on the team might get him doing that, though, even if his boss didn't want it or like it.

I understand. It assumes that GP's message was clear that this was an organizational ploy and not just a personal suggestion. We aren't privy to the actual conversation if there was one.

I understand the organization needs to see what Shelden has to bring consistent with his understanding of the offense and defense, maybe play Hawes more but I think it is clear that he is a keeper, and play Douby more as I think his future is unclear.

I REALLY would have a difficult time not trying my damnedest to win if it was clear in my heart that the vets offered a better way to win. If I was standing on the sideline, my mind would be more on the game than several years ahead in time, especially with Ron barking at me. There is a certain eternal optimism and warrior mentality in Ron that is difficult to ignore.

If the team wants to tank, they needed to dump Ron and Miller. Then watch the mess. Don't leave it up to Reggie who has his pride at stake and perhaps his future as a coach. Certainly he wouldn't like the idea if he was hired simply to lose. It would bring to mind the idea that he was hired because he sucked.

 

[Bricklayer]

I REALLY would have a difficult time not trying my damnedest to win if it was clear in my heart that the vets offered a better way to win. If I was standing on the sideline, my mind would be more on the game than several years ahead in time, especially with Ron barking at me. There is a certain eternal optimism and warrior mentality in Ron that is difficult to ignore.

Not hard.

The problem is not that Reggie is such a weak willed wuss that he cannot say no to the nutcase in his midst, its that said nutcase is appealing precisely to Reggie's weak point: his own pride. Reggie wants to be just as dumb as Ron Artest, so he's got his own personal little devil whispering sweet nothings into his ear.

Part of this is of course part of our organizational weakness. With real leadership at the top you have a clear message sent from the top, to the underling coach, who sends it to the even more underling players. Anybody decides to ignore the message, you tell them to go home. As it is the inmates are running the asylum, the coach won't do what's best for the franchise, the players are tired of lsitening to the coach, and damn if I shouldn't have jsut won that last Megamillions $300 million jackpot, bought the team, and cleaned up this garbage.

 

[tyrant]

<-----------wonders if we would be having this discussion if sacramento had a coach with NBA experience

news for the front office or whoever hired this clown.

the NBA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>college

a high school diploma is not equivalent to a masters degree.

 

[gunks]

I gotta say...This recent news about players tuning out the coach and the coach tuning out the GM is unsettling to say the least.



Keep buying those lotto tickets Bricklayer.

 

[Glenn]

Who made the thread title? Quite a choice isn't. Is Theus a weak coach or weak willed? Aren't there any other options? I think he's a rookie coach in a very bad position who was left with Artest and said to "go fix it."

I think he was placed in a lose/lose position.

 

[VF21]

Who made the thread title? Quite a choice isn't. Is Theus a weak coach or weak willed? Aren't there any other options? I think he's a rookie coach in a very bad position who was left with Artest and said to "go fix it."

I think he was placed in a lose/lose position.

I made the thread title. And I've now corrected it. Sorry it offended you. I was actually trying to retain the discussion so it wouldn't be lost in the archives.

It wasn't a poll, BTW, so of course there are other options. I would have gladly changed it had you simply asked.

 

[D13]

Pat Riley could go a whole season without a single win and his job wouldn't be in jeopardy anytime soon.

Reggie needs to think of it like this... regardless if we win another game or stumble to the playoffs this season, he will get another year to show what he can do. He should start preparing for next year now. If he fails miserably in 08/09 he better worry. Develop the kids, chances are they're all gonna be here. Better get them going asap and try to take some pressure off next year.

 

[Glenn]

I made the thread title. And I've now corrected it. Sorry it offended you. I was actually trying to retain the discussion so it wouldn't be lost in the archives.

It wasn't a poll, BTW, so of course there are other options. I would have gladly changed it had you simply asked.

I assumed Brick had changed it and would have reacted differently to my note.

 

[VF21]

I assumed Brick had changed it and would have reacted differently to my note.

Why? You know what happens when you assume.

Next time you could simply drop one of us a PM and resolve the whole matter. I don't understand why it always has to be on the board.

 

[Kingster]

Reynold's Take

On 1140 this morning he said he'd like to see Sheldon Williams play 15-20 minutes a game. He implied he'd like to see Hawes play just as much. He said he would like to see the younger guys play enough to see what they can do for next year, that you could play them in quarters 1-3 without sacrificing the game because most games are determined at the end of the 4th.

LISTEN UP THEUS! MANAGEMENT IS TELLING YOU SOMETHING!

 

[tyrant]

On 1140 this morning he said he'd like to see Sheldon Williams play 15-20 minutes a game. He implied he'd like to see Hawes play just as much. He said he would like to see the younger guys play enough to see what they can do for next year, that you could play them in quarters 1-3 without sacrificing the game because most games are determined at the end of the 4th.

LISTEN UP THEUS! MANAGEMENT IS TELLING YOU SOMETHING!

no lead is safe for sacramento in any quarter

 

[jcassio]

Listening to Reggie on KHTK last evening, he was addressing this very subject of how he determines playing time. I think he does want to play and develop the young guys, but he is obviously conflicted, as he also wants to give the Kings a chance to win every game possible. So Reggie's line-ups and subsequent playing time is based more on match-ups than on how many minutes (in theory) he thinks each player should get.

Well OK, I can understand that, but I'd still like to see him give real minutes to Douby, Williams and Hawes from here on out - even if those minutes are only in quarters 1-3. And to help find those minutes for Williams and Hawes, let's start by cutting back on the Mikki Moore playing time.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I can't blame the coach for trying to win. I can't blame the players for trying to win. That's their job. Even while rebuilding, you don't want to create a culture of losing.

I can blame management, however. It's one thing to tell the coach "play the kids." It's another to force the coach's hand by trading the veterans away. Coach and management need to be on the same level. Management can go a long way to help that happen by setting the tone at the top, making the right moves. The Bibby trade was a start, but not enough, as you kept one of the most competitive, rebuilding-unfriendly players (yes, Ron) in the league on your roster. They can also go a long way by telling Reggie that his job is secure, and that he does not need to reach .500 or whatever to keep his position.

There have been some other positive steps in this regard, along with the Bibby trade. Benching KT was good, although the minutes for Shelden (previously Justin) have not always been forthcoming. But I feel that moving Ron, along with the chemistry gains, would have helped ease the minutes crunch, both by freeing time for the young bigs (as we often go small to find minutes for Salmons) and Douby. Of course, there's nothing you can do now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more of these last-minute no-go's from Ron.

 

[jcassio]

The Bibby trade was a start, but not enough, as you kept one of the most competitive, rebuilding-unfriendly players (yes, Ron) in the league on your roster... I feel that moving Ron, along with the chemistry gains, would have helped ease the minutes crunch, both by freeing time for the young bigs (as we often go small to find minutes for Salmons) and Douby. Of course, there's nothing you can do now, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more of these last-minute no-go's from Ron.

I don't think Ron sits out games because he's upset. I think he's a warrior who thinks he can play - even when hurt - until the pregame warmup when his injury reminds him that he can't help his team on this night. Or that playing on this night will make the injury worse. I'm not a big Artest supporter, but I'm pretty sure that he's the last guy to sit out a game because he's upset.

 

[Packt]

You guys are wrong. Things are going as planned, at least for the most part.

Ron plays because an unhappy Ron is a dangerous Ron. You want Ron to stay as happy as possible and give him more incentive to opt out and test the FA waters. You don't want Ron feeling like he needs another year to try to secure a big contract.

Earlier in the season when Kevin was playing well, there was a lot of love for Theus. Since then, not so much. More people are questioning his ability now than ever, simply due to his handling of Kevin. Theus' handling of the situation is playing out exactly like it should. Kevin has already shown he can play in the league. It's tanking time, and now is the time to keep him on a short leash, and push him to be a better player, to do more. That has left resentment at Theus' foot steps due to Kevin being prematurely anointed the future.

That leaves us with Shelden. He's not playing as much as he should. Probably has to do with Moore being a loud mouth when things aren't going his way. This spotlights a Petrie mistake or short sightedness, again. Don't bring in veterans with non-guarantee contracts. It's essentially a performance based contract, and for Moore to get everything, he needs to contribute. Sitting on the bench and waving a towel for the young guy won't get Geoff to pick-up his contract in full.

 

[VF21]

I will agree with one of your points:

Ron plays because an unhappy Ron is a dangerous Ron. You want Ron to stay as happy as possible and give him more incentive to opt out and test the FA waters. You don't want Ron feeling like he needs another year to try to secure a big contract.

The rest I think are a little less easy to buy into.

 

[VF21]

I don't think Ron sits out games because he's upset. I think he's a warrior who thinks he can play - even when hurt - until the pregame warmup when his injury reminds him that he can't help his team on this night. Or that playing on this night will make the injury worse. I'm not a big Artest supporter, but I'm pretty sure that he's the last guy to sit out a game because he's upset.

You might want to check with Pacer fans before you commit any money to that assumption.

Trying to figure out why Ron Artest does ANYTHING is the way to madness. I don't think he's a bad person; I don't think he's out to hurt the organization; I don't think ... well, that he thinks. I think he acts purely on emotion and that's his main problem.

 

[jcassio]

You might want to check with Pacer fans before you commit any money to that assumption.

I hear you, but I think there's a big difference between being suspended and asking to be traded vs sitting out of an occasional game due to injury or illness.

 

[Kingster]

You might want to check with Pacer fans before you commit any money to that assumption.

Trying to figure out why Ron Artest does ANYTHING is the way to madness. I don't think he's a bad person; I don't think he's out to hurt the organization; I don't think ... well, that he thinks. I think he acts purely on emotion and that's his main problem.

Also known as, "THE FASCINATION OF THE ABOMINATION."