The Discussion We Will Not Have But Maybe Should Thread
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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That's certainly another option, although both are really guards, and Ron is better than either talentwise.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
.We shouldn't worry about John or Kevin since they both are under contract. Either of the two players is tradable if we can get a very good front-court player in return through a multi-players trade.
Bibby, on the other hand, should be traded since the Kings are in a long rebuilding process and his salary is too high for his current role on the team.
Beno is a keeper if he doesn't ask for too much money at the end of this season.
Bibby, on the other hand, should be traded since the Kings are in a long rebuilding process and his salary is too high for his current role on the team.
Beno is a keeper if he doesn't ask for too much money at the end of this season.
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...and don't you think HE knows this? If he continues having the great season that he is, I think he'll at least be asking for the MLE...that's just the way things work in sports these days, you have one decent year, you can ask for(and get)alot more than you're probably worth...ERRRR...Mikki Moore.
Those are all well and good, and though I disagree with some of your points slightly, I still see what you're saying overall.
However, I'm not talking about Kevin's ability or talent-level or his upside. I'm talking about his attitude. He is a second-fiddle, "take what may come" type of guy. And I don't say that because he has the same numbers as Peja and Peja was that type of guy.
I say that for several reasons, the most compelling of all being that his teammate feels the same way.
I'm not saying that Kevin needs to be a ball hog or an over-aggressive Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant type. There are only a couple of players that can pull that off, and he's not that good. But you have guys like John Stockton, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, Mike Bibby, even guys like Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, etc., who put their mark on every game they play in. They don't have to dominate the ball or alienate their teammates. They don't have to scream "give me the damn ball" at the top of their lungs. They don't even have to score. But they impact the game, and even when they are having a bad shooting night, they don't disappear.
Kevin is the type of player that can be completely erased from a game, especially if he's not scoring. Peja was the same way. Some players develop an edge after a few seasons in the League, but most of the really good ones have it in them already. It can't be taught or practiced. It's not a skill; it's a quality.
And it's not meant to be a knock against Kevin. It's just that I disagree with the assertion that he's a "franchise-level" player, and that's the main reason why, not to mention the fact that he's still a one-dimensional contributor at this point. I just don't anticipate Kevin magically developing into a top level dominator. That's not the way it works.
However, I'm not talking about Kevin's ability or talent-level or his upside. I'm talking about his attitude. He is a second-fiddle, "take what may come" type of guy. And I don't say that because he has the same numbers as Peja and Peja was that type of guy.
I say that for several reasons, the most compelling of all being that his teammate feels the same way.
I'm not saying that Kevin needs to be a ball hog or an over-aggressive Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant type. There are only a couple of players that can pull that off, and he's not that good. But you have guys like John Stockton, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, Mike Bibby, even guys like Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili, Ray Allen, etc., who put their mark on every game they play in. They don't have to dominate the ball or alienate their teammates. They don't have to scream "give me the damn ball" at the top of their lungs. They don't even have to score. But they impact the game, and even when they are having a bad shooting night, they don't disappear.
Kevin is the type of player that can be completely erased from a game, especially if he's not scoring. Peja was the same way. Some players develop an edge after a few seasons in the League, but most of the really good ones have it in them already. It can't be taught or practiced. It's not a skill; it's a quality.
And it's not meant to be a knock against Kevin. It's just that I disagree with the assertion that he's a "franchise-level" player, and that's the main reason why, not to mention the fact that he's still a one-dimensional contributor at this point. I just don't anticipate Kevin magically developing into a top level dominator. That's not the way it works.
That's certainly another option, although both are really guards, and Ron is better than either talentwise.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Also has anyone noticed that Salmons will not pass the ball on a break, unless he is absolutely in trouble? I think over teams are going to start keying in on that if he keeps the ball on every 2 on 1 and 3 on 1's.
A few things in Martin's favor that haven't been mentioned (or just briefly touched on):
Martin is one of the best in the league at getting to the line (in fact, only Dwight Howard and Corey Maggette get to the line more frequently per FG).
Martin also has one of the lowest turnover rates for a high-scoring player. These two factors basically make it a wash between Salmons and Martin in terms of offensive efficiency (and Martin is a bit more of a volume scorer). It's pretty much a wash talent-wise if Salmons continues to play this well. Martin is the marginally better offensive player, Salmons has the slight edge in the rest of the game. The one thing that might swing things in Salmons' favor is his ability to guard SF's (which makes the whole discussion a little silly, as we should be talking about trading Artest and keeping Salmons and Martin together - I think that the 7 poor games to start the season were due to factors other than an issue with the Martin/Salmons 2/3 combo).
I also think that Martin's contract is a non-issue. Salmons has a GREAT contract if he keeps this up, but Martin also has an excellent contract, all things considered ($11 mill per for a 20 PER player's prime years, and we aren't on the hook for any post-32 seasons where players invariably decline). Getting rid of Martin's contract would help the Kings' salary cap situation very little (unless someone took on KT AND SAR as part of the trade) as the $31 mil per year for Miller/Moore/KT/SAR eats up any possible flexibility anyway.
It seems like the solution is clearly to trade Artest and Bibby ASAP and plug in Salmons and Beno. It'll give the team a chance to see over an extended period of time how well Salmons and Martin can play together (if there proves to be a problem, this discussion can be revisited). Also, the Kings would probably play worse in the short run without Artest and we would have a better chance at getting an athletic big man (or Derrick Rose, who would be too good to pass up despite being a PG - think D-Wade with better PG skills) After the disaster last year, where the failure to tank cost us a shot at Oden/Durant/Horford/Yi/B. Wright or even Noah, the Kings absolutely have to give themselves a shot this year (doubt it will happen, though).
Martin is one of the best in the league at getting to the line (in fact, only Dwight Howard and Corey Maggette get to the line more frequently per FG).
Martin also has one of the lowest turnover rates for a high-scoring player. These two factors basically make it a wash between Salmons and Martin in terms of offensive efficiency (and Martin is a bit more of a volume scorer). It's pretty much a wash talent-wise if Salmons continues to play this well. Martin is the marginally better offensive player, Salmons has the slight edge in the rest of the game. The one thing that might swing things in Salmons' favor is his ability to guard SF's (which makes the whole discussion a little silly, as we should be talking about trading Artest and keeping Salmons and Martin together - I think that the 7 poor games to start the season were due to factors other than an issue with the Martin/Salmons 2/3 combo).
I also think that Martin's contract is a non-issue. Salmons has a GREAT contract if he keeps this up, but Martin also has an excellent contract, all things considered ($11 mill per for a 20 PER player's prime years, and we aren't on the hook for any post-32 seasons where players invariably decline). Getting rid of Martin's contract would help the Kings' salary cap situation very little (unless someone took on KT AND SAR as part of the trade) as the $31 mil per year for Miller/Moore/KT/SAR eats up any possible flexibility anyway.
It seems like the solution is clearly to trade Artest and Bibby ASAP and plug in Salmons and Beno. It'll give the team a chance to see over an extended period of time how well Salmons and Martin can play together (if there proves to be a problem, this discussion can be revisited). Also, the Kings would probably play worse in the short run without Artest and we would have a better chance at getting an athletic big man (or Derrick Rose, who would be too good to pass up despite being a PG - think D-Wade with better PG skills) After the disaster last year, where the failure to tank cost us a shot at Oden/Durant/Horford/Yi/B. Wright or even Noah, the Kings absolutely have to give themselves a shot this year (doubt it will happen, though).
That's certainly another option, although both are really guards, and Ron is better than either talentwise.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Another difference is that Salmons has now proven that he can be a 20-pt scorer with an effective all-around game, so the Kings know they can go to him more and not just rely on Kevin. At the beginning of the season, Salmons simply hasn't proven himself enough to warrant being a focal point on offense--and by warrant, of course, I mean it in a social sense--it's not that we should doubt whether he's good enough without him first proving himself on the court, it's just that in the NBA, players low on the NBA hierarchy usually do not get a chance, right away, to carry the load on offense.
I really think that Salmons and Kevin Martin can co-exist in the starting lineup, provided that they give Salmons a fair chance.
I tend to agree with most of your analyisis. Not every good player can become the franchise player, and thats alright. To have enough good complimentry players on a team is what makes a championship happen. Peja was a good player and an unselfish player. Some fans wanted him to be more than he was, and if he couldn't be, then he wasn't worth having. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Martin.
To compare the two isn't fair. Its like apple's and oranges. One was a 6' 10", 240 lb guy and the other is a 6' 7", maybe 200 lb guy. For someone to say the one is quicker than the other is like, well, I think you get my point.
To compare the two isn't fair. Its like apple's and oranges. One was a 6' 10", 240 lb guy and the other is a 6' 7", maybe 200 lb guy. For someone to say the one is quicker than the other is like, well, I think you get my point.
I agree that Kevin is a second-fiddle kind of player, as was Peja. With Peja we were fortunate enough to have the first fiddle... Kevin has been forced into that role by necessity.
But I think Kevin is a really ideal second-fiddle player. He's young, still improving, and if we get the first fiddle in the form of a great big man, we can almost instantly regain contender status.
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But I think Kevin is a really ideal second-fiddle player. He's young, still improving, and if we get the first fiddle in the form of a great big man, we can almost instantly regain contender status.
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That's certainly another option, although both are really guards, and Ron is better than either talentwise.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
Thing is I recall that beginning to the season...and we sucked.
That's an excellent analysis. I would also put under #3 that because of his quickness Martin can get a shot off pretty much whenever he wants; he can create his own shot. Peja couldn't; he was dependent on others to get those shots, and I remember he even stated that to the media.
The one big thing that I'm looking from Martin is to make more big shots in crunch time. When he starts to do more of that, and when he plays D more consistently, then he goes to the next level.
The one big thing that I'm looking from Martin is to make more big shots in crunch time. When he starts to do more of that, and when he plays D more consistently, then he goes to the next level.
Yeah, I'm not too worried about losing Beno after this season. Hardly anyone is going to have significant cap space next offseason without some big moves before the deadline, and I don't think a rebuilding team is going to be too anxious about throwing millions at a player like Beno.
I think we have the best shot at signing him. If we make a move or two and Bibby and Artest aren't here, then it becomes pretty clear that we plan to either re-sign Beno or draft a pg (God no!), or both.
I think we have the best shot at signing him. If we make a move or two and Bibby and Artest aren't here, then it becomes pretty clear that we plan to either re-sign Beno or draft a pg (God no!), or both.
Its not about somebody throwing $7-$9 mni at Beno. All it takes is the MLE. The entire reason that we mgiht lose him is because we can NOT outbid the other teams. Anybody who wants him can match our MLE offer, so it comes down to situation. And if a winning team comes knocking, or a team with a startingh spot, Beno is not going to come back to us to carry sumebody else's bags (nor I should note would it be a wise investment on ou part to sump full MLE on a backup PG). So it likely comes down to we want to keep him? We start him. That simple. If we don't somebody else probably will. Too many teams with holes at that positiion.
If I was Geoff I'd want to make sure I understood a couple things.
1. Ron is 6'8" 250. He can and should play 4. We dont need to dismantle our very nice group of talented swingmen. Just start Salmons, Kevin, Udrih at the 3, 2 and 1 respectively. Have Garcia be our energy 6th man swinger and hopefully meld Douby into new-age Bobby Jackson.
2. Udrih is younger, bigger and potentially better than Mike Bibby.
3. You need a good shooting point guard who can make a clutch shot and handle the ball well at the end of a big game to win a championship in this league nowadays. No one on the Kings fits that bill better than Bibby. Leaving out Miami and Minni, no team less fits the bill of contending than the Kings. Though he has probably topped out and is as good as he'll ever be, many teams, especially in the East, need a player exactly like him. Take advantage of this, get the trade while its good, and force the team to swallow KT's contract or something as big.
Just my thoughts, guess I should update my name to tradebibby....oh and this thread's title is absolutely ridiculous.
1. Ron is 6'8" 250. He can and should play 4. We dont need to dismantle our very nice group of talented swingmen. Just start Salmons, Kevin, Udrih at the 3, 2 and 1 respectively. Have Garcia be our energy 6th man swinger and hopefully meld Douby into new-age Bobby Jackson.
2. Udrih is younger, bigger and potentially better than Mike Bibby.
3. You need a good shooting point guard who can make a clutch shot and handle the ball well at the end of a big game to win a championship in this league nowadays. No one on the Kings fits that bill better than Bibby. Leaving out Miami and Minni, no team less fits the bill of contending than the Kings. Though he has probably topped out and is as good as he'll ever be, many teams, especially in the East, need a player exactly like him. Take advantage of this, get the trade while its good, and force the team to swallow KT's contract or something as big.
Just my thoughts, guess I should update my name to tradebibby....oh and this thread's title is absolutely ridiculous.
Frankly I think our team's rebuilding should revolve around Kevin - so no I wouldn't trade him for anyone or anything, under any circumstances. That said, I like John a lot. I'd keep him through the year.
I am not wild about Bibby. Based on his performance of last year, mostly. I'd like to see where he is at this year before I choose. I like Beno but there is something I can't put my finger on that worries me about him. So until we see Bibby play I can't decide.
All though this thread isn't about Brad I do have to say that I think Brad is having a great year and in past years I have wanted nothing more than to trade "his sorry ***"....I have been impressed and hoipe he continues doing well.
I am not wild about Bibby. Based on his performance of last year, mostly. I'd like to see where he is at this year before I choose. I like Beno but there is something I can't put my finger on that worries me about him. So until we see Bibby play I can't decide.
All though this thread isn't about Brad I do have to say that I think Brad is having a great year and in past years I have wanted nothing more than to trade "his sorry ***"....I have been impressed and hoipe he continues doing well.