Taunting Double Standard

[HighFlyingMonkey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arh5bmAsWb0

But... it's KG! He's so intense!

If that was ANYBODY else, that would be a technical foul and possible ejection. **** like this pisses me off.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Hadn't heard about this. I agree, that's just BS. Shut up and just play KG, no need to clap your hands and wag your finger in the guys face. That's just bushleague.

 

[AleksandarN]

It's funny you don't see KG taunt Kobe and James that way. Only picks on the little guys. I can not stand him. He gets away with alot of crap. He even punched one of teammates a couple of years ago because he scored on him IN A SCRIMMAGE GAME.

 

[kennadog]

Can't argue with the talent, but I think KG has always acted like a huge jerk. With him, being an "intense competitor" is just a polite term for being an a--hole and getting away with it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arh5bmAsWb0

But... it's KG! He's so intense!

If that was ANYBODY else, that would be a technical foul and possible ejection. **** like this pisses me off.

Nice use of the Negative Proof fallacy there.

Could I trouble you for a cite of another player acting in this specific manner that was penalized for it? I mean, it's real easy to say that "anybody else acting like that would get T'd up" when nobody else has actually acted like that...

 

[Gargamel]

Nice use of the Negative Proof fallacy there.

Could I trouble you for a cite of another player acting in this specific manner that was penalized for it? I mean, it's real easy to say that "anybody else acting like that would get T'd up" when nobody else has actually acted like that...

Does it have to be the same thing because Mutombo would get T'd for less brazen stuff than that.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Nice use of the Negative Proof fallacy there.

Could I trouble you for a cite of another player acting in this specific manner that was penalized for it? I mean, it's real easy to say that "anybody else acting like that would get T'd up" when nobody else has actually acted like that...

Dikembe Mutombo? Not allowed to wag his finger at anybody except the crowd?

Tim Duncan? Getting ejected for simply laughing on the bench at a ref?

And don't tell me if Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson were getting into somebody's face like that there wouldn't be repricussions.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Dikembe Mutombo? Not allowed to wag his finger at anybody except the crowd?

Tim Duncan? Getting ejected for simply laughing on the bench at a ref?

I'd like to know how you rationalize what they did and what Garnett did as being the same thing. I want to know who did what Garnett did that got busted for it?

And don't tell me if Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson were getting into somebody's face like that there wouldn't be repricussions.

Actually, I'm going to tell you precisely that.

 

[Jerryaki]

i am not able to see the video at work, but from what i've read in articles and various comments on the web, shouldn't KG have been T'ed up? he did taunt calderon didn't he? i thought that stuff was grounds for a technical. from a random board via google:

Trash talking is one thing and im all for that, but waggling your finger in a opposing players face as you run down the court is crossing the line. Not to mention there is a rule that stemmed from Dikembi Mutombo doing the same thing and its no longer legal and is suppose to be called a technical foul each time.

 

[NewArena]

I'd like to know how you rationalize what they did and what Garnett did as being the same thing. I want to know who did what Garnett did that got busted for it?

Actually, I'm going to tell you precisely that.

Well then you either havent paid attention to ron and stephen jacksons carrer, or you just refuse to admit your wrong.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well then you either havent paid attention to ron and stephen jacksons carrer, or you just refuse to admit your wrong.

I demand cite... Unless, of course, you're trying to equate what Garnett did in that Youtube video to anything that Jackson or Artest have actually been T'd/ejected for. In which case, I demand you submit to a CAT scan.

The only other option is that you're intentionally misunderstanding my argument: I never said that those guys don't get "carded" because of their actions, or even just because of their reputations. I'm saying they wouldn't get "carded" for doing what Garnett did. And I further assert that, unless you can prove that they already have, it's irresponsible to assume, without evidence, that they would.

 

[Jerryaki]

i just watched the youtube clip of it (on yahoo sports), and even the commentator says "why isn't that a taunting foul?" i'm assuming then that taunting is grounds for a technical foul, much like how dikembe mutombo can only taunt to the crowd, and not an actual player. i'm going to have to assume that if a player taunts then that player would get a T.

so the question, as i think the other posters are trying to get at then, is why wasn't garnett T'ed up, when anyone else should've been?

ETA: this is from the blogger on yahoo where i watched the clip:

From what I've read, there are basically two ways to look at this heated KG-Calderon exchange:

1) It was disgusting. KG should have been nailed with a taunting tech immediately, maybe even tossed. Sure, he's playing mind games and getting into his opponent's head, but the officials have to draw the line somewhere — he went way over it. Classless move by the Big Ticket.

there's a taunting tech, so i have a hard time believing that no one in the game has been hit with it before. KG should've been hit with it this time, but wasn't.

 

[uolj]

[yt=Tech for taunting]oXdbBQ-3Rxs[/yt]

Also:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=10239

Taunting of opponents is something else that is "never allowed" and any "actions of this nature will continue to be penalized immediately." Examples of taunting could include pointing a finger in an opponents face or "standing over a player on the floor in a confrontational manner."

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

i just watched the youtube clip of it (on yahoo sports), and even the commentator says "why isn't that a taunting foul?" i'm assuming then that taunting is grounds for a technical foul, much like how dikembe mutombo can only taunt to the crowd, and not an actual player. i'm going to have to assume that if a player taunts then that player would get a T.

so the question, as i think the other posters are trying to get at then, is why wasn't garnett T'ed up, when anyone else should've been?

Apparently, the referee didn't feel as though getting up in a guy's face and talking mess while you're defending him constitutes taunting... As far as I'm concerned, you're supposed to get in a guy's face when he's bringing the ball up the court; you should be able to do anything short of punching the guy to try and get the ball out of his hands.

And uolj, the youtube clip that you provided does not refute my case, either. Mean-mugging somebody after you just scored on them, or posing after you just stopped them from scoring, isn't even in the same time zone as getting in somebody's face and talking **** to them while you're actively defending them, at least not as far as I'm concerned. I still want to see where somebody did something like what he did and got whistled for it, not some arbitrary and utterly dissimilar examples of taunting.

 

[uolj]

I wasn't directly addressing your point, Slim, just adding info to the discussion. Your challenge is a little too narrow to address unless you know of a case that is exactly the same, which I don't (and I don't have time to search thoroughly for).

I do not feel that it's irresponsible to assume, without evidence, that others would get T'd up for the same behavior. That doesn't make sense (we can't draw logical conclusions and make educated predictions of the outcome of a hypothetical situation based on similar but not identical real-life situations?). I personally would prefer not to complain about preferential treatment without specific examples, but I don't think it's irresponsible for others to suggest that it might be the case when those examples don't exist to prove the notion one way or the other.

I do think that behavior should have counted as taunting, and probably would have been called a technical if done by some (but not all) other players in the NBA or if done in front of some (but not all) other referees in the NBA. I don't think it's that big of a deal, though.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

I'd like to know how you rationalize what they did and what Garnett did as being the same thing. I want to know who did what Garnett did that got busted for it?

Fine, I'm going to spell it out just for you since that's what you're asking for.

In the youtube video in the OP, at the 0:08 mark to the 0:10 mark, Kevin Garnett clearly is wagging his finger at Jose Calderon as Calderon dribbles up the court.

On January 12, 2007, Dikembe Mutombo was assessed a technical foul for finger wagging. The technical foul was rescinded because, according to NBA Spokesman Tim Frank, the technical foul is assessed when someone wags their finger at another player.

"The rule is consistent with the past," Frank said. "If a player directs a gesture like that to the crowd, and not to an opposing player, that should not be a technical foul."

Source: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/4468251.html

This is the rule that has been enforced in the past. Richard Jefferson was assesed a technical for finger wagging at Mutombo on March 10th. Mutumbo has been called for it numerous times, one example being here.

There is your specific example. You can continue your semantic argument over the anatomy of what KG exactly was doing if you choose, but I think the point is sufficiently made.

The bigger, more important issue is the whole taunting situation. Why is Tim Duncan ejected for laughing on the bench for supposedly taunting, but KG can yell, scream, and pound his chest all over the court? Why is it that Tyrus Thomas gets a warning for taunting for something similar to what KG does?

KG is frequently given a free pass from the taunting rule because of his "reputation" for intensity.

 

[bloom]

Honestly, I’ve lost a lot if not all my respect for Kevin G. ever since he got traded to the Celtics…and then he does something that just puzzles me. This is something I don’t even expect that from a rookie let alone a vet. Why doesn’t he just play the game? I’m glad Jose just smacked him back with a nice play.

 

[Gary]

GEEZ slim...

Sticking your finger in someones face like that and making those gestures while they are dribbling up the floor is taunting, and he should have got a technical. That's just bush league, and people get techs for far less than that.

Whether you believe what he did was just amateur is on you, but for the rest of us that's called taunting.

 

[JayBird]

Well then you either havent paid attention to ron and stephen jacksons carrer, or you just refuse to admit your wrong.

Bingo.

 

[gunks]

Fine, I'm going to spell it out just for you since that's what you're asking for.

In the youtube video in the OP, at the 0:08 mark to the 0:10 mark, Kevin Garnett clearly is wagging his finger at Jose Calderon as Calderon dribbles up the court.

On January 12, 2007, Dikembe Mutombo was assessed a technical foul for finger wagging. The technical foul was rescinded because, according to NBA Spokesman Tim Frank, the technical foul is assessed when someone wags their finger at another player.



Source: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/4468251.html

This is the rule that has been enforced in the past. Richard Jefferson was assesed a technical for finger wagging at Mutombo on March 10th. Mutumbo has been called for it numerous times, one example being here.

There is your specific example. You can continue your semantic argument over the anatomy of what KG exactly was doing if you choose, but I think the point is sufficiently made.

The bigger, more important issue is the whole taunting situation. Why is Tim Duncan ejected for laughing on the bench for supposedly taunting, but KG can yell, scream, and pound his chest all over the court? Why is it that Tyrus Thomas gets a warning for taunting for something similar to what KG does?

KG is frequently given a free pass from the taunting rule because of his "reputation" for intensity.

Highflyingmonkey wins. Haha.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You know perfectly well why Duncan got T'd up for "laughing." Because Joe Crawford has a screw loose. Crawford is the only referee in the entire league that would have made that call.

In fact, you can boil nearly all occasions of why some players get whistled down to because the ref making the call has an ax to grind. And, in all the rest of the cases, the ref had it coming.

Getting in a player's face while you're defending them isn't taunting any more than putting a hand in a shooter's face is; you're trying to obstruct their vision and distract them so that they are not focused on what they are trying to do. Taunting occurs in a deadball situation, not during play.

And NewArena/JayBird, you're still wrong: Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson haven't been whistled for taunting before, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

And screaming and pounding your chest isn't taunting any more than Bibby's "crab walk" is.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

You know perfectly well why Duncan got T'd up for "laughing." Because Joe Crawford has a screw loose. Crawford is the only referee in the entire league that would have made that call.

In fact, you can boil nearly all occasions of why some players get whistled down to because the ref making the call has an ax to grind. And, in all the rest of the cases, the ref had it coming.

Proves my point. Refs have so much discretion over what constitutes taunting that teh call often falls on said Ref's own opinion, or the reputation of a player, which often leads to a double-standard when dealing with a call.

Getting in a player's face while you're defending them isn't taunting any more than putting a hand in a shooter's face is; you're trying to obstruct their vision and distract them so that they are not focused on what they are trying to do.

So KG clapping his hands in Calderon's face and wagging his finger directly at Calderon is considered defense?

Taunting occurs in a deadball situation, not during play.

Citation please?

And NewArena/JayBird, you're still wrong: Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson haven't been whistled for taunting before, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.[/QUOTE]

See Ad Ignorantiam fallacy.

And screaming and pounding your chest isn't taunting any more than Bibby's "crab walk" is.

Sure, but apparently landing in the way Tyrus Thomas did, or wagging your finger like Mutumbo or Jefferson, or laughing on the bench get's you a technical foul, warning, or ejection.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Proves my point. Refs have so much discretion over what constitutes taunting that teh call often falls on said Ref's own opinion, or the reputation of a player, which often leads to a double-standard when dealing with a call.

The only thing that this proves is that there exists a bias on the part of one referee. It most certainly does not prove anything resembling a double-standard on a league-wide level. Your claim appears to take the position that there is, and there isn't.

So KG clapping his hands in Calderon's face and wagging his finger directly at Calderon is considered defense?

Whatever can stop the other team from scoring that doesn't involve physical harm is good defense, unless the referee/commissioner says otherwise. Like I said, it isn't any less defense than sticking a hand in a shooter's face.

Citation please?

Okay, you got me: the NBA Rules don't actually define tauting, it just says that taunting is punishable by technical foul... But, see, the thing about that is that it doesn't establish that clapping your hands in an opponent's face or wagging your finger is taunting, either. It's pretty much a ref's call.

Mutombo never waved a finger in someone's face while he was guarding them, only after he blocked a shot. That's as much delaying the game as taunting, probably more so. Jefferson didn't get whistled until after the play was over. When all the examples of players being disciplined for taunting show them being disciplined for taunting in a dead ball situation, there is no good reason for me to believe that the NBA considers getting in a player's face while play is going on to actually be taunting in the first place.

See Ad Ignorantiam fallacy.

This really depends on what side of the fence your standing on: your allegation, and theirs, appears to be that I'm using ad ignorantiam fallacy because I am asserting that it hasn't been proven to be true, therefore it is false. From my point of view, you are all using ad ignorantiam fallacy because you are asserting that something is true because it hasn't been proven to be false.

Those guys haven't been whistled for taunting, they've been whistled for other stuff. You can't use that as evidence that they would have been whistled for taunting.

Sure, but apparently landing in the way Tyrus Thomas did, or wagging your finger like Mutumbo or Jefferson, or laughing on the bench get's you a technical foul, warning, or ejection.

No, apparently delaying the game gets you a technical foul. It's only a double standard if somebody else does it and gets whistled for it. The Duncan situation is beneath comment because it should blatantly obvious that no referee other than Crawford would make that call, and even he would only call it against Duncan, because of a personal beef.

 

[Entity]

Honestly, I’ve lost a lot if not all my respect for Kevin G. ever since he got traded to the Celtics…and then he does something that just puzzles me. This is something I don’t even expect that from a rookie let alone a vet. Why doesn’t he just play the game? I’m glad Jose just smacked him back with a nice play.

Heh I lost mine in his interview after they won the championship last year.

 

[Merdiesel]

It's the same sh*t they used to to do Webber when he would dunk...
They would T him up for hanging on the rim all the time, but when Shaq's fat *** would do a damn chin up night in and night out when dunking, its ok.

 

[skillet]

this is a winnable game....

 

[skillet]

i like spencer heart, mikki needs to take note from spencer

 

[dukeswh]

[yt=Mutombo T-Foul]stjzC8pG15A[/yt]


[yt=KG]Arh5bmAsWb0[/yt]

I believe KG should've gotten a technical foul for this too. When he was taunting Calderon he wasn't guarding Calderon, you can see him move away after getting to the halflcourt and he was running side by side with Calderon when he was wagging his finger in Calderon's face.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Just my little homer spin on it .. i hated KG and thought he was kind of an Ahole before he came to boston ..

Thats him, I listed to boston sports talk radio alot .. they talked to Doc Rivers today and Doc said that KG didnt really even realize the extent of what he was doing, they then asked doc what KG and Jose were saying, Doc said he couldnt hear KG but he's sure he couldnt repeat it on the radio ( lots of swears ) but after calderon made that play calderon said "i'll be here all night .." after the timeout KG was on the bench talking about how much he liked calderon saying things like " i like that guy .." cause he didnt back down from the sh!t KG was giving him ..

all in all, KG is the man here in boston, and if he played in sacramento hed be the man here too .. if anyone disagrees with that there wrong ...

should it have been a T? probly... but its no worse than the refs making superstars untouchable ..

 

[AleksandarN]

..

all in all, KG is the man here in boston, and if he played in sacramento hed be the man here too .. if anyone disagrees with that there wrong ...

..

says who?