Tankathon in effect? Joerger says 2 vets will rest each game (split)

[Iced Espresso]

Does anyone really think we are not capable of another long losing streak? We will be ok as far as lins.

Orlando & Atlanta are shopping their vets as hard as we are.

If we finished 3d worse, it's actually conceivable we end up picking at 5, doubt we'd drop down to 6 although it's technically possible.

Could be a big let down.

Would feel a whole lot better getting a top 4 pick finishing worst or second worst.

 

[Warhawk]

Orlando & Atlanta are shopping their vets as hard as we are.

If we finished 3d worse, it's actually conceivable we end up picking at 5, doubt we'd drop down to 6 although it's technically possible.

Could be a big let down.

Would feel a whole lot better getting a top 4 pick finishing worst or second worst.

Or, like last year, maybe finishing a few spots out of first will jump us up to a better spot, maybe even #1. I refuse to let my enjoyment watching a win interfere with the hypothetical of where the draft pick will be. I always want a win - if for no other reason than my wanting a win (and enjoying them when they happen) has exactly 0.00% impact on whether they actually win or not. So I choose to enjoy it.

 

[Suicide King]

Or, like last year, maybe finishing a few spots out of first will jump us up to a better spot, maybe even #1. I refuse to let my enjoyment watching a win interfere with the hypothetical of where the draft pick will be. I always want a win - if for no other reason than my wanting a win (and enjoying them when they happen) has exactly 0.00% impact on whether they actually win or not. So I choose to enjoy it.

I also did not want our current young core to break the franchise record of 13 straight losses. They are human after all.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Or, like last year, maybe finishing a few spots out of first will jump us up to a better spot, maybe even #1. I refuse to let my enjoyment watching a win interfere with the hypothetical of where the draft pick will be. I always want a win - if for no other reason than my wanting a win (and enjoying them when they happen) has exactly 0.00% impact on whether they actually win or not. So I choose to enjoy it.

Maybe Temple can win you a game then enjoy.

 

[VF21]

Maybe Temple can win you a game then enjoy.

I enjoyed watching Garrett Temple out there. He's been the ultimate team player and it was fun watching him AND watching the young Kings watch and root for him. That game did more to bond our young players than can possibly be explained, even if Temple set the pace.

 

[eMBarkat10n]

I don't quite understand some of this fan base's love fest with tanking...When has tanking EVER worked wonders for a team in the past? (And, no, Philadelphia does not count, because those results are still considered "a work in progress", IMHO. Let's see if they actually get back to the finals, and then you and I can talk). Right now, this team will be waaaaaaaaaaay better off by putting forth 100% effort every game they play. Sure, some nights, they will decide to go on "Vacay", but if I continue to see the glimpses of greatness that we have been seeing (both as a team, and on an individual level with certain players), I'd much rather see this team compete to win as opposed to see them throw in the towel and settle with the "L".

 

[VF21]

I don't quite understand some of this fan base's love fest with tanking...When has tanking EVER worked wonders for a team in the past? (And, no, Philadelphia does not count, because those results are still considered "a work in progress", IMHO. Let's see if they actually get back to the finals, and then you and I can talk). Right now, this team will be waaaaaaaaaaay better off by putting forth 100% effort every game they play. Sure, some nights, they will decide to go on "Vacay", but if I continue to see the glimpses of greatness that we have been seeing (both as a team, and on an individual level with certain players), I'd much rather see this team compete to win as opposed to see them throw in the towel and settle with the "L".

There's tanking and there's learning. I prefer to look upon the rest of this season as a time for the young Kings to gain knowledge and experience, taking small steps before large leaps. Joerger isn't going to totally bench the vets, but he is putting more responsibility on the shoulders of the kids.

This discussion has been going on for years. The crowd that focuses primarily on the elusive top draft pick always wants to tank. I seriously doubt if they'll ever be happy.

You'll get used to it. Hopefully it will all end next season since we currently don't even have a first round draft pick in 2019 so there will be no reason for us to tank.

 

[Suicide King]

There's tanking and there's learning. I prefer to look upon the rest of this season as a time for the young Kings to gain knowledge and experience, taking small steps before large leaps. Joerger isn't going to totally bench the vets, but he is putting more responsibility on the shoulders of the kids.

This discussion has been going on for years. The crowd that focuses primarily on the elusive top draft pick always wants to tank. I seriously doubt if they'll ever be happy.

You'll get used to it. Hopefully it will all end next season since we currently don't even have a first round draft pick in 2019 so there will be no reason for us to tank.

Unless we win the title next season I expect to hear about the pick we don't have after every loss. Is what it is.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I don't quite understand some of this fan base's love fest with tanking...When has tanking EVER worked wonders for a team in the past? (And, no, Philadelphia does not count, because those results are still considered "a work in progress", IMHO. Let's see if they actually get back to the finals, and then you and I can talk). Right now, this team will be waaaaaaaaaaay better off by putting forth 100% effort every game they play. Sure, some nights, they will decide to go on "Vacay", but if I continue to see the glimpses of greatness that we have been seeing (both as a team, and on an individual level with certain players), I'd much rather see this team compete to win as opposed to see them throw in the towel and settle with the "L".

Talent wins, we have little talent.

Temple winning a game does not add any talent whatsoever next year.

Math may.

More ping pong balls = better odds.

Fans feeling good about a game no one will remember next year that may minimize talent acquisition later = illogical.

 

[eMBarkat10n]

Talent wins, we have little talent.

Temple winning a game does not add any talent whatsoever next year.

Math may.

More ping pong balls = better odds.

Fans feeling good about a game no one will remember next year that may minimize talent acquisition later = illogical.

Losing games in order to position yourself to potentially receive a top 3 pick doesn't necessarily add any talent whatsoever next year either. Because there are so many variables that go along with a top 3 pick. Kwame Brown comes to mind (who was a number 1 pick, I might add). Greg Oden comes to mind (who also was a number 1 pick).

Since 1990, only 4 teams have gone into the lottery with the best odds of landing the number 1 pick while managing to walk out of it with the number 1 pick. Therefore, your "logic" = illogical...

 

[Iced Espresso]

Losing games in order to position yourself to potentially receive a top 3 pick doesn't necessarily add any talent whatsoever next year either. Because there are so many variables that go along with a top 3 pick. Kwame Brown comes to mind (who was a number 1 pick, I might add). Greg Oden comes to mind (who also was a number 1 pick).

Since 1990, only 4 teams have gone into the lottery with the best odds of landing the number 1 pick while managing to walk out of it with the number 1 pick. Therefore, your "logic" = illogical...

Pick order after top 3 slots goes by record, so any meaningless win depreciates where you can draft from.

The best player in this draft will be available at draft slot 1, that's a 100%

 

[Tetsujin]

Pick order after top 3 slots goes by record, so any meaningless win depreciates where you can draft from.

The best player in this draft will be available at draft slot 1, that's a 100%

But as has been proven in the past the best player in the draft is quite often not picked there and sometimes its best to pick after the wide open choice has been made (Tell me that Portland wasn't sweating bullets when it had to choose between Oden and KD).

 

[Iced Espresso]

Like it or not, the best chance at grabbing a franchise player is through the draft for us. Better draft spot increases the odds of landing them.

 

[eMBarkat10n]

Like it or not, the best chance at grabbing a franchise player is through the draft for us. Better draft spot increases the odds of landing them.

Clearly, you don't get my point. Or you're just refusing to want to get my point. Moving on...

 

[Mike]

I don't quite understand some of this fan base's love fest with tanking...When has tanking EVER worked wonders for a team in the past? (And, no, Philadelphia does not count, because those results are still considered "a work in progress", IMHO. Let's see if they actually get back to the finals, and then you and I can talk). Right now, this team will be waaaaaaaaaaay better off by putting forth 100% effort every game they play. Sure, some nights, they will decide to go on "Vacay", but if I continue to see the glimpses of greatness that we have been seeing (both as a team, and on an individual level with certain players), I'd much rather see this team compete to win as opposed to see them throw in the towel and settle with the "L".

2018 all star game players
East
Taken top five: Irving (1st), LeBron (1st), Embiid (3rd), Beal (3rd), Horford (3rd), Love (5th), Oladipo (2nd), Porzingis (4th), Wall (1st)
Taken outside the top five but still in the lottery: DeRozan (9th)
Taken outside the lottery: Giannis (15th), Lowry (24th)

West
Taken top five: Harden (3rd), Durant (2nd), Cousins (5th), Davis (1st), Westbrook (4th), KAT (1st), Aldridge (2nd)
Taken outside top five but still in the lottery: Curry (7th), Lillard (6th), Thompson (11th)
Taken outside the lottery: Green (35th), Butler (30th)

As you can see, the majority of the all stars this year were taken in the top five (16) compared to outside the top five (8).

Obviously not all of these players are still on their original team, but for the most part the teams that have the most sustained success tend to be built around players taken at the top end of the draft. Most teams tend to find that first centerpiece through the draft, sometimes more than one, and then build around them. Some teams get lucky to have the assets to acquire further franchise changing players through trades (e.g. Celtics and Irving, Celtics and Garnett, Heat and Shaq, Rockets and Harden etc) and others are big draws to free agents (e.g. Lakers and Shaq, Miami and Lebron/Bosh, Warriors and Durant etc).

There will always be exceptions. The Warriors original trio were all taken outside the top five of the draft and they won a championship together and lost another. But how common are those teams? The main examples I can think of are the Dallas Mavericks since they were built around Dirk Nowitzki (9th overall), but their title winning side did feature two former top five picks supporting him (Kidd and Chandler); Lakers with Kobe Bryant (13th overall), though he was supported by Shaq (1st overall) for his first three titles and Gasol (3rd overall) for his second two titles; and the Celtics were built around Paul Pierce (10th overall), but never made a finals appearance until he got a running partner in Kevin Garnett (1st overall). So even if you do find a star outside the top five to build around, they are typically supported by players taken high in the draft.

What path should we take? Well, I can see what you are saying that we shouldn't lose for the sake of it. The problem with tanking is that losing can become a major issue if you don't get the franchise changing talent and/or learn how to win. So if we believe we already have potential cornerstones to build this team around (e.g. Fox and Willie?), then perhaps we should be making a concerted effort to compete and try to win games so that our young players get into good habits rather than getting stuck in bad habits. I think Fox has all star potential if he works hard and develops. Likewise I think Buddy, Skal and Willie can be part of this team's future. However, despite having some good young talent with upside, I think we could benefit from one of the potential franchising changing talents at the top of this year's draft. Why? Because I don't think we are likely to ever attract players like LeBron or Durant to town, and while we could always get someone in a trade, we would arguably need an established star and/or require the assets to make such a trade. With that in mind our best route back to the play offs and sustained success is to build this team through the draft, and while teams find stars outside the top five and good players outside the top five, generally speaking the majority are found in the top five and if we have to tank this year to get a franchise changing talent then it will be worthwhile. However, we shouldn't let losing and tanking to become a yearly thing.

 

[eMBarkat10n]

2018 all star game players
East
Taken top five: Irving (1st), LeBron (1st), Embiid (3rd), Beal (3rd), Horford (3rd), Love (5th), Oladipo (2nd), Porzingis (4th), Wall (1st)
Taken outside the top five but still in the lottery: DeRozan (9th)
Taken outside the lottery: Giannis (15th), Lowry (24th)

West
Taken top five: Harden (3rd), Durant (2nd), Cousins (5th), Davis (1st), Westbrook (4th), KAT (1st), Aldridge (2nd)
Taken outside top five but still in the lottery: Curry (7th), Lillard (6th), Thompson (11th)
Taken outside the lottery: Green (35th), Butler (30th)

As you can see, the majority of the all stars this year were taken in the top five (16) compared to outside the top five (8).

Obviously not all of these players are still on their original team, but for the most part the teams that have the most sustained success tend to be built around players taken at the top end of the draft. Most teams tend to find that first centerpiece through the draft, sometimes more than one, and then build around them. Some teams get lucky to have the assets to acquire further franchise changing players through trades (e.g. Celtics and Irving, Celtics and Garnett, Heat and Shaq, Rockets and Harden etc) and others are big draws to free agents (e.g. Lakers and Shaq, Miami and Lebron/Bosh, Warriors and Durant etc).

There will always be exceptions. The Warriors original trio were all taken outside the top five of the draft and they won a championship together and lost another. But how common are those teams? The main examples I can think of are the Dallas Mavericks since they were built around Dirk Nowitzki (9th overall), but their title winning side did feature two former top five picks supporting him (Kidd and Chandler); Lakers with Kobe Bryant (13th overall), though he was supported by Shaq (1st overall) for his first three titles and Gasol (3rd overall) for his second two titles; and the Celtics were built around Paul Pierce (10th overall), but never made a finals appearance until he got a running partner in Kevin Garnett (1st overall). So even if you do find a star outside the top five to build around, they are typically supported by players taken high in the draft.

What path should we take? Well, I can see what you are saying that we shouldn't lose for the sake of it. The problem with tanking is that losing can become a major issue if you don't get the franchise changing talent and/or learn how to win. So if we believe we already have potential cornerstones to build this team around (e.g. Fox and Willie?), then perhaps we should be making a concerted effort to compete and try to win games so that our young players get into good habits rather than getting stuck in bad habits. I think Fox has all star potential if he works hard and develops. Likewise I think Buddy, Skal and Willie can be part of this team's future. However, despite having some good young talent with upside, I think we could benefit from one of the potential franchising changing talents at the top of this year's draft. Why? Because I don't think we are likely to ever attract players like LeBron or Durant to town, and while we could always get someone in a trade, we would arguably need an established star and/or require the assets to make such a trade. With that in mind our best route back to the play offs and sustained success is to build this team through the draft, and while teams find stars outside the top five and good players outside the top five, generally speaking the majority are found in the top five and if we have to tank this year to get a franchise changing talent then it will be worthwhile. However, we shouldn't let losing and tanking to become a yearly thing.

Again...you, too, seem to not get my point. Look, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to reason with the other side. Other than the time wasted typing this response at 6:35 AM on my phone, while still in bed...

But, getting the number 1 pick, or a top 3 pick doesn't guarantee diddly squat other than the opportunity to draft who you feel will be the best of the best. What happens after that is all a crap shoot. You never know what will happen. Injuries happen. Freak accidents happen.

Players have proven time and time again that college talent doesn't necessarily translate to NBA talent. Jimmer comes to mind. Mateen Cleaves comes to mind. Now, both were not top picks in their respective draft class, but they were still projected to have blossoming NBA careers.

You gave me examples of lottery picks who are all stars this year. I'm not looking for an all star. I want a superstar.

 

[Mike]

Again...you, too, seem to not get my point. Look, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to reason with the other side. Other than the time wasted typing this response at 6:35 AM on my phone, while still in bed...

But, getting the number 1 pick, or a top 3 pick doesn't guarantee diddly squat other than the opportunity to draft who you feel will be the best of the best. What happens after that is all a crap shoot. You never know what will happen. Injuries happen. Freak accidents happen.

Players have proven time and time again that college talent doesn't necessarily translate to NBA talent. Jimmer comes to mind. Mateen Cleaves comes to mind. Now, both were not top picks in their respective draft class, but they were still projected to have blossoming NBA careers.

You gave me examples of lottery picks who are all stars this year. I'm not looking for an all star. I want a superstar.

And for the most part the superstars are taken in the top five. Ok Curry was taken outside the top five and Giannis in the middle of the round. But I would say the odds of getting a superstar are greater if we have a top five pick than not.

Of course there are risks with any player. An injury can derail a career. They might never reach their potential for a variety of reasons. But at the end of the day we need to continue to build through the draft since our chances of building a contender through other avenues is fairly limited.

Like I said, i want our young core to play hard for the rest of this season and compete. We won't win many but we should compete. That is what will help them develop, but at the same time tanking to ensure we get that top five pick is important to get another piece of the puzzle. Ideally I'd love to see us build this team while remaining competitive, kinda like the Pacers, but end of the day it doesn't matter how this team rebuilds just as long as they do it successfully this time round.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

The obsession with draft picks reminds me so much of the UK message boards after the “One-and-Done” era started. There is a faction of fans there that only live for next year’s recruiting class. Oh, they might get excited for a little while about the current team, but as soon as it does not live up to their grandiose expectations, that team is trash, and they move on to constant fantasizing about next year’s recruiting and how they will be “the greatest ever, just you wait and see”.

It’s kind of the same here, all this talk about tanking and getting a high pick. They are obsessed with getting that “top 3” pick where it is pretty much guaranteed that the Kings can draft that mythical franchise player who will take them to the promised land. The heck with the current team and players, just you wait until next year’s draft. Heck, if you can get a top 15-pick, trade a promising player whose development shows improvement for the unknown of a top 15 pick, “but it’s a high draft pick!!!!!”

It’s like a gambler’s addiction, always looking to the next hand you’re dealt, that next roll of the dice.

Here’s my take on wins and losses, the Kings are a very young, inexperienced team which means that right now, they are a very bad team. They are going to lose a lot of games. Losing is hard on a team’s psyche, but it is part of the process they must go through. But the occasional win gives them hope and a little bit of confidence.

As far as this season goes, I am going to enjoy that occasional win. I am not going to get upset over the losses, they are expected. I understand the importance of a high draft pick, but I also understand there are no guarantees associated with a high draft pick, it’s a crap shoot. Anyway, the losses will take care of themselves.

I want to see our core of young guys play hard, compete, and improve. If at times they need a veteran on the floor with them to settle them down, I’m ok with that. If any of those circumstances lead to a win, I am not going to complain about it.

Really, are some of you advocating that they “throw games”? If they are in a position to win a game and a guy, veteran or not, has a hot hand, are you advocating pulling him so at to guarantee a loss? Where are the ethics and morals in that?

 

[Suicide King]

I count myself among the group that is happy with a loss for the draft implications, but not going to bemoan any win. I don't hate the tanking teams, I hate "the game" that is the current draft system and the fact tanking is usually the best course of action. Until another system comes along not much to say.

However I have yet to hear one single person unhappy with the win @ Orlando explain how they would have handled pulling Temple out of the game en route to his career high to potentially have the best odds in the draft. I probably wouldn't believe them anyway since it is easy to say on the internet as opposed to being the coach. Not to mention Willie had a great game and we would not have won without him. Then again, most of the same resident hand wringers also seem to have a dislike for Willie so probably don't count his performance as one from our future core. These same posters just knew we were going to end the season with the 10th pick on the back of veterans. We are currently tied for worst record.

 

[John Galt]

some of you all just seem to have a lust to argue.

For sure, indisputably, having a top 5 pick is a LOT better than having a 6-10 pick and Mike's post is solid evidence of that. And it is intuitive and indisputable.

But that doesn't negate the fact that having a top 5 pick is no guarantee of success, and it is easy to make a HUGE list of top 5 picks that are busts. So eM is right too.

To say that top 5 lotto picks aren't super-valuable because "anything can happen and they often bust" isn't sensible.

To automatically throw a very nice proven young player into a trade pot for a possible top 5 lotto pick also isn't sensible imo, because I don't think you can go "all or nothing" all the time until you find a Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant.

The buddha path is the middle path. Keep your Bogies when you find them. Keep your Willies when you find them. And keep trying to find that superstar to put those guys over the top.

 

[dude12]

some of you all just seem to have a lust to argue.

For sure, indisputably, having a top 5 pick is a LOT better than having a 6-10 pick and Mike's post is solid evidence of that. And it is intuitive and indisputable.

But that doesn't negate the fact that having a top 5 pick is no guarantee of success, and it is easy to make a HUGE list of top 5 picks that are busts. So eM is right too.

To say that top 5 lotto picks aren't super-valuable because "anything can happen and they often bust" isn't sensible.

To automatically throw a very nice proven young player into a trade pot for a possible top 5 lotto pick also isn't sensible imo, because I don't think you can go "all or nothing" all the time until you find a Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant.

The buddha path is the middle path. Keep your Bogies when you find them. Keep your Willies when you find them. And keep trying to find that superstar to put those guys over the top.

I mentioned in another thread, it's more feasible to build a current Celtics or the last successful Hawks type team than it is to look for that franchise piece like KG, Lebron, etc, etc. Do the Celtics actually have a "franchise" piece? They have a lot of good players and then pieces that work well together. I think that is what we are looking for.

 

[John Galt]

I've been on WCS's ass a lot over the past couple years and into this year... have questioned his drive and stamina. But, Bogie>>WCS lobs are the most exciting part of Kings basketball right now. Do they HAVE to contemplate breaking that up?? I hope not ... not for a spin at the lotto wheel anyway.

Anything else can be on the table but I'd stick with those two and Fox as core pieces if I were Vlade. Those are all his guys, Vlade Brand, who are working out well. Why abandon either of them for magic beans?

 

[Iced Espresso]

Clearly, you don't get my point. Or you're just refusing to want to get my point. Moving on...

Math is a fact jack.

 

[Iced Espresso]

2018 all star game players
East
Taken top five: Irving (1st), LeBron (1st), Embiid (3rd), Beal (3rd), Horford (3rd), Love (5th), Oladipo (2nd), Porzingis (4th), Wall (1st)
Taken outside the top five but still in the lottery: DeRozan (9th)
Taken outside the lottery: Giannis (15th), Lowry (24th)

West
Taken top five: Harden (3rd), Durant (2nd), Cousins (5th), Davis (1st), Westbrook (4th), KAT (1st), Aldridge (2nd)
Taken outside top five but still in the lottery: Curry (7th), Lillard (6th), Thompson (11th)
Taken outside the lottery: Green (35th), Butler (30th)

As you can see, the majority of the all stars this year were taken in the top five (16) compared to outside the top five (8).

Obviously not all of these players are still on their original team, but for the most part the teams that have the most sustained success tend to be built around players taken at the top end of the draft. Most teams tend to find that first centerpiece through the draft, sometimes more than one, and then build around them. Some teams get lucky to have the assets to acquire further franchise changing players through trades (e.g. Celtics and Irving, Celtics and Garnett, Heat and Shaq, Rockets and Harden etc) and others are big draws to free agents (e.g. Lakers and Shaq, Miami and Lebron/Bosh, Warriors and Durant etc).

There will always be exceptions. The Warriors original trio were all taken outside the top five of the draft and they won a championship together and lost another. But how common are those teams? The main examples I can think of are the Dallas Mavericks since they were built around Dirk Nowitzki (9th overall), but their title winning side did feature two former top five picks supporting him (Kidd and Chandler); Lakers with Kobe Bryant (13th overall), though he was supported by Shaq (1st overall) for his first three titles and Gasol (3rd overall) for his second two titles; and the Celtics were built around Paul Pierce (10th overall), but never made a finals appearance until he got a running partner in Kevin Garnett (1st overall). So even if you do find a star outside the top five to build around, they are typically supported by players taken high in the draft.

What path should we take? Well, I can see what you are saying that we shouldn't lose for the sake of it. The problem with tanking is that losing can become a major issue if you don't get the franchise changing talent and/or learn how to win. So if we believe we already have potential cornerstones to build this team around (e.g. Fox and Willie?), then perhaps we should be making a concerted effort to compete and try to win games so that our young players get into good habits rather than getting stuck in bad habits. I think Fox has all star potential if he works hard and develops. Likewise I think Buddy, Skal and Willie can be part of this team's future. However, despite having some good young talent with upside, I think we could benefit from one of the potential franchising changing talents at the top of this year's draft. Why? Because I don't think we are likely to ever attract players like LeBron or Durant to town, and while we could always get someone in a trade, we would arguably need an established star and/or require the assets to make such a trade. With that in mind our best route back to the play offs and sustained success is to build this team through the draft, and while teams find stars outside the top five and good players outside the top five, generally speaking the majority are found in the top five and if we have to tank this year to get a franchise changing talent then it will be worthwhile. However, we shouldn't let losing and tanking to become a yearly thing.

Fantastic post.

And I wouldn't be complaining if one of our young fellas like Buddy or someone else got hot and scored 34 points.

 

[Iced Espresso]

The obsession with draft picks reminds me so much of the UK message boards after the “One-and-Done” era started. There is a faction of fans there that only live for next year’s recruiting class. Oh, they might get excited for a little while about the current team, but as soon as it does not live up to their grandiose expectations, that team is trash, and they move on to constant fantasizing about next year’s recruiting and how they will be “the greatest ever, just you wait and see”.

It’s kind of the same here, all this talk about tanking and getting a high pick. They are obsessed with getting that “top 3” pick where it is pretty much guaranteed that the Kings can draft that mythical franchise player who will take them to the promised land. The heck with the current team and players, just you wait until next year’s draft. Heck, if you can get a top 15-pick, trade a promising player whose development shows improvement for the unknown of a top 15 pick, “but it’s a high draft pick!!!!!”

It’s like a gambler’s addiction, always looking to the next hand you’re dealt, that next roll of the dice.

Here’s my take on wins and losses, the Kings are a very young, inexperienced team which means that right now, they are a very bad team. They are going to lose a lot of games. Losing is hard on a team’s psyche, but it is part of the process they must go through. But the occasional win gives them hope and a little bit of confidence.

As far as this season goes, I am going to enjoy that occasional win. I am not going to get upset over the losses, they are expected. I understand the importance of a high draft pick, but I also understand there are no guarantees associated with a high draft pick, it’s a crap shoot. Anyway, the losses will take care of themselves.

I want to see our core of young guys play hard, compete, and improve. If at times they need a veteran on the floor with them to settle them down, I’m ok with that. If any of those circumstances lead to a win, I am not going to complain about it.

Really, are some of you advocating that they “throw games”? If they are in a position to win a game and a guy, veteran or not, has a hot hand, are you advocating pulling him so at to guarantee a loss? Where are the ethics and morals in that?

Advocating putting it in the hands of the youth, if they bring us a win, so be it, at least it was their work & development.

 

[Gguod]

Again...you, too, seem to not get my point. Look, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to reason with the other side. Other than the time wasted typing this response at 6:35 AM on my phone, while still in bed...

But, getting the number 1 pick, or a top 3 pick doesn't guarantee diddly squat other than the opportunity to draft who you feel will be the best of the best. What happens after that is all a crap shoot. You never know what will happen. Injuries happen. Freak accidents happen.

Players have proven time and time again that college talent doesn't necessarily translate to NBA talent. Jimmer comes to mind. Mateen Cleaves comes to mind. Now, both were not top picks in their respective draft class, but they were still projected to have blossoming NBA careers.

You gave me examples of lottery picks who are all stars this year. I'm not looking for an all star. I want a superstar.

Your logic is awfull. There is statistical evidence that having 1st ovr pick is way better situation on average than having a lets say 4th pick. Its also common sence but there also is data to back that up.

If I remember correctly, the odds to get an all star (or all nba player im not 100% sure) drastically decreases outside of top 3. It means that its crucial for a rebuilding team to get as good lottery position as possible.

Your argument is very toxic for a rebuilding team. Horrible rethoric when you say "you could end up drafting Kwame Brown. Of course that can happen. The likelyhood for that is just a lot smaller with 1st pick than 5th pick.

This is exactly the same conversation as last offseason. Lot of guys in here wanted us to go crazy in free agency and go after guys like Millsap, Amir johnson, pj tucker, Gallinari ect and lock our cap with those kind of signings. Every time the argument was "draft position doesnt matter because draft is a crap shoot". And that argument was wrong then and it still is wrong now. It isnt a crap shoot. We live in 2018 and we have data that shows us that on average draft position matters a lot. Its common sence and statistical truth

E: my purpose is not to lash out on you but its just the same conversation all over again

 

[Mike]

The obsession with draft picks reminds me so much of the UK message boards after the “One-and-Done” era started. There is a faction of fans there that only live for next year’s recruiting class. Oh, they might get excited for a little while about the current team, but as soon as it does not live up to their grandiose expectations, that team is trash, and they move on to constant fantasizing about next year’s recruiting and how they will be “the greatest ever, just you wait and see”.

It’s kind of the same here, all this talk about tanking and getting a high pick. They are obsessed with getting that “top 3” pick where it is pretty much guaranteed that the Kings can draft that mythical franchise player who will take them to the promised land. The heck with the current team and players, just you wait until next year’s draft. Heck, if you can get a top 15-pick, trade a promising player whose development shows improvement for the unknown of a top 15 pick, “but it’s a high draft pick!!!!!”

It’s like a gambler’s addiction, always looking to the next hand you’re dealt, that next roll of the dice.

Here’s my take on wins and losses, the Kings are a very young, inexperienced team which means that right now, they are a very bad team. They are going to lose a lot of games. Losing is hard on a team’s psyche, but it is part of the process they must go through. But the occasional win gives them hope and a little bit of confidence.

As far as this season goes, I am going to enjoy that occasional win. I am not going to get upset over the losses, they are expected. I understand the importance of a high draft pick, but I also understand there are no guarantees associated with a high draft pick, it’s a crap shoot. Anyway, the losses will take care of themselves.

I want to see our core of young guys play hard, compete, and improve. If at times they need a veteran on the floor with them to settle them down, I’m ok with that. If any of those circumstances lead to a win, I am not going to complain about it.

Really, are some of you advocating that they “throw games”? If they are in a position to win a game and a guy, veteran or not, has a hot hand, are you advocating pulling him so at to guarantee a loss? Where are the ethics and morals in that?

First thing I would say about ethics and morals in basketball is that I don't think anyone really cares about that. For example should a player like Kevin Durant join the Golden State Warriors when they already had an all star trio, one NBA championship, plus had just broken the Chicago Bulls' regular season record and narrowly lost their finals rematch against the Cavaliers? Look at how they've managed to re-sign players like Iguodala and Livingstone, while adding the likes of Swaggy P, David West and Omri Casspi. Their existing salaries is over $137 million and the league happily allows and aids a team like this to build up a roster despite having a salary cap and them already being over it when they made some of these moves. Now ok all of this is above board but from an ethical and moral standpoint it does make a mockery of the so-called level playing field. Now they aren't the only team, the Cleveland Cavaliers are another example, because they have a similar level of salary and have managed to extend players and bring players in like Wade, Rose, and Green. So in all honesty I would not worry about ethics and morals because a number of other teams don't and the league certainly doesn't seem to care about maintaining an even playing field, in fact they seem quite happy to promote super teams in this era.

Now that doesn't mean we should compromise our ethics and morals because others do. If I was head coach I don't think I could pull a player to guarantee a loss, however I would have the veterans on minute restrictions (so this would mean Temple would never have had 40 minutes in that big game) with a ceiling around the 20 minute mark, because my intention would be to give the young players more minutes to aid their development. Admittedly you don't want to put them in a bad situation on court with the opposition bullying them, but at the same time they need to learn and develop and the best way to do that is on an NBA court competing against other teams.

The second thing to consider here is that I don't think the majority of our fan base have given up on our young players by looking at the draft. What they see is a team with 14 wins and 33 losses with no realistic chance of making the play offs. Now perhaps we can win at least 28 of our remaining 35 games to see us finish with a winning record and sneak into the play offs as the eighth seed. It would be great to see that turnaround unfold and see our young players thrive. However, that type of turnaround is unlikely and that is why I think a lot of our fans are focusing on the draft and wanting this team to finish with as high a pick as possible because this is a lost season. We can make an argument over whether going 25-10 and getting a pick outside the top ten is better for this team's future than going 10-25 and getting a top five pick. Which would I prefer to see? I really don't know. If we win that many games it means our young players have improved and are getting it done, but we potentially miss out on a franchise changing talent; however if we lose that many games we miss out on that develop, while gaining a chance at getting a franchise changing talent. It's tough to know or say which is the best route for this team to follow for the rest of this season, but by no means do I think our fan base has given up on our young players. I think most of us are still excited to see what future the likes of Fox, Bogdanovic, Willie and co have with our team, but would love to see another young piece (potentially a star) added to the mix.

I mentioned in another thread, it's more feasible to build a current Celtics or the last successful Hawks type team than it is to look for that franchise piece like KG, Lebron, etc, etc. Do the Celtics actually have a "franchise" piece? They have a lot of good players and then pieces that work well together. I think that is what we are looking for.

The issue with looking at the current Celtics team is that they got very lucky with that Brooklyn Nets trade. They got the Nets' first round picks in 2014, 2016, and 2018; and to top it off they also gained the right to swap first round picks in 2017. I will never understand why they didn't add lottery protection to the 2016 and 2018 picks, as well as the pick swap, because it was unlikely that Pierce and Garnett would both have been factors beyond what was left on their contracts because they were already on the decline when they acquired them. Had the Nets been smarter and added lottery protection the Celtics would never have drafted Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, nor would they have been able to package the 2018 pick in a deal to acquire Kyrie Irving. So a lot of their success has been down to the Nets ineptitude and panic in that disastrous trade deal.

One team we could actually mirror is the Indiana Pacers. They have a starting line up of Darren Collison, Victor Oladipo, Bojan Bogdanovic, Thaddeus Young, and Myles Turner. The only player they drafted off that five is Myles Turner and he was taken 11th overall. They are playing decent basketball and are looking like a team that will continue to get better if Oladipo develops into a perennial all star and Myles Turner continues to get better, and that's discounting Domantas Sabonis who is a very talented young player. So they have managed to put together a competitive line up and rotation without lots of high draft picks, however are they going to become one of those middling teams that are good enough to make the play offs but don't have the means to get better and become a true contender? Time will.

 

[VF21]

Clearly, you don't get my point. Or you're just refusing to want to get my point. Moving on...

You're late to the party (through no fault of your own) on a discussion that has literally gone on FOR YEARS. It has been hashed, rehashed, re-rehashed, etc. to the point where I think a lot of us could recite verbatim what someone from "the other side" is going to say before they say it.

Neither side is going to change their mind. This is like playing Thermonuclear War.

 

[VF21]

Really, are some of you advocating that they “throw games”? If they are in a position to win a game and a guy, veteran or not, has a hot hand, are you advocating pulling him so at to guarantee a loss? Where are the ethics and morals in that?

Excellent post. I just want to add to something you said in the last paragraph.

Regardless of the ethics or morals, how long do you think players will continue to be satisfied if that happens? You do NOT want to send that message. These guys have worked all their lives to win, to improve, to do their best. You start pulling them when they're doing that and they'll soon be all over their agents demanding trades. You think we have it tough now getting free agents to come here? I guarantee you NOBODY will come here if that's the image put forth.

 

[ParniValjak]

While early picks correlate to a better chance of picking a franchise player simply because you have a larger pool of players to chose from, it doesn’t guarantee that you are going to make the right decision. After all Oden was picked before Durant as was Bowie before Michael Jordan.

There is a LOT of luck involved as well. There is a huge difference between having #1 pick in a year where Mike Miller is clearly the best player in the draft pool and where Tim Duncan is there waiting for you!

Drafting a player is one part of the equation. Development once you draft the player is just as important. It would be nice if Kings land a couple of these franchise types but reality is, it is pretty rare to get an all star level talent straight out of the draft. Last ones to do it were Pelicans with AD in a losing season. KAT missed out last year but got in this year because his team is winning.