Taking stock after the first 3 games

[jcassio]

Taking stock after the first 3 games

Note: There is already a thread called We are the WORST team in the NBA!
so feel free to use that thread if you think it's more in line with your level of disappointment.

For this thread, what I had in mind was an opportunity to share observations of specific players after the first three games (blow-out losses, without question).

Quincy Douby - don't see any potential for a PG here, as he doesn't seem to see his teammates when he has the ball in his hands. And he's too undersized to have a future as a shooting guard.

Orien Greene - don't see any potential for a PG here either. No offensive game. Just doesn't offer anything but some defense.

Kevin Martin - continues to impress with offensive stats, but does become the invisible man for long periods, which is troubling. Hope he develops some leadership skills this year.

Francisco Garcia - yeah he makes mistakes that'll drive you crazy, but he's got so much game that he needs to be on the floor for 35 min/night. We lose too much if he's relegated to the bench 'for his energy' unless he can still get 35 min/game (off the bench) - which almost never happens with bench players.

John Salmons - ditto Garcia (about PT).

Shareef Abdur-Rahim - Give him a month of rehab to see if he can get his legs, then give him one last try. Without his legs, he offers nothing of value and gets in the way of some young guy's development.

Kenny Thomas - Continues to regress. Somebody must have put a spell on this guy.

Brad Miller - Oh yeah, the new Brad is lighter, quicker and stronger. But... why can't the new Brad get at least 7 boards/game? At least once in every game, he fails to get back on defense because he's looking at the ref for a foul (that will never come). Same as the ol' Brad! And how many rebounds does he get when there's an opponent within arms reach? About... none. Same as the ol' Brad.

Mikki Moore - Leading candidate for slowest start in the NBA this season. Hmmm... tick, tick, tick...

Daryl Watkins - On a good team, this guy would be getting some garbage time minutes and serving as practice fodder for the real players. On our team we're actually wondering if he should be a starter! That says volumes.

Overall, just not much to be excited about after the first three games. Oh wait, there's Beno! Reggie says that "The word around is that he's a steal for the Kings." Well, I'm not sure about that, Reggie, but here's hoping he can help us!
May we also hope for a completely exonerated and rebound-hungry Justin, and a mad-dog Artest playing like he's playing for a new contract! If our current team were to play against our coaches, my money would be on our coaches. And that is just plain sad and a poor reflection on Geoff.

 

[PurpleHaze]

If our current team were to play against our coaches, my money would be on our coaches.

I can't disagree with hardly a word...

so suit up the coaches/MSE team vs. YOUR Sacramento Kings:

Kenny Natt
The Rifleman
Reggie Theus
Randy Brown
Kara Lawson

 

[SLAB]

I remember when Kenny Thomas came here he had a reliable jumper from the free-throw range, grabbed near ten rebounds a night and was generally an acceptable, albeit not anything special, form of an NBA power forward.

Being such a headcase, wouldn't surprise me if signing SAR to be the starter some years back just put him in an "If they don't trust me, I quit" form af attitude. Hence the downward spiral from what he used to offer.



This team just makes me sad. We suck.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I remember when Kenny Thomas came here he had a reliable jumper from the free-throw range, grabbed near ten rebounds a night and was generally an acceptable, albeit not anything special, form of an NBA power forward.

Being such a headcase, wouldn't surprise me if signing SAR to be the starter some years back just put him in an "If they don't trust me, I quit" form af attitude. Hence the downward spiral from what he used to offer.



This team just makes me sad. We suck.

Agreed, but why would he quit...that would be career suicide...no one would ever want him again...oh wait...Jason Hart found another home...I just wish it was that easy to 'rid' ourselves of K-9. And yes...we do suck...next...

 

[Mike0476]

Quincy Douby - don't see any potential for a PG here, as he doesn't seem to see his teammates when he has the ball in his hands. And he's too undersized to have a future as a shooting guard.

Agreed. The only reasons why he is playing any minutes is because he was our 2006 first round selection and our team is not as talented as it could be. If he was a second round selection and/or our team had more talent, he would have been waived.

Kevin Martin - continues to impress with offensive stats, but does become the invisible man for long periods, which is troubling. Hope he develops some leadership skills this year.

Kevin could make a nice third option for a championship contender. Think of him as Mike Bibby from the 2001-2002 team.

Francisco Garcia - yeah he makes mistakes that'll drive you crazy, but he's got so much game that he needs to be on the floor for 35 min/night. We lose too much if he's relegated to the bench 'for his energy' unless he can still get 35 min/game (off the bench) - which almost never happens with bench players.

That's where trading Ron Artest would come in, but should the Kings trade Artest let's hope for a big legit PF in return.

John Salmons - ditto Garcia.

His trade value has gone up a little.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Kenny Thomas, Brad Miller , Mikki Moore...

For the love of Petrie, please trade these guys.

 

[Londonking]

I guess it isnt easy to trade players who are unwanted by other teams.

Whilst i would like to see more talented players on our roster i think the liklihood is that we will have to make do with what we have (for now).

I expect the performance of our team will be improved with the return of Ron and then Mike. Whether it is improved sufficently to win a meaningful number of games is questionable.

This season and next and probably the one after that, as the team rebuilds is a relatively short period of time in the context of the history of the Kings. We've had good times, we must recognise that peaks will probalby be followed by troughs. Im in for the long haul, as i hope / am sure that many of you are. Of course it is dejecting to witness the losses and importantly the nature of those defeats.

Regardless, I encourage you all to root for this team from the start to the finish and for my part is shout : GO KINGS!!

 

[Bricklayer]

I would actually argue that what Salmon' performances doing is not so much raising his own trade value, as making Ron even more expendable When you get 23+ out of all three of your swingmen in a game, adding another one into the mix isn't going to help much. If there ever was a Ron for Tyrus Thomas etc. trade bign discusssed, just a damn shame it did not work (if it was Ben Gordon a damn shame nobody slapped Geoff alongside the head).

 

[ZZE916]

So far, I have yet to see a noteworthy performance from any player, with the possible exceptions of Maritn and Salmons. It's shame when you can call a respectable performance noteworthy, but welcome to the 2007 - 2008 season. Coach T has a real dilemma on his hands. If he plays the deadwood to showcase their skills, it not only slows the development of the youngsters but also shows why any GM would be in trouble for even considering a trade for any of them. It only showcases the reasons we would love to get rid of them. Good luck, Reggie.

 

[Ryle]

I'm really not understanding why everyone is so surprised that we are 0-3. Prior to the season the only game I remotely thought we might have a chance to win was NO. Are we surprised that we lost to the NBA champions on their home court and probably one of the better teams in the Western Conf. on their home court??

Not to mention we have arguably our two best players not even playing.

Jeez people....do you expect us to be 3-0???

At least wait until we play a few more games before we start throwing everyone under the bus.

 

[chelle]

We are exactly where I thought we would be. While it is painful to watch (and will be for a while) I'm here for the long haul. I just keep thinking that something exciting is going to happen. you never know what possibilities await a team like this. GO KINGS.

 

[ZZE916]

I am NOTsurprised the Kings are 0 and 3. In fact, I veiw this entire season as an 82 game exhibition season. My goals for this season are to find out which of the youngsters can actually compete at this level, and what combinations work best on the floor. This team is not going to make any noise, and will not going to make the playoffs. I don't have a problem with that. I just want to make sure we are able to evaluate the players we do have, and base future personel decisions on that evaluation.

 

[jcassio]

I'm really not understanding why everyone is so surprised that we are 0-3...
At least wait until we play a few more games before we start throwing everyone under the bus.

Of course, I can only speak for myself. But since I did refer to the team as pathetic, let me say that I expected them to return to Sacramento 0 and 3, but I also expected to see a more competitive team. Just look at the individual players: there's probably only 3 players who have - so far - played at the level we would have expected. I have to believe that lots of others feel the same way. We are seriously disappointed. But, no, I don't think many of us thought they would come back from the opening road trip with a winning record. I also haven't thrown anyone under the bus. But I have warmed up the motor and checked the tires...

 

[kingsfan101]

I'm really not understanding why everyone is so surprised that we are 0-3. Prior to the season the only game I remotely thought we might have a chance to win was NO. Are we surprised that we lost to the NBA champions on their home court and probably one of the better teams in the Western Conf. on their home court??

Not to mention we have arguably our two best players not even playing.

Jeez people....do you expect us to be 3-0???

At least wait until we play a few more games before we start throwing everyone under the bus.

Problem is not that we are 0-3. That was the expected scenario anyway. Problem is that our front line is actually worse than even what we feared.

Now, none of us had huge hopes from Kenny, Miki etc. However, I must admit that I had not thought of them to be soooo bad.

 

[JoMama]

Our front line players are the A in awful. None have been able to rebound a lick and when you figure how many shots we've missed - well, there's plenty of rebounding opportunities.
Martin, IMHO, is much better than the third option on a contender. He should get the ball more as he's the only Kings' player who draws a crowd when going to the hoop. A little draw the D and kick it out to the open man might help.
Douby hasn't shown me anything worthy of props. This is a great opportunity for him, too.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm really not understanding why everyone is so surprised that we are 0-3. Prior to the season the only game I remotely thought we might have a chance to win was NO. Are we surprised that we lost to the NBA champions on their home court and probably one of the better teams in the Western Conf. on their home court??

Not to mention we have arguably our two best players not even playing.

Jeez people....do you expect us to be 3-0???

At least wait until we play a few more games before we start throwing everyone under the bus.

This is disingenuous at best.

We aren't 0-3 in wins/losses. We are 0-3 in competitiveness. At no point have we belonged on the floor with any of these teams. We literally look like we're from some other, lesser league, and only teams using the opportuntity to get minutes for their scrubs has kept this from being three 20+ point losses. There are Euroleague teams who could have put up more of a fight. We have been down 25+ in each of the games. We have had one total lead so far this season, and that is when we accidentally went up 2-0 in the opener vs. the Hornets. People aren't worried about the LOSING, its the utter humiliation that is the issue. We simply are not competitive at this point.

 

[Glenn]

This is disingenuous at best.

We aren't 0-3 in wins/losses. We are 0-3 in competitiveness. At no point have we belonged on the floor with any of these teams. We literally look like we're from some other, lesser league, and only teams using the opportuntity to get minutes for their scrubs has kept this from being three 20+ point losses. There are Euroleague teams who could have put up more of a fight. We have been down 25+ in each of the games. We have had one total lead so far this season, and that is when we accidentally went up 2-0 in the opener vs. the Hornets. People aren't worried about the LOSING, its the utter humiliation that is the issue. We simply are not competitive at this point.

As usual you turn a negative and "right on" post into something worse. This is a rudderless team with no point guard except the one sitting in great looking suits on the bench

What exactly is the point of correcting a poster so as to create the gloomiest scenario possible? You are a powerful leader with intellectual brilliance, a huge if not limitless NBA knowledge, and a brilliance in putting together words. People will follow you as in some cases, they dare not. If their post is not negative enough, they are corrected. Nobody dares debate you. They'll lose the debate but that does not mean that their point is not valid.

I chose to see the positives and you aren't going to talk me out of it.

I'd be happy to discuss this in PMs if you wish.

 

[Gary]

My takes..

Martin, Salmons, Garcia......


The bad: These three players are our backbone which is sad because our three best players are all at the same positions (which are the easiest to fill on an NBA roster).. All three players can play SG/SF.

The good: Trade value;
Martin - With his new contract, and his efficiency I can see a team that is close to contending (AHEM PHOENIX) that needs a SG take on his contract. Even Utah would want a guy like Martin. I can name probably 25 teams that could use Martin. A lot of teams would want a guy like Martin who is young, and has many years left on his contract.

Salmons - Another one of those players that has a value contract for what he can offer a team either off the bench or part time starter. He is a decent rebounder, passer, defender, and can score from inside the 3pt arc. Plus he has a few years left on his contract and wont "break the bank". A contending team all could use a guy like Salmons.

Garcia - Might be the toughest of the three to trade since teams don't know much about him. Plus his deal is only one (or is it two?) more year after this, and I am sure he would be looking for an extension soon. I can see the Kings trading either Salmons, or Martin and putting Garcia right into the spot of either one of those two.

Of the three above I probably would put Garcia last on the list of trading. Reason being is that we need rebounding, and of the three I feel Garcia is the best. We can load him at SF/SG and he could get us 6 boards a game if not more. It's a start!

 

[Kingster]

My takes..

Martin, Salmons, Garcia......


The bad: These three players are our backbone which is sad because our three best players are all at the same positions (which are the easiest to fill on an NBA roster).. All three players can play SG/SF.

The good: Trade value;
Martin - With his new contract, and his efficiency I can see a team that is close to contending (AHEM PHOENIX) that needs a SG take on his contract. Even Utah would want a guy like Martin. I can name probably 25 teams that could use Martin. A lot of teams would want a guy like Martin who is young, and has many years left on his contract.

Salmons - Another one of those players that has a value contract for what he can offer a team either off the bench or part time starter. He is a decent rebounder, passer, defender, and can score from inside the 3pt arc. Plus he has a few years left on his contract and wont "break the bank". A contending team all could use a guy like Salmons.

Garcia - Might be the toughest of the three to trade since teams don't know much about him. Plus his deal is only one (or is it two?) more year after this, and I am sure he would be looking for an extension soon. I can see the Kings trading either Salmons, or Martin and putting Garcia right into the spot of either one of those two.

Of the three above I probably would put Garcia last on the list of trading. Reason being is that we need rebounding, and of the three I feel Garcia is the best. We can load him at SF/SG and he could get us 6 boards a game if not more. It's a start!

They are not going to trade Martin or Garcia. Artest is the #1 candidate. Maybe Salmons at #2.

 

[Londonking]

Gophersfan : when i read your post it made me think of Kiplng's 'IF'.

specifically the couple of lines...

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

I think that this season is going to be a testing time for our resolve to remain optimisitic about the future, but as has be said in other posts, I think this season is all about finding out if any of the youngsters can step up and show they deserve a place on the roster in future seasons, once we have some early draft picks to revitalise us.

Whichever teams we find ourselves playing against, all we can ask is the players do their best, even if that 'best' is below the quality we would like / expect to see.

I think there will be some things for us to cheer before the season is over.

GO KINGS

 

[Bricklayer]

Question would be though, why would you trade one of the only three guys who looks like a keep right now?

You can always upgrade -- none of those guys is the best at what he does -- but I would see the early season as proving this:

1) this isn't gong to work. Give it up. Enough dumbness. Not working.

2) we have three players ready to help today in Martin, Cisco and Salmons (the latter two shaky because you can't trust they will keep it up once teams start paying attention).

3) there is no other active player who is obviously a keeper

4) of the frontline vets, Miller is the only one who can play at all, and he is very marginal at this point. Like a blownup version of Brian Cook.

5) what intrigue you have on the frontline is in three young guys, none of whom is a sure thing -- Watkins (marginal player) Hawes (questionable pick wiht bad knees) Williams (major legal issue)


So you take all that, and I would say going forward here are your players of interest:

OG -- Martin
OG/SF Cisco
OG/SF Salmons
C -- Hawes
PF/C Williams
PF/C Watkins

You also have two players who are out right now, Bibby and Ron, who can play. But Mike is older, quite possibly in decline, and a bad fit, and Ron is not only unstable but plays the same positions as the Martin/Cisco/Salmons trifecta. Hence dangle both.


Tradeable assets:

SF -- Artest
PG -- Bibby
C -- Miller
PF -- Reef
PF -- Thomas
PF -- Moore
OG -- Douby
PG -- Greene
PG -- Udrih

Obviously a number of those have little value. Look for young players at PG, C, and PF. Not sure why you go in and breakup the 2/3s we already have though. WIts the only bright point we have.

 

[jcassio]

My takes..
Martin, Salmons, Garcia......
Of the three above I probably would put Garcia last on the list of trading.

I'd be very reluctant to part with any of these three, as they're all young and still haven't reached their primes. We all know that Martin is a rising star and may become a superstar. Salmons and Garcia may both be capable of a triple-double on a regular basis - if given the minutes. I'm hoping that Reggie will continue with his experiment where he has all three of them playing together, and with John & Cisco sharing the main ball-handling duties. That doesn't mean that we don't also need a decent PG. But now imagine Justin, Watkins & Hawes with another year or two of growth & development, sharing the PF & Center spots. It just depends on how much each of these players can progress, but we may have the makings of something exciting here. And that doesn't even consider who we might be able to pick up via free agency or through this & next year's drafts.
So, no, I don't see trading one of those guys. But I do see everyone else as expendable. And I won't give up on the Kings if they end up with one of the five worst records in the NBA this year. Just play hard, and show me that you're getting better!

 

[Kingster]

The Core, Hawes, and Artest

Martin, Garcia, and Salmons. Then Artest after 4 more games. Those are the guys who can play. I'm still giving Douby this year to get the experience he needs to show he can play. Watkins is a work in progress. I'm glad Theus is playing him because he is in fact better than every other big man out there.

Hawes may be the most interesting of all the players we have this year. One of Theus's pluses is that he plays guys who can play, regardless of their experience level or salary (Watkins, for example). That should benefit Hawes quite a bit. Hawes is the only player on this team who has the capacity to score inside. If he shows half of what he did in college, he could get a lot of minutes. Yes, he probably won't rebound that great, but relatively speaking, how could he be worse than Miller or Miki or SAR? Miller is just unfathomable. The "other guy" at power forward I don't talk about by name - he's the untouchable unable indescribable one.

To have any hope whatsoever for the future of this team, Artest has to play very well, stay out of trouble, and Petrie has GOT TO TRADE HIM BY THE JANUARY TRADE DEADLINE! Petrie must get young talent at the 4 or the 1 for Artest, or a high #1 with an ender. SOMETHING.

 

[Londonking]

^^ Brick, im surprised you would go with keeping Salmons over keeping Ron.

Wouldnt Ron give us more on the defensive end, and isnt his contribution and intensity more than just the stats ?

Perhaps he's too selfish...its just that if you asked me who i thought the better player was, then i would have voted Ron....

 

[6th]

^^ Brick, im surprised you would go with keeping Salmons over keeping Ron.

Wouldnt Ron give us more on the defensive end, and isnt his contribution and intensity more than just the stats ?

Perhaps he's too selfish...its just that if you asked me who i thought the better player was, then i would have voted Ron....

No doubt that Ron is the better player. But, he is an expiring contract and, as such, might give us really good trade value, especially if he comes back, keeps his nose clean, and plays well.

 

[Londonking]

Thanks 6th - i hadnt thought about his expiring contract .

So I guess it depends on who we could get for Ron as to whether losing him would be beneficial or not.

i have absolutely no idea who we might get. I will have to take a closer look at the Personnel Moves treads.

 

[VF21]

Is Artest an expiring? I thought he had a player option?????

EDIT: Ron Artest is NOT an expiring contract. He has an ETO at the end of this season.

 

[6th]

Is Artest an expiring? I thought he had a player option?????

EDIT: Ron Artest is NOT an expiring contract. He has an ETO at the end of this season.

My mistake. Many expect him to exercise that option.

 

[fnordius]

I'm not upset with how it's gone so far, because I expected it to go about like it has. We had six or seven useful players, then lost Ron, Mike and Justin, and had Spencer's arrival delayed. So we're playing like it's 3-on-5 and we have no bench. If there have been any surprises for me, it's that Watkins has turned out better than I expected.

Yeah, we're hideous now, but in a couple of weeks we should be back on track for developing youngsters who are fun to watch.

Maybe this stretch is really a good thing for us fans. Later on, as we're headed down the home stretch of a 30-win season, we can look back on the first few games and remember how much worse it can be.

 

[Bricklayer]

^^ Brick, im surprised you would go with keeping Salmons over keeping Ron.

Wouldnt Ron give us more on the defensive end, and isnt his contribution and intensity more than just the stats ?

Perhaps he's too selfish...its just that if you asked me who i thought the better player was, then i would have voted Ron....

Oh I agree Ron is by far the better player, no doubt.

He is also a huge risk, has been a constant distraction over his career, and yet could in fact have significant trade value to a team that's not risk adverse. Salmons has very little. From a trade perspective John's just a nice backup having a hot streak, not somebody who can get you a star quality player back in return for at this point. If you believe that Salmons can sustain, not at this level, but just at a solid level, the way to maximize this roster's value would be to a) trade Ron now for a young PF, PG or C (or pick); b) let Martin/Cisco/Salmons play the 2/3, where they have put up good numbers so far, and enhance their respective values, and then next summer if you want to move Salmons he will have had a full year of maybe putting up respectable numbers to give him value.

 

[mr. moustache]

Kevin could make a nice third option for a championship contender. Think of him as Mike Bibby from the 2001-2002 team.

Nah. Kevin is like Peja. A terrible first option for a crap team, or a good 2nd option to a dominant post player on a great team. Kevin reminds me of Peja all the time.