Sam Hinkie

Would you want Hinkie here?

  • As GM

    Votes: 4 11.8%
  • As assistant GM

    Votes: 3 8.8%
  • No

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • Hell No

    Votes: 18 52.9%
  • Maybe (explain)

    Votes: 4 11.8%

  • Total voters
    34
#1
I know there are a lot of polarizing thoughts on him right now. I read his 13 page letter and I listened to his interview on Lowe's podcast. I don't know if the Morway deal is done or not, but if it is not, Vlade should seriously consider interviewing him.

CD ran a poll and I think it was like 80-20 against bringing him here. I don't think people realize what sort of assets he was able to gather in Phili. Now, I disagree with the overall management of that situation, but that is because Hinke is more behind the scenes and did not take into account the human side of things. He also stepped into a situation with almost no assets so a rebuild was the only possible thing he could do.

I think with Vlade running the ship, Hinke would still get the GM title and they could merge new school and old school thinking with appropriate PR and player/coach relationships. This includes Peja.

Thoughts
 
#3
After skimming his letter and seeing all the name dropping and references he makes, I thought, "Oh, Vivek is going to be all over this."

That said, he'd probably come in and see a team largely bereft of assets and tear everything down. I'm not sure that's what ownership wants going into the new building.
 
#4
After skimming his letter and seeing all the name dropping and references he makes, I thought, "Oh, Vivek is going to be all over this."

That said, he'd probably come in and see a team largely bereft of assets and tear everything down. I'm not sure that's what ownership wants going into the new building.
I think this is a total misconception. Listen to his Lowe interview. He did what the ownership wanted but took it to an extreme level. They could have put a middling team together, but that was not their goal
 
#5
No way. Hinkie perfected one thing: tanking. And boy did he tank!! We don't need to tank we have DMC and that is our franchise player. Hinkie has not proven he can do anything other than tank. He failed to develop any system to develop his talent.

His drafting is questionable as well. He took Noel over Greek Freak. If he knew he was going on a multi-year tank project, why wouldn't you take Giannis in that situation? The upside on Giannis was way higher than Noel. Then he took Embiid, who might end up being a generational talent, but then again the guy hasn't touched a basketball court in 3 years. And he came to the game late which is now further slowing his development. He also took Okafor over Porzingis which is also another questionable move given the talent that Porzingis has displayed.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#6
No. He's a gimmick now. He's drama with his gimmick. He's not needed. We need solid, boring, building work. No more wakcy. No more "innovation" trying to reinvent the wheel with sparkles and tassles. As little turnover as can be managed.
 
#7
No. He's a gimmick now. He's drama with his gimmick. He's not needed. We need solid, boring, building work. No more wakcy. No more "innovation" trying to reinvent the wheel with sparkles and tassles. As little turnover as can be managed.
What gimmick has he used? Where he failed was in building culture. We have Vlade. We have said for a while now a number guys would match with Vlade well. He has been on the better side of many trades. He's also been great at getting value out of late picks and undrafted FA's.


To the above, cherry pick Giannis is terribly biased. He went 15th and that was thought of as stretch at the time. Porizingas is a reasonable one, but its only been one year.
 
#8
No way. Hinkie perfected one thing: tanking. And boy did he tank!! We don't need to tank we have DMC and that is our franchise player. Hinkie has not proven he can do anything other than tank. He failed to develop any system to develop his talent.

His drafting is questionable as well. He took Noel over Greek Freak. If he knew he was going on a multi-year tank project, why wouldn't you take Giannis in that situation? The upside on Giannis was way higher than Noel. Then he took Embiid, who might end up being a generational talent, but then again the guy hasn't touched a basketball court in 3 years. And he came to the game late which is now further slowing his development. He also took Okafor over Porzingis which is also another questionable move given the talent that Porzingis has displayed.
Yeah, I'm not sure that's fair or consistent to criticize him for not swinging for the fences with Giannis but then also to chide him for doing exactly that with Embiid.

I think this is a total misconception. Listen to his Lowe interview. He did what the ownership wanted but took it to an extreme level. They could have put a middling team together, but that was not their goal
Haven't had time, but will be sure to check it out. Seems like it's getting some buzz.
 
#9
Yeah, I'm not sure that's fair or consistent to criticize him for not swinging for the fences with Giannis but then also to chide him for doing exactly that with Embiid.
Sure it is. GA has actually played. Embiid had health problems that were known before the draft.

edit: I think Embiid was the right thing to do. The issue is that with all those years of tanking, we still don't know if he has found his franchise talent.
 
#10
What gimmick has he used? Where he failed was in building culture. We have Vlade. We have said for a while now a number guys would match with Vlade well. He has been on the better side of many trades. He's also been great at getting value out of late picks and undrafted FA's.


To the above, cherry pick Giannis is terribly biased. He went 15th and that was thought of as stretch at the time. Porizingas is a reasonable one, but its only been one year.
In what way was it is biased?
 
#12
NO, and emphatically so. "the process" is a wonderful notion on paper, and it may very well have been successful for the 76ers if, ya know, there weren't actual human beings involved. it's all well and good to stockpile high draft picks and young talent and avoid mid-level veterans like the plague, but it amounts to absolutely nothing if you can't build a strong support system and a competitive culture to develop those young players and condition them to play upward to their ability, rather than downward to a tanking strategy. brett brown is a good head coach, but he's been on an island in philadelphia. he needs organizational support to build his young team into a winner, and he simply wasn't getting it with hinkie in charge...

now, none of this is to say that jerry and bryan colangelo are going to be able to turn the ship around for that franchise, but i honestly don't think the sixers made a mistake in circumventing hinkie's "process." from all accounts, sam hinkie is rather anti-social, with a small inner circle of confidantes, who rankles player agents and alienates the very players he values so highly in the draft with a team-wide culture that openly avoids competing for wins. danny ainge and neil olshey would be examples of gm's in each conference who bet on young talent but also bet on the strength of their team's respective cultures, and it's resulted in success ahead-of-schedule for both the celtics and the blazers. personally, i think there's a healthy middle ground in a team's building process between "win now" and "tank forever," and i don't think it's so terribly elusive...

the sacramento kings are a franchise that has been mired in a toxic losing culture of its own for the past decade, and i'd rather not bring hinkie and his "process" on board to ensure another half-decade or more of that toxic losing culture. i'd especially rather not see the kings hire the kind of gm that first rounders are praying won't pick them. sacramento is a hard enough sell for any player with any amount of talent as it is...
 
#14
I'm in the minority, I'd vote yes. I liked Hinkie's ability to aggressively focus on asset collection to maximize chances of obtaining a star. With the Kings, I see an asset-poor team with little chance of making the playoffs within the next five years. While I'm hopeful that isn't the case, because I've loved this (mostly crappy) team for so long, it's looking more and more like the outcome.

However, one thing I didn't like about Hinkie's strategy is that the Sixers didn't need to be that bad - as a few have mentioned, they could have added cheap talent in order to lift the quality play and add 5-10 more wins, while still tanking. You really saw the badness wear on the players this year, especially Jahlil Okafor, and the last thing you want to do is let your young players learn bad habits, as those are tough to shake (Carmelo Anthony nods).
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#15
Just after the Seattle saga ended and Vivek was officially named owner I started a thread about possible coaching and GM candidates. For GMs Hinkie was at the top of my list and I haven't seen anything from him that has changed my mind.

The Sixers have a great trade chip in Okafor, a great defender in Noel, the rights to a guy widely regarded as one of the best European players, a guy who could still just as easily become an all-star big man as the next Greg Oden in Embiid, he drafted the ROY in the late lottery in Carter-Williams and then got a nice haul for him before people realized he just isn't a starter quality PG.

And of course he's stockpiled a ridiculous number of picks including a pretty decent possibility of having two top 4 picks this year.

The Sixers are a punchline right now but in a year or two when they are in the same place as the T'Wolves as a team with a great collection of young talent and a bright future will Hinkie get the credit he deserves?

Sam Hinkie is bright, shrewd and patient. If he'd been hired instead of D'Alessandro I have no doubt the Kings would be in a much better position going forward.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#16
I wouldn't mind Hinkie as GM in an alternate scenario where Vlade isn't already running the team. I do think he's a lot smarter than he gets credit for. The way talent is distributed in the draft is luck based, there's no way around that. All you can do is maximize your odds and hope you get lucky. And Hinkie did well with the resources he had, he just didn't strike lotto gold. But whoever takes over that Sixers job next is going to get credit for the long-term planning that Hinkie put into place. The thing is, Sam Hinkie made it very clear in his exit letter that he's not interested in being subservient to anyone else -- he wants the final say and he wants the credit. The last thing we need right now though is another ego in our front office and I'm fine with Vlade running the ship for now. We just need an old school coach who'll use the roster appropriately.
 
#18
Just after the Seattle saga ended and Vivek was officially named owner I started a thread about possible coaching and GM candidates. For GMs Hinkie was at the top of my list and I haven't seen anything from him that has changed my mind.

The Sixers have a great trade chip in Okafor, a great defender in Noel, the rights to a guy widely regarded as one of the best European players, a guy who could still just as easily become an all-star big man as the next Greg Oden in Embiid, he drafted the ROY in the late lottery in Carter-Williams and then got a nice haul for him before people realized he just isn't a starter quality PG.

And of course he's stockpiled a ridiculous number of picks including a pretty decent possibility of having two top 4 picks this year.

The Sixers are a punchline right now but in a year or two when they are in the same place as the T'Wolves as a team with a great collection of young talent and a bright future will Hinkie get the credit he deserves?

Sam Hinkie is bright, shrewd and patient. If he'd been hired instead of D'Alessandro I have no doubt the Kings would be in a much better position going forward.
it seems to me that a team that initiates a more traditional rebuild strategy is just as likely to to luck into that "great collection of young talent and a bright future," because a more traditional rebuild doesn't undermine the development of that young talent through the toxicity that an intentionally-constructed losing culture creates...

and as far as i can tell, the sixers' really haven't turned the draft picks they've already acquired into the transformational talent that sam hinkie was seeking when he first began this "process." that is the luck of the draft, after all. i mean, how great of a trade chip is jahlil okafor, really? he's on a rookie-scale contract, which can be difficult to trade for a player of equal talent precisely because of it's value as a low-cost investment. how many players of consequence get traded before their second year even begins? usually a team will grow that talent for two to three seasons before leveraging it into a future trade. the sixers have also mortgaged a lot of their leverage in potential okafor trade talks because of their well-known need to unclutter their frontcourt. beyond that, everybody around the league is constantly talking about the athletic big man of the future who can hit from range and guard multiple positions. okafor is quite excellent on the low block, but he's decidedly out of vogue with contemporary nba trends, and i can't envision a single team trading philly a player of equal value to a top-3 pick...

as for nerlens noel, he's certainly a great defender, but does he even project out to be a better overall player in the future than willie cauley-stein? noel is an attractive piece for the sixers future, but he's hardly what i would call a building block. then there's dario saric, and while he's been exceptional in overseas competition, nobody has any idea what he's going to be as an [eventual] nba player. now, it's entirely possible that joel embiid may very well become a transformative two-way big someday, but he's also a 7-footer who has yet to play a single nba game because of serious back and foot injuries he suffered before the ripe old age of 21, the kind of injuries that are often difficult to recover from and can prematurely kill the careers of big men. names like bill walton and yao ming come to mind. he's young, of course, so perhaps he heals and succeeds in becoming that heir-to-olajuwan that so many scouts believed he could be, but history says it's pretty likely that embiid misses significant time from season-to-season because of recurring injury problems...

it's true enough that the sixers are currently still sitting on a valuable stockpile of draft picks, and they could very well parlay that stockpile into a future contending team. there is definitely talent to be had in the upcoming draft. but does that talent get grown in philadelphia if hinkie had remained in charge? does it ever amount to more than just a valuation on a spreadsheet? do the players ever get over their resentment of a franchise culture that actually prizes losing? can the team retain that talent? can they attract new talent via free agency? and how many fans will have vacated the building in "the process"? it's one thing to sandbag a bit in a few games down the stretch of a lost season, and another thing entirely to build an entire franchise's future around that strategy. it's hard to imagine a team creating an environment more repelling than the one the kings have created for themselves across the last decade, yet the sixers managed to do it in just a few seasons...

so, rather than engineering the mother of all tanking strategies that damages the franchise's reputation and their team-wide culture and their potential ability to retain their own talent or attract new talent, might it be just as wise--if not moreso--to simply scout and draft well within the context of a traditional rebuild, which usually nets a few valuable first round selections for most teams that engage in such a rebuild? sure, the chances of hitting on a superstar are much higher when you 1) have more draft picks, and 2) consistently pick higher than most other teams, but given the toxic conditions that such a strategy can ultimately create, there's still a high probability of failure, and that failure comes at the very high cost of fan interest and ticket sales...
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#19
I don't see the "toxic conditions" being an issue at all. Part of the strategy is that virtually every player currently on the roster is fungible. Stage one was never about team building, it was about asset accumulation. And that was by design and with the blessing/at the request of ownership.

But more to the point, I'd take bets from KF.com members that believe the Kings will be a better team than the Sixers two years from now.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#21
I don't see the "toxic conditions" being an issue at all. Part of the strategy is that virtually every player currently on the roster is fungible. Stage one was never about team building, it was about asset accumulation. And that was by design and with the blessing/at the request of ownership.

But more to the point, I'd take bets from KF.com members that believe the Kings will be a better team than the Sixers two years from now.
If we get the right head coach in, we will be in a better place 2 years from now than the 76ers. Vlade has done a very good job in year 1. The Sixers have a ways to go.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#22
Maybe

If we went full rebuild at some point.
Well, there seems to be a lot of talk (particularly on Grant's show) about trading Cousins this offseason. The Kings would theoretically get back a package of picks and young players to start the rebuild but considering the Kings and Sixers have about equal records when Cousins doesn't play that doesn't bode well. Especially when considering that the Sixers have three and possibly four first rounders this year, own the Kings first rounder in either 2018 and 2019 along with the rights to swap picks with the Kings (which could really hurt in a rebuild scenario), have $50 million in cap room and have an "experienced" GM in place now. Not to mention the possibility of Embiid finally playing and possibly fulfilling some of his promise.

If the Kings trade Cousins this offseason I wouldn't even want to bet Kings fans on which team will be better in two years. That would be like stealing money.

If we get the right head coach in, we will be in a better place 2 years from now than the 76ers. Vlade has done a very good job in year 1. The Sixers have a ways to go.
Maybe. The Kings are about to complete 10 straight years without a winning record. Even with a great improvement in terms of coaching I can't see this team as currently constructed (assuming almost all the caproom is used to resign Rondo and maybe Curry) being more than a 7th or 8th seed. I think significant changes need to be made to build a winner out of this roster. That's certainly true of the Sixers too but they have a lot more chips to use.

I guess I'd look at it this way. If you were an in demand GM candidate without ties to either team and both the Kings and Sixers jobs were open this summer, which one would you take?
 
#23
But more to the point, I'd take bets from KF.com members that believe the Kings will be a better team than the Sixers two years from now.
I'll take that bet. The Kings will be better than the Sixers in two years, barring any major signings or trades that land a super star.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#24
Well, there seems to be a lot of talk (particularly on Grant's show) about trading Cousins this offseason. The Kings would theoretically get back a package of picks and young players to start the rebuild but considering the Kings and Sixers have about equal records when Cousins doesn't play that doesn't bode well. Especially when considering that the Sixers have three and possibly four first rounders this year, own the Kings first rounder in either 2018 and 2019 along with the rights to swap picks with the Kings (which could really hurt in a rebuild scenario), have $50 million in cap room and have an "experienced" GM in place now. Not to mention the possibility of Embiid finally playing and possibly fulfilling some of his promise.

If the Kings trade Cousins this offseason I wouldn't even want to bet Kings fans on which team will be better in two years. That would be like stealing money.



Maybe. The Kings are about to complete 10 straight years without a winning record. Even with a great improvement in terms of coaching I can't see this team as currently constructed (assuming almost all the caproom is used to resign Rondo and maybe Curry) being more than a 7th or 8th seed. I think significant changes need to be made to build a winner out of this roster. That's certainly true of the Sixers too but they have a lot more chips to use.

I guess I'd look at it this way. If you were an in demand GM candidate without ties to either team and both the Kings and Sixers jobs were open this summer, which one would you take?
I thought with the current roster that they could be a 7th or 8th seed this year...still believe it. This team was coached very well IMO. I just don't see that from the Sixers at the moment. I DO think the Sixers have a really good coach and they have a couple of nice young bigs but in reality, I think most of their other players are backup types. If you are a legit starting player/RFA why would you choose Philly? I think Sac is further a long.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#25
I'll take that bet. The Kings will be better than the Sixers in two years, barring any major signings or trades that land a super star.
Bear in mind, Bryan Colangelo is now walking into that GM job with over $50 million in caproom, at least one and maybe two top 4 picks, two mid to late 1st rounders, bigs to build around or trade in Noel and Okafor and a firm desire to improve the team dramatically THIS offseason.

If the Trailblazers can lose four of five starters and still be better than the Kings I'm far from convinced that the Sixers can't be a playoff team within two seasons with the right moves. They already have a good coach. And if they get anything from Embiid or if Saric decides to come over that's just gravy.

Jahlil Okafor
Ben Simmons
Harrison Barnes
Kent Bazemore
Kris Dunn

with a bench of:
Noel
Embiid
Saric
Landry
Grant
Smith or McConnell
1st Round Pick from the Heat
1st Round pick from the Thunder
2nd Round pick

is a very doable roster and one that (while it still has some very mismatched pieces) has a lot of promise and enough intriguing pieces to make trades to balance things out.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#27
I tend to agree with Funky. If their assets are used properly, Philly could become a competitive team within the next two years. They have more tradeable assets than we do. They remind me a little bit of the Celtics team that traded away a lot of young assets for veteran players and won a world championship. Not exactly the same, but the approach is very similar. Most of the Kings problems have come from mismanagement. No surprise there! Five or six year ago I posted about the similarities of the Warriors and the Kings. At the time the teams had similar talent, and similar records. The Warriors had 26 wins and 56 losses that year, and the Kings had 25 wins and 27 losses.

Five or six years latter, the Warriors are the current world champions, and are the favorites to repeat, while the Kings are still floundering in place. I'm not bringing this up to rub it in the face of Kings fans. I'm bringing it up as an example of how fast things can turn around if you know what your doing. The Warriors had just drafted Curry, and already had Monte Ellis, a fan favorite. The Kings had just drafted Tyreke Evans and already had Kevin Martin. The Kings decided that they could build something out of what was already there, while the Warriors decided to clean house except for Curry. Now that's a simplistic description, and either approach can be the right one. The trick is knowing which one.

I think the Kings are at a tipping point right now. They have to decide whether to continue with the current approach, or to clean house and start over. Both approaches have risk attached. There is no easy path, and the wrong decision could affect the franchise for years to come. I'm not going to suggest that I have the answer, although I'm sure some of you think you do. One way or the other, this should be an exciting summer.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#28
The Warriors also KILLED it in the draft, while we....uh.....Didnt (sorry Jimmer, T-Rob, Nik, and B-Mac).

Edit: and even when we did make good picks, like Tyreke and IT, we end up blowing it by trading them away for BS.

Besides Cuz, the draft has been unkind to us.
 
Last edited:
#29
Just after the Seattle saga ended and Vivek was officially named owner I started a thread about possible coaching and GM candidates. For GMs Hinkie was at the top of my list and I haven't seen anything from him that has changed my mind.

The Sixers have a great trade chip in Okafor, a great defender in Noel, the rights to a guy widely regarded as one of the best European players, a guy who could still just as easily become an all-star big man as the next Greg Oden in Embiid, he drafted the ROY in the late lottery in Carter-Williams and then got a nice haul for him before people realized he just isn't a starter quality PG.

And of course he's stockpiled a ridiculous number of picks including a pretty decent possibility of having two top 4 picks this year.

The Sixers are a punchline right now but in a year or two when they are in the same place as the T'Wolves as a team with a great collection of young talent and a bright future will Hinkie get the credit he deserves?

Sam Hinkie is bright, shrewd and patient. If he'd been hired instead of D'Alessandro I have no doubt the Kings would be in a much better position going forward.
I'm also a big fan of Hinkie and he's basically the darling of the analytics community.

But his issue was he didn't make any visible progress with team; he didn't even build a roster. And in today's Sports world, 3 years is an eternity for fans and for expectations so he got scape-goated.

But I would gladly take their situation over ours. It's honestly not close