"right In The Middle"?

SacTownKid · Dec 1, 2005

February is too late. We SHOULD have a good idea of what this team can do in about 20-25 games. I don't think I have seen enough to say scrap it all, but there are glaring weaknesses and if they wait till the deadline to make decisions this season is most likely lost. If this team goes .500 in december changes may be made soon there after, despite how long we give them.

Kings113 · Dec 1, 2005

I didn't mean the deadline, I meant in general, or later January.

playmaker0017 · Dec 2, 2005

SacTownKid said:

Don't blame the interior defense.

The team collapses because they are undisciplined on defense.

The biggest issues I see with this team is the incessant desire to play matador on the perimeter. The issues with our defense begin there. The next issue is that we switch ... EVERY TIME. Any team that passes the ball and takes two dribbles is guaranteed an open shot. A simple screen is enough to send this team into a tizzy.

So, where is the defensive issue? Interior/Exterior? Neither and both.

What do I mean? The real issue is TEAM defense. Outside of Bibby (and sometimes Brad Miller), most of our guys are decent to above average man-on-man defenders. But, none of them are quick enough to make the proper rotation, not quick enough or strong enough to fight screens ... so we switch constantly ... and the other man often doesn't switch off either.

Our issue is TEAM defense. Communication.

Then comes grit. We have none.

Making a move for a good defender would be nice, but I think they would be lost in the confusion of poor defensive play by the rest of the team. For instance, Bonzi has been a very good defender for the majority of his career, but he looks terrible in Sacamento.

The issue is coaching and our style of offense. It lends itself to too much running and tires guys out so that they can't play defense with any intensity. It gives up too many fast break transition baskets.

Notice that the best defensive teams are slow and methodical?

Ryle · Dec 2, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

Agree, I sometimes laugh when someone gets an easy bucket off a screen and role or some other Junior High School play and everyone on the Kings stands around looking at each other like they don't know what happened.

starks · Dec 2, 2005

I still think that importance of defense in NBA is overrated but even for my standards kings' defense is below any average....if they have problem to stop guys like dunleavy and colliosn, there is no play-off this season...

Kings113 · Dec 2, 2005

starks said:

Really? What a statement...

Bricklayer · Dec 2, 2005

Ryle said:

Does not work as an explanation -- same offense led the league in defense three years ago.

Personnel. Personnel. Personnel.

There is no shotblocking, no defensive leader, no stoppers, few hustle guys. Our best rebounder is a guard. Three of our 5 positions are slowfooted. Both our forwards were notorious softies even before this year began.

If I went down position by position comparing defense/rebounding/hustle/shotblocking/size to the 2003 team, I could make an argument that EVERY single roster spot that has changed since that time (everybody except Bibby & Peja, who may actually be worse themselves) is worse in those areas. EVERY one. That's not easy to accomplish.

Vlade > Brad (saavy, length, steals, blocks)
Webb > SAR (rebounds, steals, blocks, presence)
Doug > Bonzi (Bonzi's rebounding is huge, but Doug was All-Defense and our leader)
Bobby > Hart (Hart can be a good denfeder, but nowhere near the hustle/rebounding/energetic impact)
Pollard > KT (much bigger, more physical, shotblocking, banging)
Hedo > Kevin (bigger, more versatile, more physical)
JJ > Garcia (tough, strong, experienced, huge boarder for us that year)
Keon > Skinner (Keon was a MAJOR impact shotblocker at 2+ a game in limited minutes)
Wallace > Corliss (the uberathlete and shotblocker/stealer/rebounder as 11th man)

I've mentioend this many times before because it is so obvious -- the coach hasn;t changed. The system hasn't changed. The players have changed. And not for the better.

playmaker0017 · Dec 2, 2005

starks said:

Interesting that the best defensive teams have faced off in the WCF almost every year.

starks · Dec 2, 2005

I'm not sure but I think from 1979 to 2004 score is 12 (best offensive teams):12 (best defensive teams) (nba champions)....only one season celtics were ranked as 4th on both lists

1kingzfan · Dec 2, 2005

Bricklayer said:

Well done.

You've made is SOOOOOOOOO simple, Brick.

It's enough to make the Adelman haters turn into Petrie haters.

For me, though, if I HAD to point to just ONE thing that has led to our recent demise (although we can see there are many, many), it's no longer having that 2-guard safety blanket for Mike Bibby's porous defense which is most often the "first domino to fall" in the collapse of our "team" defense, night in and night out.

starks · Dec 2, 2005

"You can win without the offense. You can almost never win without the defense." (for some reason quote button does not work)

who was champion without offense?

Bricklayer · Dec 2, 2005

starks said:

I would certainly put the earlier two Spurs champions and Pistons champs in that category.

playmaker0017 · Dec 2, 2005

starks said:

Please enlighten me to the offensive team that was lacking defense that won a championship within the past 10 years. Within the past 20.

You might have had the BEST offensive team win it - but I guarantee their defense was amoung the top 7 in the league.

Offense can be stopped. Offense can sputter.

Defense never sputters. It's about effort and you can bring it no matter what's happening on offense.

starks · Dec 2, 2005

Bricklayer said:

agree....but on the other hand lal for 80' were run'n'gun team with decent defense but without their offense they wouldn't be champs....and here are soome finals where offense decided the winners:
'94: hou-ny
'98: chi-uta
'88: lal-det
'87: lal-bos
'05: sas-det
and if defense wins (without offense) ben wallace should be MVP in last 4 seasons

Danny Ocean · Dec 2, 2005

Enough about our lack of a bench already. What difference would it make if we had a bench. Adelman doesnt like to play his bench players anyway. Lets get our starters up to speed.

uolj · Dec 2, 2005

Rankings are from DatabaseBasketball.com's team rankings based on their own formula.

Code:

	Team	O-Rank	D-Rank
04-05	SAS	8	1
03-04	DET	18	2
02-03	SAS	6	3
01-02	LAL	2	7
00-01	LAL	2	19
99-00	LAL	4	1
98-99	SAS	10	1
97-98	CHI	12	3
96-97	CHI	1	4
95-96	CHI	1	1
94-95	HOU	6	12
93-94	HOU	14	4
92-93	CHI	3	8
91-92	CHI	1	4
90-91	CHI	1	6
89-90	DET	11	1
88-89	DET	7	3
87-88	LAL	2	11
86-87	LAL	1	6
85-86	BOS	3	2
84-85	LAL	1	6
83-84	BOS	6	3
82-83	PHI	5	5
81-82	LAL	2	9
80-81	BOS	5	4

Kings113 · Dec 2, 2005

Danny Ocean said:

If we had a spark/scoring punch off there, it'd sure help.

Ryan · Dec 2, 2005

Mad D said:

haha, so true. I just remind myself this is a rebuilding year......then I have a beer....

nbrans · Dec 2, 2005

Here's a newsflash. Usually teams who win championships are good on offense AND defense.

SacTownKid · Dec 2, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

I totally agree on both these points, but it still doesn't change the fact that Reef and Brad are not shotblockers or good paint defenders. Which I DO think is a little overrated, but still important if the guys on the perimeter won't stop anything. We had Greg Ostertag last year and when he was in, the game changed for us. Of course, I guess he couldn't do the things Adelman wanted him to because he never played.

And I don't think its just about personel in concerns with our defensive woes. If I hadn't seen these guys bust their butts off in certain stretches this season I would say we should just give it up. They have shown flashes of good defense, and have really moved on D, effecting the other team. Thats why its has been so frustrating these last few years, they have shown they can, they just don't.

slugking50 · Dec 2, 2005

Bricklayer said:

Does not work as an explanation -- same offense led the league in defense three years ago.

Personnel. Personnel. Personnel.

There is no shotblocking, no defensive leader, no stoppers, few hustle guys. Our best rebounder is a guard. Three of our 5 positions are slowfooted. Both our forwards were notorious softies even before this year began.

If I went down position by position comparing defense/rebounding/hustle/shotblocking/size to the 2003 team, I could make an argument that EVERY single roster spot that has changed since that time (everybody except Bibby & Peja, who may actually be worse themselves) is worse in those areas. EVERY one. That's not easy to accomplish.

Vlade > Brad (saavy, length, steals, blocks)
Webb > SAR (rebounds, steals, blocks, presence)
Doug > Bonzi (Bonzi's rebounding is huge, but Doug was All-Defense and our leader)
Bobby > Hart (Hart can be a good denfeder, but nowhere near the hustle/rebounding/energetic impact)
Pollard > KT (much bigger, more physical, shotblocking, banging)
Hedo > Kevin (bigger, more versatile, more physical)
JJ > Garcia (tough, strong, experienced, huge boarder for us that year)
Keon > Skinner (Keon was a MAJOR impact shotblocker at 2+ a game in limited minutes)
Wallace > Corliss (the uberathlete and shotblocker/stealer/rebounder as 11th man)

I've mentioend this many times before because it is so obvious -- the coach hasn;t changed. The system hasn't changed. The players have changed. And not for the better.

^^^^ Nailed it!

kennadog · Dec 2, 2005

Bricklayer said:

Does not work as an explanation -- same offense led the league in defense three years ago.

Personnel. Personnel. Personnel.

There is no shotblocking, no defensive leader, no stoppers, few hustle guys. Our best rebounder is a guard. Three of our 5 positions are slowfooted. Both our forwards were notorious softies even before this year began.

If I went down position by position comparing defense/rebounding/hustle/shotblocking/size to the 2003 team, I could make an argument that EVERY single roster spot that has changed since that time (everybody except Bibby & Peja, who may actually be worse themselves) is worse in those areas. EVERY one. That's not easy to accomplish.

Vlade > Brad (saavy, length, steals, blocks)
Webb > SAR (rebounds, steals, blocks, presence)
Doug > Bonzi (Bonzi's rebounding is huge, but Doug was All-Defense and our leader)
Bobby > Hart (Hart can be a good denfeder, but nowhere near the hustle/rebounding/energetic impact)
Pollard > KT (much bigger, more physical, shotblocking, banging)
Hedo > Kevin (bigger, more versatile, more physical)
JJ > Garcia (tough, strong, experienced, huge boarder for us that year)
Keon > Skinner (Keon was a MAJOR impact shotblocker at 2+ a game in limited minutes)
Wallace > Corliss (the uberathlete and shotblocker/stealer/rebounder as 11th man)

I've mentioend this many times before because it is so obvious -- the coach hasn;t changed. The system hasn't changed. The players have changed. And not for the better.

Exactly, amen and thank you!

GoGoGadget · Dec 2, 2005

slugking50 said:

What he said.

VF21 · Dec 3, 2005

^^^Sorry I'm late to the party but ...

What she said about what he said about what he said...

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