Obviously not a blockbuster but maybe some cap clearance?
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ck-williams-trade/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ck-williams-trade/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
Mbah a Moute-Williams trade? (merged)
- Thread starter EIM86
- Start date
We're obviously in rough shape at SF, though Outlaw and Mbah A Moute are at least reasonably productive. So it makes sense from that angle. And Williams can't get off the bench in Minnesota so I think it's practically guaranteed he will be traded either during the season or soon after it. I've been saying already that Thompson is the only trade with us that makes sense on their end. The hang-up would be if they want something else (or if we do).
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ccelerate-rebuild/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
Looks like we're really trying to get some cap clearance
Looks like we're really trying to get some cap clearance
First, Thompson has more value than Williams at this point, and is certainly more valuable to us than Williams would be. Secondly, the original rumor had us trading Hayes, who Adelman likes, for Williams. Hayes has no future with us, and Thompson probably does, so that trade makes more sense for us and for them, and that's a trade I would do. I would not trade Thompson for Williams, and I certainly wouldn't add anyone else to Thompson, if I wouldn't trade him.
I doubt the five game loosing streak has anything to do with it, but the Dec 15 deadline, when players that were not tradable until then probably has a lot to do with it. I think they intend to turn this entire team over except for a few players. To some extent, they're using the Warriors as a model, and its not a bad one. Three years ago, the Warriors and the Kings were almost mirror reflections of each other. A lot of average veterans, and misfitting parts. They kept what they thought was of value, and totally blew up the rest of the team. A couple of very good drafts, and a couple of key trades, and now their a contender. Who wants to buy a new car made up of used parts.
Both players make almost the same amount, and both players contracts are up at the same time. So there's little risk to the trade and we get whats left of this season and next season to try Williams out. If we don't like him, then we let him walk, or perhaps trade him as part of another deal as an expiring contract.
K
The Twolves need another guy who can make shots off the bench imo we offer them Thornton and Vasquez for Williams and Shved, Vasquez is not a long term solution for us and I rather gamble on Shved who imo has potential (and is a good passing player) and Williams, Twolves are in win now mode imo 2 solid potential pieces ain't bad. Plus if we let Jimmer go next season we got Alexy to back up M16
I don't believe in Williams. But that said obviously you get him just if you do. Guys like Outlaw or Mbah a Moute are just limited roleplayers. they may not even be in the league in 3 years. If you get Williams its because you think he can become a player of more significance than that. Outside of being drafted high I'm not sure how much evidence there is of that, but he can at least have some big raw number inefficient stretches at times, so I guess you hope for a reverse Gerald Wallace situation with Adelman again.
But not for Jason. We really need him barring some other size materializing for us. And I have such a hard time imagining Hayes being worth Williams, and its hard to see what else we have that they would want. Why Jimmer if you have Barea? Why Thornton if you have KMart? PPat I suppose, although I don't know how big a step up that is for them, and it just makes Williams a new stretch 4 for us instead of letting him take over at SF. Just awkward trading partner fit.
But not for Jason. We really need him barring some other size materializing for us. And I have such a hard time imagining Hayes being worth Williams, and its hard to see what else we have that they would want. Why Jimmer if you have Barea? Why Thornton if you have KMart? PPat I suppose, although I don't know how big a step up that is for them, and it just makes Williams a new stretch 4 for us instead of letting him take over at SF. Just awkward trading partner fit.
I don't think he does. Crawford, like most super-subs, can come into the game and take over the offense for you. Thornton, when he is on, is a good shooter, but nothing more. He does not break people down off the dribble which means he requires someone to set up looks for him. At his very best he is a second option and you want your super-sub to have the capacity of being a first option.
It's the difference between Manu Ginobli and Danny Green. It might work with Juan Barea in the backcourt with him, but that backcourt lineup is a defensive nightmare, even off the bench.
I also think Adelman is picky about the players he is going to bring into a system, and I don't think Thornton would fit in with his motion offense particularly well.
It's the difference between Manu Ginobli and Danny Green. It might work with Juan Barea in the backcourt with him, but that backcourt lineup is a defensive nightmare, even off the bench.
I also think Adelman is picky about the players he is going to bring into a system, and I don't think Thornton would fit in with his motion offense particularly well.
I think you guys are being awfully close-minded about this Jason Thompson situation. We have to be realistic about what does and does not have value. Thornton is getting paid a lot of money to do nothing right now so you have to convince somebody he can at least come close to getting them 15-18 points per game. I believe Minnesota might be interested in Hayes (or Landry) only because of the Adelman situation, but otherwise Thompson and IT are basically the only positive value vets we have. The rest are valuable only as expiring contracts in the near future.
Here's the thing with Thompson -- and I understand that most disagree with me on this and see him as a productive player -- but we don't need him. He's not helping us win anything. At PF right now we have Thompson, Patterson, Hayes, and Landry. Landry and Thompson's contracts are almost identical and neither of them is a starter.
This is what we're losing in Thompson (Last 4 years):
8.8pts, 6.3rebs, 1.1ast, 0.4stl, 0.6blk (24.4mpg)
This is what we'd be getting in Williams:
10.2pts, 5rebs, 0.6ast, 0.6stl, 0.5blk (22mpg)
The overall drop in production is negligible. Now i could have used Thompson's career numbers, but he's 27 years old and his production has already been declining. Derrick Williams is 22years old and has never had a chance to be a starter in the NBA. You can compare their per36 numbers as well if you like. Williams is a better scorer, Thompson grabs 1.5 more boards per game, but he should. He's played all of his minutes at PF/C.
The comparison in terms of raw production isn't as big as people make it out to be. If Thompson is so valuable, and Williams flat out sucks than how come Williams is averaging very similar stats as Thompson? Where is this untapped value that Thompson is somehow providing us? I think it simply boils down to the perception that 6'11" means he's valuable as a backup to Cousins which we already know is a tenuous position at best.
But look at our roster, take Thompson out and we get Patterson/Hayes at PF for two or three months until Landry comes back. You don't think Landry can put up 8.8 and 6 in 24mpg? Every NBA bench in the league has a guy who can give you those numbers. Heck, we have three of them. Wouldn't you rather have a 22 year old SF with some potential to get better alongside Cousins and McLemore than the John Salmons and Travis Outlaw flying circus? Mbah A Moute can split minutes at SF and PF anyway. What about a lineup of Vasquez/McLemore/Williams/Mbah A Moute/Cousins for now and we see what happens in the draft and off-season to bolster those forward positions?
For anyone who thinks this team needs a shot in the arm right now to improve the attitude of the team, swapping Thompson's minutes for Derrick Williams if nothing else constitutes a significant change to the personality of the team in the short-term future. And I think Williams is going to be so happy to be playing again, he might surprise some people (see also, the Marcus Thornton post-trade effect).
You have to take into account the natural growth arc of the player. If I had told you at the beginning of last season that Evan Turner would be a 20ppg scorer in the league before his rookie contract is up I would have been laughed out of the room. Look at the big step forward Cousins has taken in his fourth season. Williams is just 22 years old now, Thompson was 22 years old his rookie season and now he's a 6th year NBA vet. Think about that.
Here's the thing with Thompson -- and I understand that most disagree with me on this and see him as a productive player -- but we don't need him. He's not helping us win anything. At PF right now we have Thompson, Patterson, Hayes, and Landry. Landry and Thompson's contracts are almost identical and neither of them is a starter.
This is what we're losing in Thompson (Last 4 years):
8.8pts, 6.3rebs, 1.1ast, 0.4stl, 0.6blk (24.4mpg)
This is what we'd be getting in Williams:
10.2pts, 5rebs, 0.6ast, 0.6stl, 0.5blk (22mpg)
The overall drop in production is negligible. Now i could have used Thompson's career numbers, but he's 27 years old and his production has already been declining. Derrick Williams is 22years old and has never had a chance to be a starter in the NBA. You can compare their per36 numbers as well if you like. Williams is a better scorer, Thompson grabs 1.5 more boards per game, but he should. He's played all of his minutes at PF/C.
The comparison in terms of raw production isn't as big as people make it out to be. If Thompson is so valuable, and Williams flat out sucks than how come Williams is averaging very similar stats as Thompson? Where is this untapped value that Thompson is somehow providing us? I think it simply boils down to the perception that 6'11" means he's valuable as a backup to Cousins which we already know is a tenuous position at best.
But look at our roster, take Thompson out and we get Patterson/Hayes at PF for two or three months until Landry comes back. You don't think Landry can put up 8.8 and 6 in 24mpg? Every NBA bench in the league has a guy who can give you those numbers. Heck, we have three of them. Wouldn't you rather have a 22 year old SF with some potential to get better alongside Cousins and McLemore than the John Salmons and Travis Outlaw flying circus? Mbah A Moute can split minutes at SF and PF anyway. What about a lineup of Vasquez/McLemore/Williams/Mbah A Moute/Cousins for now and we see what happens in the draft and off-season to bolster those forward positions?
For anyone who thinks this team needs a shot in the arm right now to improve the attitude of the team, swapping Thompson's minutes for Derrick Williams if nothing else constitutes a significant change to the personality of the team in the short-term future. And I think Williams is going to be so happy to be playing again, he might surprise some people (see also, the Marcus Thornton post-trade effect).
You have to take into account the natural growth arc of the player. If I had told you at the beginning of last season that Evan Turner would be a 20ppg scorer in the league before his rookie contract is up I would have been laughed out of the room. Look at the big step forward Cousins has taken in his fourth season. Williams is just 22 years old now, Thompson was 22 years old his rookie season and now he's a 6th year NBA vet. Think about that.
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I kind of like Derrick Williams, but reminds me of a similar player which we just traded, Thomas Robinson. Although Williams can shoot the 3 and is more athletic.
Any chance Kings can get these players? Rondo, Jeff Green and Omer Asik without trading away Cousins and McLemore?
I think this would be a pretty good starting line-up
Rondo
McLemore
J.Green
Cousins
Asik
Plenty of scoring and for sure Coach Malone can make this line-up play better defense with better personnel.
I could dream or just make it happen in NBA 2K14
Any chance Kings can get these players? Rondo, Jeff Green and Omer Asik without trading away Cousins and McLemore?
I think this would be a pretty good starting line-up
Rondo
McLemore
J.Green
Cousins
Asik
Plenty of scoring and for sure Coach Malone can make this line-up play better defense with better personnel.
I could dream or just make it happen in NBA 2K14
You've got to be kidding me...
That's all you got from this? Nothing about the fact that they play different positions? Nothing about the age difference? Nothing about adding more shooting to the lineup? And frankly, I would flat out disagree with you about Thompson being a substantially better defender than Derrick Williams. I don't like defensive stats because they rarely tell you much about a player's team defense, but Williams gets more steals and almost as many blocks from the perimeter as Thompson gets playing inside and he averages half as many fouls in the process. I think Thompson is an average defender at best. Actually, one of the chief reasons I want to see him traded is that he gives the illusion of providing size and defense without really contributing much. At 6'9" with a 7' wingspan, Williams at SF has more of an impact on the defensive end than Thompson does at PF.
That's all you got from this? Nothing about the fact that they play different positions? Nothing about the age difference? Nothing about adding more shooting to the lineup? And frankly, I would flat out disagree with you about Thompson being a substantially better defender than Derrick Williams. I don't like defensive stats because they rarely tell you much about a player's team defense, but Williams gets more steals and almost as many blocks from the perimeter as Thompson gets playing inside and he averages half as many fouls in the process. I think Thompson is an average defender at best. Actually, one of the chief reasons I want to see him traded is that he gives the illusion of providing size and defense without really contributing much. At 6'9" with a 7' wingspan, Williams at SF has more of an impact on the defensive end than Thompson does at PF.
I watched a ton of Arizona the year that Williams broke out and rocketed up the draft boards. I was targeting potential SFs that the Kings could draft and the was watching pretty much all of the players who could have NBA talent such as Harrison Barnes, PJIII, Chris Singleton, Kawaii Leanoard, Jordan Hamilton, Jeff Taylor, ect. Because Arizona is in the Pac-10/12 I got to watch most of their games, so I saw him play a lot.
Arizona didn't play him at SF and in many cases he was their biggest player on the floor. I remember the games against USC where he was matched up against Nicola Vucevic (F/C who is tearing it up in Orlando).
The big question with him was whether or not he'd actually be able to play the SF position.
By the end of the season he had convinced me that he could play the SF position. He was very accurate from long range when he shot with his feet set and he had great athleticism.
I would absolutely be in favor of bringing him in, but only if the plan was to make him a dedicated SF. He isn't a PF and if you're going to play half of his minutes at the PF position then I don't think you do him or yourself any favors.
I would not in any way be in favor of trading him for JT because JT is a better big man than Williams will ever be, and with-out JT we don't have any true big-man depth behind Cousins.
So if the plan was to trade Hayes or Thornton or one of our SFs in order to bring in Williams to be our new starting SF, you can sign me up in a heartbeat. If the idea is to make the trade and try him out at PF (which wouldn't make sense with Landry waiting in the wings) then that's probably a losing proposition.
Arizona didn't play him at SF and in many cases he was their biggest player on the floor. I remember the games against USC where he was matched up against Nicola Vucevic (F/C who is tearing it up in Orlando).
The big question with him was whether or not he'd actually be able to play the SF position.
By the end of the season he had convinced me that he could play the SF position. He was very accurate from long range when he shot with his feet set and he had great athleticism.
I would absolutely be in favor of bringing him in, but only if the plan was to make him a dedicated SF. He isn't a PF and if you're going to play half of his minutes at the PF position then I don't think you do him or yourself any favors.
I would not in any way be in favor of trading him for JT because JT is a better big man than Williams will ever be, and with-out JT we don't have any true big-man depth behind Cousins.
So if the plan was to trade Hayes or Thornton or one of our SFs in order to bring in Williams to be our new starting SF, you can sign me up in a heartbeat. If the idea is to make the trade and try him out at PF (which wouldn't make sense with Landry waiting in the wings) then that's probably a losing proposition.