Lakers or Heat?

Who would you root for if the Lakers and Heat meet in the NBA Finals?


  • Total voters
    49

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
What a terrible thread this is.

The real difficulty is another title is Kobe's threepeat and 6th title, which will only make the incessant Kobe = Jordan carpers louder.

On the other hand the Heat are just flat bad for the NBA if their ploy works. They deserve a comeuppance in the worst way.

Which brings us back to Kobe and the claims of his greatness if he is the one to stop that train.

So I cheat:

If this were only going to be Kobe's 5th title, I root for the Lakers for the sake of the league (and who ever would have thought those phrases would be combined).

If Kobe is awful but the big frontcourt wins the day, I root for the Lakers for the sake of the league.

If Kobe has a big series and its Lakers rah rah bandwagon in full panoply, then screw the league, I root Heat.


That said, the Lakers are the old evil. The league has survived their presence for decades. What the Heat are trying to do is flat out dangerous, to teams like our own especially. If they run off and win LeBron's 8 title guarantee or whatever, its a complete disaster. There will be no choice for other stars -- CP3 and Melo abandon their teams first. Then the next round of stars, including possibly ours, will be next. Once that door is opened and proves to effectively be the only way to get it done, once parity is destroyed and their is effectively no way to beat a superteam, then the league is screwed. All the talent from this wonderful generation of losers we have masquerading as men will pool in 3 or 4 cities, because any other tactic will be hopeless. And the rest of us wil just float around as starless Washington Generals until hopefully another more competitive league is started up to put the NBA out of business. The Heat HAVE to lose, or this mess has to be cleared up in the new CBA. The mere fact I would consider any scenario where I'd prefer Kobe and his obnoxious jocksniffing fans to lose out shows an irrational thought process on my part.
 
#33
What the Heat are trying to do is flat out dangerous, to teams like our own especially. If they run off and win LeBron's 8 title guarantee or whatever, its a complete disaster.
I think many people disagree with you here, which is why the "old evil", or rather the permanent rival, is still despised more. Changes can be put in place to prevent this scenario from occurring (if it turns out to be a bad thing), but the Lakers will always be the Lakers.
 
#34
I think many people disagree with you here, which is why the "old evil", or rather the permanent rival, is still despised more. Changes can be put in place to prevent this scenario from occurring (if it turns out to be a bad thing), but the Lakers will always be the Lakers.

You might sing a different tune if Brick is correct though. Imagine if LBJ wins the title the next few years. Then other stars like CP3, Howard, Melo, etc... realize that to compete they must join. What does that mean for our superstar Reke in a few years? Maybe he joins his own superteam....
 
#35
You might sing a different tune if Brick is correct though. Imagine if LBJ wins the title the next few years. Then other stars like CP3, Howard, Melo, etc... realize that to compete they must join. What does that mean for our superstar Reke in a few years? Maybe he joins his own superteam....
Or maybe we give him his own superteam right where he started. How come that's not an option? DMC is being regarded as the best big man to come out of the draft since Shaq. We have gobbs of cap space, and will have even more next summer. Just because LeBron ran to Miami doesn't mean that every free agent star is going to try to craft his own superteam. We're overreacting here.
 
#36
You might sing a different tune if Brick is correct though. Imagine if LBJ wins the title the next few years. Then other stars like CP3, Howard, Melo, etc... realize that to compete they must join. What does that mean for our superstar Reke in a few years? Maybe he joins his own superteam....
I don't know. This is only a big deal because of James and because there were three stars that could all decide their fate at the same time and all decided to join together. Bosh playing with Wade in Miami, or Yao in Houston, or even James in Cleveland would not have been a big deal.

So what you're worried about is three stars joining together, but that's not easy to do. There really haven't been many instances where two guys decide to team up of their own volition, so I don't see why this scenario is going to be the rule instead of the exception.

And the one reason that sort of makes sense, that they might reel off a bunch of championships in a row and others will have to join together to compete, would in my opinion be nullified by rules changes to prevent that from happening. So in the end what you have is a small chance that others will want to do this on their own, plus a chance that it will be wildly successful for the Heat and others will be forced to do it to compete, plus the chance that it won't be remedied before Evans and Cousins are big enough stars to try to do the same thing. To me, all that seems possible but unlikely, and so it logically loses out when I decide who to root for.

Besides, if it does happen, then I'll still be a Kings fan and hope they find a new way to compete until the playing field will be leveled, and as a watcher of the NBA I won't be disappointed because Magic/Kareem/Worthy and Bird/McHale/Parrish and Jordan/Pippen/Grant were all fun to watch win and compete against each other in this league in the past so I don't see why it can't be fun to watch really good teams in the future.
 
#37
I agreed with Supe...it's not as easy as it looks. To plan it then execute it when there's a lot of money to consider require a lot of trust from each player as well.
 
#39
I'm not rooting for any of them, but if I must root, I'm rooting for the Heat to lose.
Im with you there.

I didnt like James to begin with, now i really dont like him, and i cant stand Bosh, could be his whole attitude when asked about coming to Sac...

I hate both teams, but i dont want to see Miami win anything.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#41
Or maybe we give him his own superteam right where he started. How come that's not an option? DMC is being regarded as the best big man to come out of the draft since Shaq. We have gobbs of cap space, and will have even more next summer. Just because LeBron ran to Miami doesn't mean that every free agent star is going to try to craft his own superteam. We're overreacting here.
The "superteam" is not happening in Sacto. Its just not. The pressure will be on for Reke and Cousins to leave that berg from the moment they blossom, from their agents, their sponsors, their peers, and quite possibly their families. Let alone more guys coming who have NEVER come in the entire history of that city. Once the players control the process of superteam creation, they are all going to take place in favored locales for prominent teams. New York, Boston, Miami, L.A.. Maybe Chicago despite the snub this offseason. And even if it DID magically work out so Sacramento somehow got added to the shortlist, so what? How stupid and selfish a group of fans would we have to be to celebrate becoming part of a great problem that would severely diminish the very thing we've been chasing. The ultimate response to the players saying "if you can't beat them, join them" would be for the fans to say that themselves -- well the league is ****ed, guess we might as well join in the ****ing.

And the danger here BTW is precisely that the players are driving this. Always in the past, and I do mean always, superteams (and BTW there has basically only been a couple that have ever had more than 1 in his prime franchise player) were constructed by front offices. That meant they were the result of competition, and any team in theory had the ability to do the same thing under the artifical balances negotiated under the CBAs. There was no chance of proliferation, because it was all the result of a competitive process. Make good trades, draft well, maybe you get one. Make bad trades, you lose out. But there have been relatively few checks on the players constructing a team like Miami, because the assumption always was that you could count on players' greed and competetive ego to serve as a parity inducing element. If those things can't function as a balance anymore, than there is basically NOTHING to prevent elite players and powerbroker agents from manipulating the entire system however they wish to. Alarmist? Today, yes. Let the Heat run off the next 5 titles and be poised to completely lock an entire generation of superstars out of the title hunt unless they adopt similar tactics, and it goes from alarmist to just flat fact. And then people are going to wonder why didn't anybody stop this from happening?

There are a very limited number of elite talents in the league at any one time. Not nearly enough to go around in a league that struggles with true parity anyway (a total of 8 teams comprising essentially 12 different dynasties (some doubled up) have won every title for the past 30 years. If the few franchise players that there are end up clumped on a handful of teams people arguing that this is not a problem are going to look flat ignorant. Its a disaster in the making. And there are basically only two ways to prevent it. One is rules changes to stop this in the future. Uolj seems to be clinging to that, but we are entering an incredibly contentious CBA with a lockout already looming, and these issues could easily, and I do mean easily, get left behind in the face of the hundreds of millions of dollars being haggled over. And with the new CBA beginning next year (or whenever we get to play again), if its not dealt with next summer, by the time the next CBA after that is being negotiated the damage will already be done. Guys will already be timing their outs to try to team up to knock off the 6x champions. The alternate route to shortciruiting the disaster is simply the Heat losing. It not working. Which is of course what we are talking about here. However the Heat cannot lose and tarnish the superstar team strategy without the Lakers winning now can they?
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#42
If youre a kings fan you have to choose the heat on this one. Im actually happy about the whole Miami situation. I would HATE for LA to be the favorites AGAIN. I hope to find a small child crying about the lakers losing to the heat in the 10-11 finals so that I can take his toys/juice/cookies etc. and make it even worse. I really hate the 7akers that much lol
You know one of the worst things about the Heat mess? The Lakers can't lose anymore. At least not to the Heat. If they get beat by the Heat they get to join the rest of the league and play the victim. How could we be expected to beat *that*? Buncha cheaters. Lets them entirely off the hook. No crying, no damage ot the "legacy". All of a sudden they've been given an out so that they can only increase the legacy as the plucky team that knocked off the superteam, but suffer not at all from a loss. All of a sudden the Lakers have done it "the right way" and can lose with honor.
 
#43
You know one of the worst things about the Heat mess? The Lakers can't lose anymore. At least not to the Heat. If they get beat by the Heat they get to join the rest of the league and play the victim. How could we be expected to beat *that*? Buncha cheaters. Lets them entirely off the hook. No crying, no damage ot the "legacy". All of a sudden they've been given an out so that they can only increase the legacy as the plucky team that knocked off the superteam, but suffer not at all from a loss. All of a sudden the Lakers have done it "the right way" and can lose with honor.
The way I see it ... LA is only going to be a pest in the league for another 3 years at max. To my knowledge, Kings fans never had any problems with the Lakers before the Kings actually got good, and that LA team was almost entirely different from the one now. Once Kobe is gone, or just becomes too old to take over games, the Lakers will fall off the map for a while. At the same time, the Kings will probably be one of the up and coming teams. So why should I care about the Lakers then, when we should be easily beating them. Our rivals would more likely be teams such as OKC and now Miami ...

For the record I'm not against Miami and the way they put together their team. I don't think it was cheating or anything. But I'm hating on LeBron for being an ***, and my hate for him supersedes my liking of Wade. So screw the Lakers, let them win another championship, and then let them disappear, and when we're contending our opponents the Miami Heat will be less of favourites to win if they still haven't got a title in however many years.
 
#44
Or maybe we give him his own superteam right where he started. How come that's not an option? DMC is being regarded as the best big man to come out of the draft since Shaq. We have gobbs of cap space, and will have even more next summer. Just because LeBron ran to Miami doesn't mean that every free agent star is going to try to craft his own superteam. We're overreacting here.
We have one all star in Reke. We have a second POTENTIAL all star in Cousins. Who is the third all star? Heck, who is the second all star if Cousins is merely good, not great.

Gobbs of cap space is great. Now, name every big time free agent our franchise has ever signed. Quick. It shouldn't take long. There is one- Vlade. And we love Vlade, he was an amazing fit, an amazing man, and was the heart of the team, but the guy was not a star. He had a transcendent presence about him, and he was the ultimate glue on a great team, but even in his best seasons he was a good player, not great.

Who was the second best free agent we have ever signed- even in the GOOD years? SAR? Mikki? Vernon Maxwell? Jason Hart (LOL)? I didn't double check the list of acquisitions, so I might be missing a capable rotation player we got via free agency, but the point is that stars have NEVER come to Sacramento. it was true when we sucked, it was true when we were elite, it was true when we had Webber/Vlade and the best team in the league, true when we had a 50 win team led by Bibby/Peja, true when we were led by Ron, and true when we were led by Kmart. We will NEVER be a destination for big time free agents.

Perhaps we can get a third star via trade or the draft (Geoff has done that many times), but I seriously doubt our gobbs of cap space will be used for anything other than signing some quality role players and preparing to lock up key guys like Reke, DMC, Landry, etc.. down the line.

I would rather see us build a great team, led by Reke, with a complimentary star in DMC, and be surrounded by a bunch of good role players (JT, Landry, Garcia, Greene, Caspi, Beno). But, if a super team works out, and you have LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and then they get surrounded by elite role players willing to play for less (Ilguaskas, haslem, Miller, etc...) our great team is unlikely to win. Hell. if Miami gels, and this super team works out, they will be near impossible to beat. The one thing they had going against them was that they had no depth. If great role players are willing to go there for nothing, and it works out, and then other stars like CP3, Howard, Melo, etc... realize the only way to a championship is to do the same thing, we are screwed...
 
#45
If youre a kings fan you have to choose the heat on this one. Im actually happy about the whole Miami situation. I would HATE for LA to be the favorites AGAIN. I hope to find a small child crying about the lakers losing to the heat in the 10-11 finals so that I can take his toys/juice/cookies etc. and make it even worse. I really hate the 7akers that much lol
LOL! This is officially one of the best things I have ever read. Thank you. :D
 
#46
Miami won't make the Finals next yr, imo. I don't see them taking out a complete team like ORL and BOS...yet. They don't have the personnel in the middle to hit ORL and BOS where they really hurt.
 
#47
Miami won't make the Finals next yr, imo. I don't see them taking out a complete team like ORL and BOS...yet. They don't have the personnel in the middle to hit ORL and BOS where they really hurt.
I was thinking along the same lines...kinda like this past season when I kept telling the guys at work that the Cavs wouldn't be in the finals. They were built for the regular season, hence the best record for the past 2 years. Everyone at work thought I was crazy! (Well.....) ;)
 
#48
You know one of the worst things about the Heat mess? The Lakers can't lose anymore. At least not to the Heat. If they get beat by the Heat they get to join the rest of the league and play the victim. How could we be expected to beat *that*? Buncha cheaters. Lets them entirely off the hook. No crying, no damage ot the "legacy". All of a sudden they've been given an out so that they can only increase the legacy as the plucky team that knocked off the superteam, but suffer not at all from a loss. All of a sudden the Lakers have done it "the right way" and can lose with honor.
I see where youre going with that. Ive pondered the same thing myself. However, at the end of the day as long as the 7akers dont win I can be happy.
 
#49
Miami won't make the Finals next yr, imo. I don't see them taking out a complete team like ORL and BOS...yet. They don't have the personnel in the middle to hit ORL and BOS where they really hurt.
Don't forget about Chicago. I think they are up there with Orlando and Boston after the moves they made, and would put all 3 of those teams ahead of Miami.
 
#50
The "superteam" is not happening in Sacto. Its just not. The pressure will be on for Reke and Cousins to leave that berg from the moment they blossom, from their agents, their sponsors, their peers, and quite possibly their families. Let alone more guys coming who have NEVER come in the entire history of that city. Once the players control the process of superteam creation, they are all going to take place in favored locales for prominent teams. New York, Boston, Miami, L.A.. Maybe Chicago despite the snub this offseason. And even if it DID magically work out so Sacramento somehow got added to the shortlist, so what? How stupid and selfish a group of fans would we have to be to celebrate becoming part of a great problem that would severely diminish the very thing we've been chasing. The ultimate response to the players saying "if you can't beat them, join them" would be for the fans to say that themselves -- well the league is ****ed, guess we might as well join in the ****ing.

And the danger here BTW is precisely that the players are driving this. Always in the past, and I do mean always, superteams (and BTW there has basically only been a couple that have ever had more than 1 in his prime franchise player) were constructed by front offices. That meant they were the result of competition, and any team in theory had the ability to do the same thing under the artifical balances negotiated under the CBAs. There was no chance of proliferation, because it was all the result of a competitive process. Make good trades, draft well, maybe you get one. Make bad trades, you lose out. But there have been relatively few checks on the players constructing a team like Miami, because the assumption always was that you could count on players' greed and competetive ego to serve as a parity inducing element. If those things can't function as a balance anymore, than there is basically NOTHING to prevent elite players and powerbroker agents from manipulating the entire system however they wish to. Alarmist? Today, yes. Let the Heat run off the next 5 titles and be poised to completely lock an entire generation of superstars out of the title hunt unless they adopt similar tactics, and it goes from alarmist to just flat fact. And then people are going to wonder why didn't anybody stop this from happening?

There are a very limited number of elite talents in the league at any one time. Not nearly enough to go around in a league that struggles with true parity anyway (a total of 8 teams comprising essentially 12 different dynasties (some doubled up) have won every title for the past 30 years. If the few franchise players that there are end up clumped on a handful of teams people arguing that this is not a problem are going to look flat ignorant. Its a disaster in the making. And there are basically only two ways to prevent it. One is rules changes to stop this in the future. Uolj seems to be clinging to that, but we are entering an incredibly contentious CBA with a lockout already looming, and these issues could easily, and I do mean easily, get left behind in the face of the hundreds of millions of dollars being haggled over. And with the new CBA beginning next year (or whenever we get to play again), if its not dealt with next summer, by the time the next CBA after that is being negotiated the damage will already be done. Guys will already be timing their outs to try to team up to knock off the 6x champions. The alternate route to shortciruiting the disaster is simply the Heat losing. It not working. Which is of course what we are talking about here. However the Heat cannot lose and tarnish the superstar team strategy without the Lakers winning now can they?
First off, as it pertains to the topic of the thread, I will never root for the Lakers. Ever. Sorry. If the NBA crashes and burns, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that the ****** up Laker fans started it outside the Staples Center as they lit cop cars on fire and beat each other up. Read my fingertips: I. Will. Not. Root. For. The. *******. Lakers. Get that through your skull.

Secondly, it is precisely the alarmist nature of your post that I'm standing against. For the demise of true competition in the NBA (and professional sports in general) to come about starting with this offseason's events, the SuperHeat have to actually succeed in some significant fashion. I've seen plenty of pundits, fans, former players, front offices, coaches, etc., stating their doubts that the Heat will be able to leapfrog the other teams in the East and bully their way into the Finals in one fell swoop. And if they were to fail this season, then all bets are off as far as chemistry is concerned. The team could implode on itself like a dying star. They've done a nice job adding players around the Three, but they still don't have a complete roster. We'll see how that pans out as we get closer to tip-off. There are other obstacles that they'll have to clear in order to actually be Kings of the Castle. It's still July. Let's wait.

As for the fix to this, I don't think that restricting free agency to the point that players can't choose where they want to play is the answer. One, the players' association would never let it happen. Two, if a player plays out his contract, he's earned his free agency. I don't think the team that drafted him or traded for him should have the right to lock him down indefinitely. I'd be open to a franchise player tag if it offered the player fair compensation (unlike the NFL's tag, which forces the player to play on a non-guaranteed one year deal, which is not commensurate to his free market value) and was restrictive in nature for the team using it. But I would hope that a fix could be found without using a tag.

I've sort of been a propopent of a hard cap, or at least a more firm cap than what we have now. That limitation would have cooled all talk of the SuperHeat before it even got going. It would make it practically impossible for a team to spend their way into contention, and would force a team to use all three avenues of team building to be relevant (not just free agency, but also the draft and trades). For instance, look at all the money the Lakers have put on their books in the last two years: Bynum's extension, Gasol's extension, Kobe's extension, Odom's deal, Artest for the MLE, Fisher's new deal... They are nearly $40 million over the cap! For Miami this summer, it would have been pretty impossible for them to build a legitimate 13 man roster around their big three. After Miller and Haslem, they'd be at the cap, so how do you fill out the roster?

As for building dynasties, in short order, Miami will be at $70 million. If you want to fight a hard cap, then institute a crippling luxury tax, one that progressively increases the restrictions on a team that's over the cap. Set the tax threshold at the cap, and make the tax percentage increase every season that you remain over the threshold. With yearly increases in player salary, a team has to scale back after a couple of seasons. And for the billionaire owners who don't care about a $40 million tax payment every year, you take away the MLE and the ability to hand out extensions once a team is over the cap.

For teams that lose players in free agency, provide them with compensatory picks, provided they make an offer to said player before free agency begins. This would require a tweak in free agency rules: So July 1-8, negotiations are restricted to the team with Bird rights. If you make an offer during restricted free agency, and the player still leaves for another team, you get a compensatory pick for losing your free agent, and the value of the pick is determined by several factors, including the value of the contract you offered. So Cleveland would get a high value compensatory pick at max value for losing LeBron, but Phoenix would not get a pick for losing Amare, because they made no effort to sign him.

I don't agree with the idea that this summer's events mean the end of a truly competitive NBA (if you even agree that the NBA is "truly competitive" as it is now). I'm sure there are some fixes being discussed with league officials now. I strongly disagree with the idea that you should restrict a player's rights to choose where he wants to play once he's satisfied the terms of his contract. I do think it should be much more difficult for any team to a) do what Miami did this summer, and b) keep it together for any extended length of time. That way there is no 6x champion Miami Heat come 2016. They will have been broken up due to salary cap restrictions by then.
 
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#51
We have one all star in Reke. We have a second POTENTIAL all star in Cousins. Who is the third all star? Heck, who is the second all star if Cousins is merely good, not great.

Gobbs of cap space is great. Now, name every big time free agent our franchise has ever signed. Quick. It shouldn't take long. There is one- Vlade. And we love Vlade, he was an amazing fit, an amazing man, and was the heart of the team, but the guy was not a star. He had a transcendent presence about him, and he was the ultimate glue on a great team, but even in his best seasons he was a good player, not great.

Who was the second best free agent we have ever signed- even in the GOOD years? SAR? Mikki? Vernon Maxwell? Jason Hart (LOL)? I didn't double check the list of acquisitions, so I might be missing a capable rotation player we got via free agency, but the point is that stars have NEVER come to Sacramento. it was true when we sucked, it was true when we were elite, it was true when we had Webber/Vlade and the best team in the league, true when we had a 50 win team led by Bibby/Peja, true when we were led by Ron, and true when we were led by Kmart. We will NEVER be a destination for big time free agents.

Perhaps we can get a third star via trade or the draft (Geoff has done that many times), but I seriously doubt our gobbs of cap space will be used for anything other than signing some quality role players and preparing to lock up key guys like Reke, DMC, Landry, etc.. down the line.

I would rather see us build a great team, led by Reke, with a complimentary star in DMC, and be surrounded by a bunch of good role players (JT, Landry, Garcia, Greene, Caspi, Beno). But, if a super team works out, and you have LBJ, Bosh, Wade, and then they get surrounded by elite role players willing to play for less (Ilguaskas, haslem, Miller, etc...) our great team is unlikely to win. Hell. if Miami gels, and this super team works out, they will be near impossible to beat. The one thing they had going against them was that they had no depth. If great role players are willing to go there for nothing, and it works out, and then other stars like CP3, Howard, Melo, etc... realize the only way to a championship is to do the same thing, we are screwed...
I've proposed fixes to keep the Heat from standing on the top of the NBA year after year. I agree that something needs to be done to restore a competitive balance in the NBA.

I disagree with the idea that the Kings can't ever be a free agent destination. Sure, it hasn't been a consideration in years past, but we've never had cap space and been a contender. When that happens and we still get spurned, then we can talk. But we just don't know. What we have done is execute sign-and-trade deals to bolster our roster, i.e. Brad Miller in 2003. That was done with Miller's blessing. So it's not absolutely, 100% impossible for us to land a free agent.

Also, if Reke and DMC actually turned into a successful tandem and propelled the Kings into a top five team in the NBA, even give the Heat and Lakers and a potential NY Knicks superpower, you're telling me that if we had cap space and one of the best young cores in the NBA, no one would come play for us? First off, I think that's sort of defeatist. Secondly, players want to play for a winner. If the Hawks regress into a 35 win team (all evidence suggests that might happen this year), and Al Horford is available, you're telling me he'd turn down a chance to play for a contender just because we're a "cow town"? That's just a hypothetical, but all I'm saying is that if we have a two-headed monster and we need a third player to come via free agency, I'm not closing the book.

I'm also not convinced that it would even come to that. With cap space, we can trade for virtually anyone in the NBA, and we'll be $35 million under the cap next year. We also have four young players on our roster that could conceivably turn into that third option that we think we need: Donte, Omri, Landry and JT. Our free agency limitations might not matter in two years if our core grows the way we hope it will. In four years when Reke is a free agent, and in five years when DMC is a free agent, we might be the hottest team around. I'm not sold on this vision of impending doom just yet.