Is Chuck Hayes underutilized?

P

Prog

Bench
#1
#1
Whenever an opponent bigman is tearing it (e.g. DeAndre Jordan in the last preseason game being a prime example) I have to wonder why coach Malone doesn't use the Chuckwagon to put a stop to it. Past games show how clueless some of the league's best bigmen can become when they have to face Chuck. Now, I'm not saying he should play a lot of minutes, but he should be an obvious choice whenever JT's lack of consistency on D or PPat's usual softness are hurting us.

BTW, Cousins is too important on offense to sit him much when he's not defending very effectively (which is the common case). This is where his front-court partner should serve as a buffer, and no-one is better suited than Chuck to do it. Keep in mind that the number of teams with intimidating bigs on offense is low, so if you're thinking about JT's or PPat's minutes, you have nothing to worry about.

Thoughts?
 
Hadlowe

Hadlowe

Starter
#2
#2
Hayes is a problem. He is a plus defender against a fairly rare skillset, good post-up bigmen. He is a liability on offense and his height keeps him from being a consistently good rebounder, although he works very hard at it. Against Amare, Blake Griffin, or David Lee, 20 ppg bigs who play terrible defense themselves, he is a decent bench option to shut those guys down on a game by game basis.

Against a guy like David West, though, he presents a problem. West is a solid defender in his own right. Having Hayes on the floor means that West isn't going to score as much against you, but he is free to cheat off Hayes and clog up the paint against Cousins. Patterson drags that help defense away from the paint and makes it easier for Cousins to do his work. Hayes is worse than useless against tall shooters like Marc Gasol or Bosh as he isn't tall enough to bother their mid-range shots.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#3
#3
Yes. This is why I felt starting him makes a ton of sense. You use him the same way OKC uses Thabo Sefolosha. He gets 5-7 minutes at the start of the game to D up the other teams best post player. It keeps Boogie from early foul trouble and he can focus on getting his much needed offense going early.

Hayes is not worse than useless agaisnt tall shooters like Gasol or Bosh. He actually defends those guys extremely well as they have no chance of gaining position on Hayes. As far as closing out shooters, Hayes allowed 0.79 PPP and an opponent FG of 36%. Both numbers are outstanding.

Hayes problem has never been defense, but doing other stuff to justify him being on the floor. He's been a below negative offensive player for us and a below average rebounder. Combine that with his lack of height and it is no wonder he produced the numbers he did.

However, if he gives us similar production in the preseason along with his defense, then we have ourselves a unique player and valuable on our team (one who is good at defense). His rebounding was outstanding (11.6 Rebounds/36) and he was very efficient in the few shot attempts he took. I still think you play the match-up game mostly, but I think Hayes makes us better when he's able to be matched up with a starting post player than off the bench
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#4
#4
Here is the difficulty, I have alluded to this before, but I'll use Chuck to flush out the idea:

PPat is the wrong fit next to Cousins
Hayes is the wrong fit next to Cousins
JT would be the right fit next to Cousins is he was a better defender, but he's not

Almost all of the great centers of the semi-modern era inevitiably get paired with a particular style of PF. That PF normally has these traits:

1) tough as nails, even mean or dirty
2) stout defender and rebounder
3) face up jumpshooter

And you can just go through the great centers and find variations on that archetype again and again. Rambis and Green next to Kareem. Thorpe next to Hakeem. Oakley, PJ Brown, Haslem, Horace Grant, Antonio Davis etc. etc.

Before getting to how our guys fit those traits, I must mention the one obvious additional trait that makes our search so difficult: Cousisn is not a shotblocker. Almost all of the great centers have been, so they could anchor their defenses. Cousins can't. So we need:

4) shotblocking

Which begins to make for a rare bird indeed. There you have Larry Nance perhaps next to Daugherty, the Davis brothers next to Smits. Duncna when he came in next to Admiral. Its not unprecedented, but its a toughie.

Anyway:

PPat actually may not have any of the prototypical 4 traits, but he can obviously fill the #3 category, and then some with his stretchness.
Hayes has some of #1, #2, but none of the #3, which is just such a critical flaw for him, and obviously no chance at #4. If he's out there the other team can literally double poor Cuz big/big
JT fills #3 and part of #2, and thing with him is it just SEEMS like he should be able to be more. He's got the size, mobility, good attitude. Why isn't he a full #2? Why's he got to be so nice he can't fill the #1 role? But he can't/doesn't.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#5
#5
Well I think we have the coach that will be able to utilize Hayes to his strengths. I don't think Hayes has been underutilized but he hasn't been utilized correctly either.

Hayes can shut down any big man in the game. If you post up on him 1 on 1, you're basically taking your chances with a 25% shot. If you face him up, he's going to slap the ball out of your hands or stay in front of you until you pass it off. He is as lock down of a defender as we've ever had. But like you guys said, he presents many problems on the other side of the court.

I think Malone will bring Hayes in with the starters in some situations where guys like Gasol or Randolph are going off on Cousins and Patterson/Thompson. If Hayes can lock down a high scoring big man on one side of the court, then it more than makes up for what he lacks on offense.

Like Brick said, the team isn't built correctly. You build around Cousins. With a player who has opposite, yet complimentary skills. Dalembert was perfect. Could defend the C or PF positions, block shots, rebound, pass and knock down 13ft jumpers.

As of right now Chuck is not utilized correctly defensively off the bench because there aren't many solid big men riding the bench these days. He's better utilized offensively off the bench because like you said, guys aren't going to sag off of him to double team Thompson too often. He's sort of stuck in no mans land but I think if anyone can utilize his defense, it'll be Malone.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#6
#6
Would you unlock that first rounder Cleveland has semi rights to tied along with Salmons for Anderson Varajao? Better question is would the Cavs be receptive to that offer?
 
jalfa

jalfa

Starter
#7
#7
Bricklayer said:
4) shotblocking

Which begins to make for a rare bird indeed. There you have Larry Nance perhaps next to Daugherty, the Davis brothers next to Smits. Duncna when he came in next to Admiral. Its not unprecedented, but its a toughie.
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Rasheed? would make for one hell of a fun frontcourt, at any rate.
 
A

AL/kfan

G-League
#9
#9
Say what you will about the chuckwagon but he rarely hurts us when he's out on the floor. Yes he is shorter than we would like and yes he is not a shot blocker or an offensive force but, he can hang on with most of the Big’s, has great hands and looks to make the pass first. I would use him exactly how Malone is utilizing him and hang on until the F0 somehow, somewhere finds a legitimate big.
 
C

Cold

Guest
#10
#10
Prog said:
Whenever an opponent bigman is tearing it (e.g. DeAndre Jordan in the last preseason game being a prime example) I have to wonder why coach Malone doesn't use the Chuckwagon to put a stop to it. Past games show how clueless some of the league's best bigmen can become when they have to face Chuck. Now, I'm not saying he should play a lot of minutes, but he should be an obvious choice whenever JT's lack of consistency on D or PPat's usual softness are hurting us.

BTW, Cousins is too important on offense to sit him much when he's not defending very effectively (which is the common case). This is where his front-court partner should serve as a buffer, and no-one is better suited than Chuck to do it. Keep in mind that the number of teams with intimidating bigs on offense is low, so if you're thinking about JT's or PPat's minutes, you have nothing to worry about.

Thoughts?
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He's over utilized. I'm all for the Kings sending him packing. No offense to Hayes, great guy, great teammate, but players like Hayes if getting minutes are what set the Kings back all these years.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#11
#11
Cold said:
He's over utilized. I'm all for the Kings sending him packing. No offense to Hayes, great guy, great teammate, but players like Hayes if getting minutes are what set the Kings back all these years.
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No, shyster owners and clownish coaches are what primarily set the Kings back all these years. Take those away and remove the shackles from Geoff Petrie, and our player acquisitions most likely would have been much different.
 
CruzDude

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#12
#12
Hayes has more than held his own with starting and backup centers. His talent is keeping post players and down low bigs away from the basket. Just watch him play. All of a sudden the other center is half way out to the 3 line or up near the top of the key. Kinda hard to work the rim from there. His size and lack of lateral quickness keep him from guarding PF away from the basket. If the Kings had a true protector of the rim (maybe thats what N'Dyaie could become in 1-2 years. Remember how bad Dikembo was his first couple years in the NBA? Then he did ok), he could get aggressive playing out a bit. But Chuckwagons real benefit is keeping bigs out of their comfort zone and hustling for rebounds.

There is no one else available who can do it better than Chuckwagon right now. So lets go with what works, for now. In the Team scheme of things Malone is putting together, Hayes has his role. If he does it (keeping bigs farther out than they want) then the others can take advantage in their defensive schemes. Now the 5 on the floor are more important than any one player. All have their + and minuses. Coach has to develop ways to take advantage of the various odd pluses and how to work around the minuses. Chuckwagon fits into a role. Lets ride it out awhile to see how well it works. JT and PPat don't do what Hayes can. Then we're out of bigs.
 
S

sdballer

Starter
#13
#13
CruzDude said:
If the Kings had a true protector of the rim (maybe thats what N'Dyaie could become in 1-2 years. Remember how bad Dikembo was his first couple years in the NBA? Then he did ok).
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Not to sidetrack the chuckwagon topic, but Dikembe was a beast and all-star from his first year on.

Rookie season: 16.6 points, 12 rpg, 3 bpg
 
C

Cold

Guest
#14
#14
VF21 said:
No, shyster owners and clownish coaches are what primarily set the Kings back all these years. Take those away and remove the shackles from Geoff Petrie, and our player acquisitions most likely would have been much different.
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Direct, indirect effects. Same difference bro. Players like Hayes are not difference makers. He is what he is, a piece that is easily replaceable and is better suited on teams with established success and just need to fill small holes. The Kings need to focus on developing young talents and acquiring more young talent in hope they pan out. I would much rather we give minutes to young players.
 
jalfa

jalfa

Starter
#20
#20
ShastaKingsFan said:
Demarcus Cousins with Rasheed Wallace? Are you OK? o_O LOL
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game-wise those two in their prime would complement each other perfectly. psychology-wise is where the fun part would come in. they'd be a great duo for the 20 minutes per game they could stay on the court before getting ejected. similar dynamic to a potential Cousins/Sanders pairing, only slightly more combustile and slightly easier to play alongside one another.
 
CruzDude

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#21
#21
Cold said:
Direct, indirect effects. Same difference bro. Players like Hayes are not difference makers. He is what he is, a piece that is easily replaceable and is better suited on teams with established success and just need to fill small holes. The Kings need to focus on developing young talents and acquiring more young talent in hope they pan out. I would much rather we give minutes to young players.
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Give minutes to young bigs to back up Cuz such as......?
 
C

Cold

Guest
#22
#22
CruzDude said:
Give minutes to young bigs to back up Cuz such as......?
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Such as a young center prospect or two with potential who would have been here if Chuck wasn't here. A severely undersized center with no potential like Chuck Hayes is not a difference maker, now or in the future. No risk no reward players like Chuck Hayes are not what a team looking to turn things around needs, especially considering he plays the 5.
 
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E

ESP47

All-Star
#23
#23
Cold said:
Such as a young center prospect or two with potential who would have been here if Chuck wasn't here. A severely undersized center with no potential like Chuck Hayes is not a difference maker, now or in the future. No risk no reward players like Chuck Hayes are not what a team looking to turn things around needs, especially considering he plays the 5.
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Someone's gotta play defense here and it aint Cousins, Patterson or Thompson. Young center prospects can really mess up the teams play on the court. You've seen what Hamady N'Diaye can do on the court. He can block a shot in spectacular fashion and then immediately give up 2 easy scoring plays, drop a soft pass right on his hands and then offensive goal tend his own player. These guys either have it or they don't. There aren't many super goofy 7ft players that look terrible their first couple years and then all the sudden turn it on. Look at Aldrich. He just barely became serviceable but he's still stuck as one of the last men on the bench no matter where he goes. These guys get into the league based on size alone and then they can only hope to develop solid basketball skills. Normally that just does not happen.

Chuck isn't the perfect fit for this team but he's better than what we could get off the scrap heap.
 
King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#25
#25
sdballer said:
Not to sidetrack the chuckwagon topic, but Dikembe was a beast and all-star from his first year on.

Rookie season: 16.6 points, 12 rpg, 3 bpg
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So I went and checked Dikembe's stats - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mutomdi01.html And it is true, Mutumbo was a hammer from the start. One thing that caught my eye is that his NBA career began at age 25. I'm not saying N'Dyaie is another Mutumbo but he is 26 years old. Both these guys started playing basketball much later in life. Maybe N'Dyaie can provide some goalie style defense in a backup role. If he is coming off the bench with IT he won't see the ball much anyway:)

KB
 
King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#26
#26
ESP47 said:
Someone's gotta play defense here and it aint Cousins, Patterson or Thompson. Young center prospects can really mess up the teams play on the court. You've seen what Hamady N'Diaye can do on the court. He can block a shot in spectacular fashion and then immediately give up 2 easy scoring plays, drop a soft pass right on his hands and then offensive goal tend his own player. These guys either have it or they don't. There aren't many super goofy 7ft players that look terrible their first couple years and then all the sudden turn it on. Look at Aldrich. He just barely became serviceable but he's still stuck as one of the last men on the bench no matter where he goes. These guys get into the league based on size alone and then they can only hope to develop solid basketball skills. Normally that just does not happen.

Chuck isn't the perfect fit for this team but he's better than what we could get off the scrap heap.
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Agreed. Chuck is not our collective prototype Big but the man can play defense. He checks Big Centers better than any other player on the Kings.

KB
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#30
#30
blackice said:
What Chuck Hayes is is overpaid. Epic fail Geoff Petrie.
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Yeah, but like many of Petrie fails, it just seems like it didn't pan out due happenstance. I don't remember many saying anything about the contract when he signed. He was looked as a solid big that was a good lockerroom guy as I recall. But maybe I'm wrong here
 
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