Grantland (Bill and Jalen) Kings Preview

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#31
Well then it's obvious PDA was trying to both appease the boss and make the team better. In the end, he was only able to appease the boss, right?
Ever since that video came out people have been working pretty hard to spin it as "owner bullies basketball operations folks into taking his pick". But it's all based on some very speculative reading between the lines. There is so vastly much more that went on in the war room leading up to the draft that we don't know about than the tiny bit that we've seen on tape. Maybe PDA said that Payton was the best player in the draft over and over again, and Vivek went against his hand-picked people and ordered up Stauskas. Maybe Vivek had no idea who to like, and got wholly sold on Stauskas by the basketball operations people to the point that when Stauskas was available, he was giddy as a schoolboy - "I say Stauskas! You guys all say Stauskas, right?" (Well, of course, if that's what they'd been saying all along.)

The point is that we simply don't know. Again, the assertion that the Kings tried to get another pick to acquire Payton could potentially indicate that the basketball operations folks were after Payton and were trying to rectify their owner's meddling, OR it could indicate that even though Stauskas was a higher target, they also valued Payton. Maybe they had been trying to line up a second pick in the draft since long before, knowing that there were two guys they were after. In fact, the latter would seem a bit more likely than this: "Gee boss, now that you overruled our desired selection of Payton, we're going to try to get another pick in the draft so we can get the guy we really wanted and fix your screw-up." I mean, that's not going to go over well.

The Kings employed Sim Freaking Bhullar. Vivek is running part of the show, at the very least.
They also cut him, which is at least some indication that basketball trumps the pet projects of the owner.
 
#32
Is that fair to say? I liked Elfrid too, but to say the team did not get better by drafting Nik because Vivek wanted him is not correct IMO.

If you don't like Vivek's involvement take a step back and consider this. What did the Maloofs do on draft day?:eek::eek::eek:
You underestimate my ability to read PDA's mind and interpret his intentions based on a video clip.
 
#33
Ever since that video came out people have been working pretty hard to spin it as "owner bullies basketball operations folks into taking his pick". But it's all based on some very speculative reading between the lines. There is so vastly much more that went on in the war room leading up to the draft that we don't know about than the tiny bit that we've seen on tape. Maybe PDA said that Payton was the best player in the draft over and over again, and Vivek went against his hand-picked people and ordered up Stauskas. Maybe Vivek had no idea who to like, and got wholly sold on Stauskas by the basketball operations people to the point that when Stauskas was available, he was giddy as a schoolboy - "I say Stauskas! You guys all say Stauskas, right?" (Well, of course, if that's what they'd been saying all along.)

The point is that we simply don't know. Again, the assertion that the Kings tried to get another pick to acquire Payton could potentially indicate that the basketball operations folks were after Payton and were trying to rectify their owner's meddling, OR it could indicate that even though Stauskas was a higher target, they also valued Payton. Maybe they had been trying to line up a second pick in the draft since long before, knowing that there were two guys they were after. In fact, the latter would seem a bit more likely than this: "Gee boss, now that you overruled our desired selection of Payton, we're going to try to get another pick in the draft so we can get the guy we really wanted and fix your screw-up." I mean, that's not going to go over well.



They also cut him, which is at least some indication that basketball trumps the pet projects of the owner.
My comments were made in jest. But I think at the very least, Vivek standing front a center in the war room taking a head count, left the door open for people to speculate.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#34
Right. What we wanted at the PG spot was a pass first guy. Add the fact that we needed perimeter D and it made sense as a pick. I can't predict how good Payton will be, but he fit the profile. Stauskus was redundant.
So far in the preseason Payton has 37 assists and 25 turnovers. That's a 1.48:1 assist/turnover ratio. And that's very much in line with his stats from college. Last year he had a 1.52 assist to turnover ratio. For reference Collison has been 3:1 (30 and 10) and Sessions has been 2.36:1 (26 and 11)

He's also shot just at 40% (16/40) in 6 preseason games including taking just 4 three pointers and making one of them. I was a huge proponent of Payton but I acknowledged that he was not going to be a major contributor right away. He's a couple years out. His shot isn't just bad, it's broken and he is too careless with the ball. And while he's a pass first guy with good vision right now his style is much more about having the ball in his hands and creating whereas what Malone clearly wants is for the offense to get initiated quickly, often by having the PG give up the ball right after crossing mid court, if not by passing it up from the backcourt.

Payton could be a very good PG long term. Stauskas is a good shooter and good ball handler (as a SG) right now. He also makes the right basketball play more often than not. If the team is looking to win now then Stauskas is a better pick.
 
#35
Ever since that video came out people have been working pretty hard to spin it as "owner bullies basketball operations folks into taking his pick". But it's all based on some very speculative reading between the lines. There is so vastly much more that went on in the war room leading up to the draft that we don't know about than the tiny bit that we've seen on tape. Maybe PDA said that Payton was the best player in the draft over and over again, and Vivek went against his hand-picked people and ordered up Stauskas. Maybe Vivek had no idea who to like, and got wholly sold on Stauskas by the basketball operations people to the point that when Stauskas was available, he was giddy as a schoolboy - "I say Stauskas! You guys all say Stauskas, right?" (Well, of course, if that's what they'd been saying all along.)

The point is that we simply don't know. Again, the assertion that the Kings tried to get another pick to acquire Payton could potentially indicate that the basketball operations folks were after Payton and were trying to rectify their owner's meddling, OR it could indicate that even though Stauskas was a higher target, they also valued Payton. Maybe they had been trying to line up a second pick in the draft since long before, knowing that there were two guys they were after. In fact, the latter would seem a bit more likely than this: "Gee boss, now that you overruled our desired selection of Payton, we're going to try to get another pick in the draft so we can get the guy we really wanted and fix your screw-up." I mean, that's not going to go over well..

This is all very true. And to add to it, we have no idea how much of that was just putting on a little show for the cameras....
 
#36
So far in the preseason Payton has 37 assists and 25 turnovers. That's a 1.48:1 assist/turnover ratio. And that's very much in line with his stats from college. Last year he had a 1.52 assist to turnover ratio. For reference Collison has been 3:1 (30 and 10) and Sessions has been 2.36:1 (26 and 11)

He's also shot just at 40% (16/40) in 6 preseason games including taking just 4 three pointers and making one of them. I was a huge proponent of Payton but I acknowledged that he was not going to be a major contributor right away. He's a couple years out. His shot isn't just bad, it's broken and he is too careless with the ball. And while he's a pass first guy with good vision right now his style is much more about having the ball in his hands and creating whereas what Malone clearly wants is for the offense to get initiated quickly, often by having the PG give up the ball right after crossing mid court, if not by passing it up from the backcourt.

Payton could be a very good PG long term. Stauskas is a good shooter and good ball handler (as a SG) right now. He also makes the right basketball play more often than not. If the team is looking to win now then Stauskas is a better pick.
What I don't understand is the notion that Nik will help us win now as a rookie.

Being judged by wins and losses means that the coaches and FO will be held accountable for getting most out of player's and improving team. Win now means going all out to get to the playoffs and compete for a title. If we were in win now mode, we would have traded our lottery pick for a vet. Nik was drafted for what he can become (Klay Thompson per Malone). Even the number 1 pick in a draft isn't expected to put a team over the top in the first year. Wiggins was traded by a team that is win now mode. Nik was not a win now pick.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#37
What I don't understand is the notion that Nik will help us win now as a rookie.

Being judged by wins and losses means that the coaches and FO will be held accountable for getting most out of player's and improving team. Win now means going all out to get to the playoffs and compete for a title. If we were in win now mode, we would have traded our lottery pick for a vet. Nik was drafted for what he can become (Klay Thompson per Malone). Even the number 1 pick in a draft isn't expected to put a team over the top in the first year. Wiggins was traded by a team that is win now mode. Nik was not a win now pick.
Because Nik gives the team a consistent shooter on the wing to space the floor. He may (and hopefully will) become significantly more than that, but for now he's a kid that will hopefully punish teams for double teaming Cuz and Rudy by shooting 40% or better on catch-and-shoot threes.

There were essentially two bonafide shooters in this last draft in Stauskas and McDermott (some might make a claim for CJ Wilcox or Rodney Hood being in the discussion but I don't think they are on the same level) and Stauskas had the added advantages of being a SG and not a SF (where he'd have to play behind Rudy) and adding passing and ball handling to a team that needed more of both.

Watching McLemore and Stauskas play in college it was obvious to me (and probably most other hoops junkies) that the former was more of a project with an higher upside and the latter was more ready to contribute as a rookie but without as high of a ceiling. Barring injury Stauskas should have a long NBA career just as a shooter the same way Korver has. If he becomes a poor man's Klay Thompson (or even an equivalent level player) then the Kings really did well in drafting him.

Could the Kings have gotten more immediate help by trading the pick for a veteran? Sure. And right after the lottery they basically said the pick was up for grabs and yet on draft night they hadn't moved up, down or out of the draft.

So to me I'm just having a discussion based on your initial statement that Payton fit the profile of what the Kings needed and Stauskas was/is redundant. Just looking between Payton and Stauskas, it's Nik that will most likely help the team more THIS year.
 
#38
Nik will be able to help us now and in the future more than Peyton. We don't need a ball dominate pg that can't shoot that hurts us and makes us easy to guard. How much spacing do you get with Peyton shooting under 30% and Gay who shoots under 36%. We would need an elite shooter at SG/PF to ever be a contender. Now Stauskas will provide us with elite shooting while being a very good passer which fits into our/any system. Another reason is you don't need a elite pg to win a ring especially when you have Boogie/Gay. 3point shooting is a must and we had none you don't win games without it.
 
#39
Because Nik gives the team a consistent shooter on the wing to space the floor. He may (and hopefully will) become significantly more than that, but for now he's a kid that will hopefully punish teams for double teaming Cuz and Rudy by shooting 40% or better on catch-and-shoot threes.

There were essentially two bonafide shooters in this last draft in Stauskas and McDermott (some might make a claim for CJ Wilcox or Rodney Hood being in the discussion but I don't think they are on the same level) and Stauskas had the added advantages of being a SG and not a SF (where he'd have to play behind Rudy) and adding passing and ball handling to a team that needed more of both.

Watching McLemore and Stauskas play in college it was obvious to me (and probably most other hoops junkies) that the former was more of a project with an higher upside and the latter was more ready to contribute as a rookie but without as high of a ceiling. Barring injury Stauskas should have a long NBA career just as a shooter the same way Korver has. If he becomes a poor man's Klay Thompson (or even an equivalent level player) then the Kings really did well in drafting him.

Could the Kings have gotten more immediate help by trading the pick for a veteran? Sure. And right after the lottery they basically said the pick was up for grabs and yet on draft night they hadn't moved up, down or out of the draft.

So to me I'm just having a discussion based on your initial statement that Payton fit the profile of what the Kings needed and Stauskas was/is redundant. Just looking between Payton and Stauskas, it's Nik that will most likely help the team more THIS year.
It's harder to learn the pg position than SG so I'll give you that. But my point is we are not winning this year. Stauskus isn't changing that. So take the guy with the most talent at position of need that will begin to blossom when that shiny arena opens.

Yes we need shooters. But they can be found. We drafted Jimmer who was a shooter who could pass we were told and could create his own shot we were told. Didn't work out and low and behold, we find another shooter who can pass and create his own shot.

You have to take a PG or C with star potential when it's there because they are so hard to find. In the NFL you don't pass on a QB for a RB when you need both. You draft the position that can turn around your franchise in a couple of years.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#40
As I said, I was stumping for Payton. And I was thinking NEXT season would be where the Kings look to make a move. But the current ownership/FO decided to make their push now. I was hoping Ben (and maybe some change) would be dealt to pick up a second draft pick to nab Payton. But it didn't happen.

That said, I don't think Payton has star potential. I think he has a higher ceiling than Stauskas but he would need to completely rebuild his shot from the ground up to be a good shooter and so I think he tops out as a poor man's Rondo. Poor man's because he lacks Rondo's rebounding and I'm not sure he has the same drive to win as Rajon.

And Stauskas isn't Jimmer. Fredette was a tweener who was a SG in style but a PG in size. Stauskas is a legit 6'6" shooting guard who faced every type of defense last season and still found a way to score. Guys bodied him up, tried to be physical, tried to force him to his left and he just handled his business. He has better handles at SG than Jimmer had as a PG and he played a higher level of competition in college.

Honestly I'm not upset at all with the Stauskas pick. But it does highlight that Ben McLemore had a terrible rookie season.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#41
What I don't understand is the notion that Nik will help us win now as a rookie.

Being judged by wins and losses means that the coaches and FO will be held accountable for getting most out of player's and improving team. Win now means going all out to get to the playoffs and compete for a title. If we were in win now mode, we would have traded our lottery pick for a vet. Nik was drafted for what he can become (Klay Thompson per Malone). Even the number 1 pick in a draft isn't expected to put a team over the top in the first year. Wiggins was traded by a team that is win now mode. Nik was not a win now pick.
Cause unlike every SG we have had since Kevin Martin he understands how to play basketball and can shoot to go along with great confident s. Why wouldn't he help us?
 
#42
As I said, I was stumping for Payton. And I was thinking NEXT season would be where the Kings look to make a move. But the current ownership/FO decided to make their push now. I was hoping Ben (and maybe some change) would be dealt to pick up a second draft pick to nab Payton. But it didn't happen.

That said, I don't think Payton has star potential. I think he has a higher ceiling than Stauskas but he would need to completely rebuild his shot from the ground up to be a good shooter and so I think he tops out as a poor man's Rondo. Poor man's because he lacks Rondo's rebounding and I'm not sure he has the same drive to win as Rajon.

And Stauskas isn't Jimmer. Fredette was a tweener who was a SG in style but a PG in size. Stauskas is a legit 6'6" shooting guard who faced every type of defense last season and still found a way to score. Guys bodied him up, tried to be physical, tried to force him to his left and he just handled his business. He has better handles at SG than Jimmer had as a PG and he played a higher level of competition in college.

Honestly I'm not upset at all with the Stauskas pick. But it does highlight that Ben McLemore had a terrible rookie season.
Orlando fans are high on Payton after watching him in preseason. They see him as possible ROY. Grantland sees him as possible ROY. I don't project Payton as a superstar, but I can see him pushing for all star down the road.

Listen, I know I'm not going to win any friends because I'm not riding as high on Nik as some on the board. People were upset with me when I said drafting Jimmer was a mistake too. Blew me off as not knowing what I was talking about. Told me that I just didn't understand that he can play pg and is the best shooter in the draft and he's ready NOW. I'm just calling it as I see it, not how I want it to be.

I don't think Nik is Jimmer. I happen to think Nik is a legit NBA player, but Jimmer is not because he lacks a position. Nik also gets his shot off quicker, which makes all the difference in the world. My point was that a starting PG is harder to find than a shooter.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#44
Orlando fans are high on Payton after watching him in preseason. They see him as possible ROY. Grantland sees him as possible ROY. I don't project Payton as a superstar, but I can see him pushing for all star down the road.

Listen, I know I'm not going to win any friends because I'm not riding as high on Nik as some on the board. People were upset with me when I said drafting Jimmer was a mistake too. Blew me off as not knowing what I was talking about. Told me that I just didn't understand that he can play pg and is the best shooter in the draft and he's ready NOW. I'm just calling it as I see it, not how I want it to be.

I don't think Nik is Jimmer. I happen to think Nik is a legit NBA player, but Jimmer is not because he lacks a position. Nik also gets his shot off quicker, which makes all the difference in the world. My point was that a starting PG is harder to find than a shooter.
Not really when you consider the majority of the world that plays basketball is roughly a PG's size therefore the talent pool for the PG is massive and the league is STACKED with quality/elite PG's we have just been unlucky/stupid in not being able to draft/land one. The lack of quality SG's suggests it's much harder to find a quality SG than it is a quality PG.
 
#45
Not really when you consider the majority of the world that plays basketball is roughly a PG's size therefore the talent pool for the PG is massive and the league is STACKED with quality/elite PG's we have just been unlucky/stupid in not being able to draft/land one. The lack of quality SG's suggests it's much harder to find a quality SG than it is a quality PG.
And in the days of AAU it's hard to find one that can shoot, pass, high IQ, and plays team ball.
 
#46
Did we really compare Nik to Jimmer again? *sigh*

This pick has gone now, I do remember a lot of bemusement about us not picking Vonleh at the time as well.... that noise hasn't gotten louder I notice.

Payton was like that late rising chic pick that all the "analysts" jumped on, he's got an interesting skill set I'm sure he'll be a good player but oh well....

the season hasn't even started yet... all the prospects are basically as advertised at the moment and will probably continue to be.
 
#47
Did we really compare Nik to Jimmer again? *sigh*

This pick has gone now, I do remember a lot of bemusement about us not picking Vonleh at the time as well.... that noise hasn't gotten louder I notice.

Payton was like that late rising chic pick that all the "analysts" jumped on, he's got an interesting skill set I'm sure he'll be a good player but oh well....

the season hasn't even started yet... all the prospects are basically as advertised at the moment and will probably continue to be.
The camparisons I made to Jimmer are apropo based on my experiences on this forum. He's a part of our recent history and all players are compared to others. It's what fans do.

But you're right. The pick is gone and time will tell.
 
#48
Not really when you consider the majority of the world that plays basketball is roughly a PG's size therefore the talent pool for the PG is massive and the league is STACKED with quality/elite PG's we have just been unlucky/stupid in not being able to draft/land one. The lack of quality SG's suggests it's much harder to find a quality SG than it is a quality PG.
The league is stacked with guys who have SG skill sets but have been given PG duties because the traditional PG is hard to find.
 
#49
The camparisons I made to Jimmer are apropo based on my experiences on this forum. He's a part of our recent history and all players are compared to others. It's what fans do.

But you're right. The pick is gone and time will tell.
I'm not just picking on you btw, but thats obviously not true.
 
#50
On the BS Report, Zach Lowe was talking about DeMarcus Cousins and the Kings visit on China. He said something about league officials sending him emails stating: '(...)I have never been around a worse guy in the NBA.'


The thing he says about DMC: 33:32

I know it's just Zach Lowe saying this, a guy who's only writing negative stuff, when writing about the Kings, but if even part of this is true...sigh...
 
#51
"He almost punched a guy in the FIBA world cup, he literally cocked"

oh please, that is a flat out lie, it was obviously meant as an intimidation move and nothing more, he was never going to actually hit him.
 
#52
On the BS Report, Zach Lowe was talking about DeMarcus Cousins and the Kings visit on China. He said something about league officials sending him emails stating: '(...)I have never been around a worse guy in the NBA.'


The thing he says about DMC: 33:32

I know it's just Zach Lowe saying this, a guy who's only writing negative stuff, when writing about the Kings, but if even part of this is true...sigh...
meh. "league sources," huh? i'd absolutely take that with a grain of salt. in the last year, zach lowe has been forced to begrudgingly admit to demarcus' undeniable improvement across the board. he works for grantland, bill simmons is his boss, and simmons f***ing loves boogie. i think it gets under lowe's skin a bit. he's a smart guy, with a top-notch analytical mind for the game. but smart guys also don't like to be wrong, and it seems to me that he's going to continue to look for every opportunity to undermine boogie that he can find...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#53
Ignoring the Lowe factor, well as much as it can be ignored -- he's kinda crossed the line a bit at some point into dishonesty -- Anyway, I want people to consider for a moment, so he claims to have received several emails from "league officials" in China saying Boogie will never be an All Star because he's the worst guy they've been around in the NBA.

Consider for a moment who exactly was in China.

Kings officials (who you can assume didn't do it)
Nets officials.
PAUL WESTPHAL
SOME REFEREES
not sure how many low level trip coordinator types

anything jump out at you about that list as a likely source for Boogie hatred? That is even if you believe that suddenly several people started emailing Zach Lowe about 1 of his 33 predictions in a random article even though its something that many other people have been saying this preseason.
 
#54
It's funny that they said the refs won't let Demarcus makeup for past behavior even if he turns himself around. Yet Zach is doing the same thing to Demarcus and even worse as he's continuing to perpetuate the bad guy image.
 
#56
I like DeMarcus a lot. Would it surprise me if 'NBA Officials' hated him? hell no.

I care about this to a certain degree because it largely depends on where the information came from. That is information we simply don't have.

Who said it? how many people actually said it? what, exactly, are those people referring to? We don't know.

I believe Adam Silver was also in China. I don't think it was him, but that tells me that it could have been anyone. It was a big trip. If the commissioner was there, I can only imagine who else was.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#57
I like DeMarcus a lot. Would it surprise me if 'NBA Officials' hated him? hell no.

I care about this to a certain degree because it largely depends on where the information came from. That is information we simply don't have.

Who said it? how many people actually said it? what, exactly, are those people referring to? We don't know.

I believe Adam Silver was also in China. I don't think it was him, but that tells me that it could have been anyone. It was a big trip. If the commissioner was there, I can only imagine who else was.
Well, again assuming there was anybody of note, under Lowe's own slime it would have to be somebody with considerable Boogie experience. Or else somebody talking out of their ass -- but then if that were true why would somebody talking out of their ass care enough to, during a trip in China, take the time to email Zach Lowe about a random article he wrote? No, if its not a flat fabrication it would have to be somebody invested to do something like that. Somebody with a Boogie history.
 
#58
There's absolutely no context either, does he mean observations of him in China, or like above, having worked with him as a professional, a teammate, a coach.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#59
More likely scenario:

10/15 (or whatever)
grantland.com article:

Point #19 (or whatever) -- Believe it or not Boogie Cousins might make an All Star team

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

10/16
To: PWestphal@bnets.com (Paul Westphal)
From: ZLowe@grantland.com

Paul,

I just predicted that Boogie Cousins might make the All Star team this year in my article 33 Random Things (or whatever). I feel dirty. You coached him -- do you think that's a real possibility?

-- Zach

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10/17 (or whatever)
To: ZLowe@grantland.com (Zach Lowe)
From: PWestphal@bnets.com

**** that ****.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
#60
Not sure if it belongs in this thread, but will our home opener sell out? I have a slight feeling that it won't because of the ticket prices. Or if it does, it'll mostly be warrior fans.

Pete will be in the hot seat if the team doesn't start winning.. no one wants to attend a sucky team, but it also feels like the prices went up as soon as the new reign came in.