Charges taken, is it a stat?
- Thread starter King Baller
- Start date
Call me crazy, but I don't want my 6'11 280lb center taking charges. I want him to use his 9'5" standing reach to impede shots and come away with some well timed blocks.
If we want to get charges taken, we also need attempted charges, as the failed attempts usually result in blocking fouls. One area he needs to get better at is not fouling. And when you have the rep that DMC has, the 50/50 charge/block calls aren't going your way. He needs to find ways to stay on the court longer. Staying big and straight will help him in the long run, not falling down when a 180lb guard runs into him.
If we want to get charges taken, we also need attempted charges, as the failed attempts usually result in blocking fouls. One area he needs to get better at is not fouling. And when you have the rep that DMC has, the 50/50 charge/block calls aren't going your way. He needs to find ways to stay on the court longer. Staying big and straight will help him in the long run, not falling down when a 180lb guard runs into him.
DMC is a ground bound beast. He does block shots but he's not being dumb by preferring to take charges rather than attempting to block.
When you're a ground bound player, in NBA, most athletes always jumps higher than you and even throws the ball that peaks at high arcs.
So it's a more effective option for big Cuz to take charges. And he's could be leading the NBA on that, which means it's a tool that he has mastered.
Don't be fooled in thinking that because DMC gets a lot of offensive, it should not be difficult for him to block shots.
In getting rebounds, DMC can always use his wide body to create space. But when blocking shots you can only use your fingertips.
When you're a ground bound player, in NBA, most athletes always jumps higher than you and even throws the ball that peaks at high arcs.
So it's a more effective option for big Cuz to take charges. And he's could be leading the NBA on that, which means it's a tool that he has mastered.
Don't be fooled in thinking that because DMC gets a lot of offensive, it should not be difficult for him to block shots.
In getting rebounds, DMC can always use his wide body to create space. But when blocking shots you can only use your fingertips.
Last year Cuz lead the league in charges taken. Yes this year his number was down but he was still up there.
But here's an interesting stat. Charges + Steals + blocks.
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2013&gp=40&mins=20
Cuz was at 2.45 last year and # 8 among centers. Ahead of Bosh, Chandler, Horford, Okafor, Perkins, Garnett.
Of those 3 only blocks don't guarantee a possession and guess which stat had the biggest impact on the players ahead of him?
Oh BTW, Cuz lead centers in steals at 1.46 pg and it really wasn't close.
But here's an interesting stat. Charges + Steals + blocks.
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=C&yr=2013&gp=40&mins=20
Cuz was at 2.45 last year and # 8 among centers. Ahead of Bosh, Chandler, Horford, Okafor, Perkins, Garnett.
Of those 3 only blocks don't guarantee a possession and guess which stat had the biggest impact on the players ahead of him?
Oh BTW, Cuz lead centers in steals at 1.46 pg and it really wasn't close.
DMC is a ground bound beast. He does block shots but he's not being dumb by preferring to take charges rather than attempting to block.
When you're a ground bound player, in NBA, most athletes always jumps higher than you and even throws the ball that peaks at high arcs.
So it's a more effective option for big Cuz to take charges. And he's could be leading the NBA on that, which means it's a tool that he has mastered.
Don't be fooled in thinking that because DMC gets a lot of offensive, it should not be difficult for him to block shots.
In getting rebounds, DMC can always use his wide body to create space. But when blocking shots you can only use your fingertips.
When you're a ground bound player, in NBA, most athletes always jumps higher than you and even throws the ball that peaks at high arcs.
So it's a more effective option for big Cuz to take charges. And he's could be leading the NBA on that, which means it's a tool that he has mastered.
Don't be fooled in thinking that because DMC gets a lot of offensive, it should not be difficult for him to block shots.
In getting rebounds, DMC can always use his wide body to create space. But when blocking shots you can only use your fingertips.
I'm not asking for him to abandon his charge taking ways altogether. I'm asking him to not neglect his ability to be big. He doesn't have to jump as high to have an impact. I just gave you his standing reach, which is one of the best in the NBA. He has length to bother shots and I'm looking for him to use that length. 0.7 blocks per game out of your starting center (who is supposed to be our savior) isn't gonna cut it unless Larry Sanders is the guy next to him.
Jumping, swiping, and trying to take charges all have a risk of fouling. That's why I said I wanted him to stay big. This doesn't mean he has to try and block everything. But if I'm scouting DMC for interior defense, I'm letting my guards know that he's always looking for the charge, so a floater or a step around will work on him because with his hands down he won't be in position to block or alter a shot.
Staying big means occupying your space and extending your arms straight up, not in an 80 degree angle like DMC and JT are prone to doing. They're trying to canopy the guy.
Staying big means occupying your space and extending your arms straight up, not in an 80 degree angle like DMC and JT are prone to doing. They're trying to canopy the guy.
I'll give it a go.
This stat is giving a charge the same weight as a block. However, defense extends beyond these three stats. A missed charge is now either a foul or an easy bucket because you have taken yourself out of a defensive stance. A missed block, however, can result in a foul or an altered shot. Altered shots are incredibly important to interior defense and they do not show up anywhere but opponent paint fg%. I don't think ours is very good.
A steal is good if successful. A missed steal, however, results in an overplay or a foul. When DMC swipes down at the ball and misses, his hands are down and the defender has an easy bucket. These aren't factored into any of these stats.
A guy who plays sound man defense, stays big, alters shots, rotates, and does not foul will be a good defensive player, right? These don't show up in that "def" stat. But it's defense. It's just not glamour defense. If you want these stats to mean something, you have to make them relative. That means that you need to track how often someone misses the steal and allows an open shot. You have to track how often someone plays a passing lane and overplays, which results in rotations and then an easy bucket. You have to track how often a guy defends the paint and if he ends up wiht a block, a foul, an altered basket, or an easy basket. You have to track how often a guy loses his own man in error and causes his teammates to compensate.
Even with blocking, you have to block smart. If you're constantly going for the block, you will get faked out. If you don't foul, but give up an easy shot, that won't show up on the stats. But if you're tall enough and bouncy enough, you'll eventually get your blocks. You just give up a lot in the process. So there's smart blocking and stat blocking.
We have efficiency metrics now, but basketball stats are still far behind the real game story in terms of defense.
This stat is giving a charge the same weight as a block. However, defense extends beyond these three stats. A missed charge is now either a foul or an easy bucket because you have taken yourself out of a defensive stance. A missed block, however, can result in a foul or an altered shot. Altered shots are incredibly important to interior defense and they do not show up anywhere but opponent paint fg%. I don't think ours is very good.
A steal is good if successful. A missed steal, however, results in an overplay or a foul. When DMC swipes down at the ball and misses, his hands are down and the defender has an easy bucket. These aren't factored into any of these stats.
A guy who plays sound man defense, stays big, alters shots, rotates, and does not foul will be a good defensive player, right? These don't show up in that "def" stat. But it's defense. It's just not glamour defense. If you want these stats to mean something, you have to make them relative. That means that you need to track how often someone misses the steal and allows an open shot. You have to track how often someone plays a passing lane and overplays, which results in rotations and then an easy bucket. You have to track how often a guy defends the paint and if he ends up wiht a block, a foul, an altered basket, or an easy basket. You have to track how often a guy loses his own man in error and causes his teammates to compensate.
Even with blocking, you have to block smart. If you're constantly going for the block, you will get faked out. If you don't foul, but give up an easy shot, that won't show up on the stats. But if you're tall enough and bouncy enough, you'll eventually get your blocks. You just give up a lot in the process. So there's smart blocking and stat blocking.
We have efficiency metrics now, but basketball stats are still far behind the real game story in terms of defense.
I get where people are coming from about Cousins not being a shot blocker. When a player is a shot blocking threat it also includes contesting shots and affecting the psychology of the opposing team. It forces the other team to make an adjustment because of the possibility of getting blocked. The overall impact is huge.
Cousins doesn't do this. HOWEVER, he is very good at drawing charges and getting steals. These two things take away possessions entirely. Also he and Tyreke are both very good at causing deflections.
Cousins doesn't do this. HOWEVER, he is very good at drawing charges and getting steals. These two things take away possessions entirely. Also he and Tyreke are both very good at causing deflections.
This is a superb post.
Cousins just needs to use his size and length and stay BIG. Don't gamble on the charge or the steal. Don't lose defensive positioning going for a block. Use the rule of verticality to your advantage to make players take tougher shots in the interior and watch as the opponent FG% drops.
To be honest I hope that what I'm seeing from the refs in how they approach Hibbert continues into next season. I've always been a bit critical of the refs because they don't seem to properly follow the rule of verticality which is simply...if a big man stays straight up (even while jumping straight up) and a guy in the lane draws contact with him, it's not a blocking foul. The refs haven't been calling Hibbert for those fouls in this play-offs, and it would be great if they continued to get that right for other players such as Cousins.
Cousins just needs to use his size and length and stay BIG. Don't gamble on the charge or the steal. Don't lose defensive positioning going for a block. Use the rule of verticality to your advantage to make players take tougher shots in the interior and watch as the opponent FG% drops.
To be honest I hope that what I'm seeing from the refs in how they approach Hibbert continues into next season. I've always been a bit critical of the refs because they don't seem to properly follow the rule of verticality which is simply...if a big man stays straight up (even while jumping straight up) and a guy in the lane draws contact with him, it's not a blocking foul. The refs haven't been calling Hibbert for those fouls in this play-offs, and it would be great if they continued to get that right for other players such as Cousins.
I love that Cuz takes charges, but for how many he takes, I just think you have to wonder after a certain point how much of a toll it takes on his body hitting the ground so many times. Now one thing about Cousins is that he stays relatively injury free which is so rare for a big man these days(another reason why he shouldn't be traded, ex. other threads). Just guessing here but I'd say he takes and/or attempts to take what 200 charges a year? That's 200 times his 6'11 270lb body hitting the floor, sometimes directly landing on his back. I think to extend his career it would be beneficial to try and work on blocking more shots. I'm not saying that he shouldn't ever take charges, because there are times where you absolutely have to take a charge.
Oh I don't disagree about plus/minuses to going for steals/charges/blocks. Every one has it's disadvantages. The difference is 10 out of 10 times if you get a steal or a charge you get the ball with blocks it could be 0 for 10 and they still get the basket. The only real advantage to blocks over the other is changing shots and keeping people out of the paint. But really, the best way to keep players out of the paint starts with the guards not the bigs.
So let me ask you would you rather have McGee defending the paint or Cuz? Ya McGee may get a lot of blocks and make some highlights, but he will make some lowlights too.
So let me ask you would you rather have McGee defending the paint or Cuz? Ya McGee may get a lot of blocks and make some highlights, but he will make some lowlights too.
The prevailing groupthought on Kingsfans has always been that for a big man to be effective on defense, he needs to be a shot-blocking big.
I believe I was even ridiculed awhile back for stating exactly what you just posted in the OP.
This addiction to " a shot-blocking big" has always dismissed the effect of taking charges in the contemporary NBA game, and has always ignored the FACT that a charge is ALWAYS a forced turnover, while a block many times does not lead to a change of possession (hell, many times I see the other team score a 3 or an And-1 after a block, because the defense is usually out of position after a block).
I believe I was even ridiculed awhile back for stating exactly what you just posted in the OP.
This addiction to " a shot-blocking big" has always dismissed the effect of taking charges in the contemporary NBA game, and has always ignored the FACT that a charge is ALWAYS a forced turnover, while a block many times does not lead to a change of possession (hell, many times I see the other team score a 3 or an And-1 after a block, because the defense is usually out of position after a block).
arguably, the charges drawn metric is fairly incidental to overall defense. the top10 in charges drawn at the centre position in order: Varejao, Zeller, Cousins, Nene, Stiemsma, Okafor, Splitter, Bogut, Leonard, Noah.
compared to top10 centres in blocks per game: Sanders, Howard, Hibbert, Noah, Lopez, McGee, Bogut, Gasol, Drummond, Gortat.
if you clean it up and eliminate players with not enough minutes or not enough starts the first list looks a bit better and both lists feature some questionable names. however, looking at the two lists, nobody can tell me that they'd prefer the names on the first list to those of the second one. so while both measures of looking at defense contribution are flawed and shouldn't be the end all of evaluating a player's defense, I'd argue that charges drawn is a worse way of looking for it and can, actually, be pretty much dismissed.
compared to top10 centres in blocks per game: Sanders, Howard, Hibbert, Noah, Lopez, McGee, Bogut, Gasol, Drummond, Gortat.
if you clean it up and eliminate players with not enough minutes or not enough starts the first list looks a bit better and both lists feature some questionable names. however, looking at the two lists, nobody can tell me that they'd prefer the names on the first list to those of the second one. so while both measures of looking at defense contribution are flawed and shouldn't be the end all of evaluating a player's defense, I'd argue that charges drawn is a worse way of looking for it and can, actually, be pretty much dismissed.
Except a guy with good body control can make a blocking foul out of an attempt by 6'11", 270 pounds behemoth to get a charge for an easy And1. Taking a charge also involves putting your hands down in front of you so when a guy decides to stop and pop or attempt a floater all of your 113 inches of length are useless. Bogut has standing reach of 9'2.5"(2.5" less than Boogie) and probably worse jumping ability. Still somehow he's a good defensive anchor. That's because he's always in the right position with his arms up instead of roaming around the paint looking to poke the ball from guards or trying to move in front of them. Just learn how to play defense!
I always wake up late so I didn't read the whole note and for that I apologize. I will come back and read it. As I think about the whole subject, spurred on by your first few comments, I realize there is a risk at every defensive move. Every defensive move can go wrong and end up working against the defender. Now I forget why we are arguing about Cuz except perhaps there is nothing more to say about Tyreke but the center of it is what I think is a unique talent he has of draying fouls. Now, I agree I'd rather that he had Camby skills but he doesn't. What he does, considering his size, I think is remarkable. In the end, is it the best way of playing defense for a guy his ize, probably not but with his physical skills and limitations, he does what he can do. That sounds silly but if a guy is getting positive benefit from an unusual
defensive style for a guy his size, I am not going to tell him he is wrong and try to change his style.
I read it.
Every attempt at defense has its risks especially the three that we focused on, blocks, charges, and steals. The other aspects of defense are not measured as you state at the end. We do not have the stats that cover all aspects of defense.
As an aside, I must say it is fun to get back into these arguments about minutiae, as that's what I think this is, because it means we all have our minds back and are not worrying about where the team is going to play. That has taken away from the energy to argue like this. The universe is back on it's access.
My point is what is the best defense for Cuz to play and not what is best for a generic 6'11" guy. Seems to me he could have more blocks but he doesn't and I don't anticipate a major turn around. I suspect he doesn't have the agility in the air to make many blocks other than to stick his hands in the air and hope he gets a block. I doubt he can move that weight around to do much more. I am personally amazed he can draw the charges that he does. Occasionally the call goes the other way but I think as the years pass, he will get the benefit of the doubt. I have seen calls go against him that I call anticipatory calls. The ref just assumes that no human could draw a charge in that situation so he blows his whistle against Cuz. The problem for them is that Cuz DOES have the physical skills to draw charges.
I don't want him to change. He does well at what physical skills he has. He needs help, though. Covering the area near the rim is not a one man job and what weaknesses he has needs to be covered by someone with the skills he is missing. If we had a well matched duo of bigs, there would be little to argue about.
I doubt if that stayed on the subject of stats but I don't enjoy discussing stats and honestly, all the testing on me and my family says we are very good at stats. As you mention at the end, stats will always be a bit behind what is going on the court, to paraphrase. Stats are not the answer to the whatever the question is although they contribute to the answer.
defensive style for a guy his size, I am not going to tell him he is wrong and try to change his style.
I read it.
Every attempt at defense has its risks especially the three that we focused on, blocks, charges, and steals. The other aspects of defense are not measured as you state at the end. We do not have the stats that cover all aspects of defense.
As an aside, I must say it is fun to get back into these arguments about minutiae, as that's what I think this is, because it means we all have our minds back and are not worrying about where the team is going to play. That has taken away from the energy to argue like this. The universe is back on it's access.
My point is what is the best defense for Cuz to play and not what is best for a generic 6'11" guy. Seems to me he could have more blocks but he doesn't and I don't anticipate a major turn around. I suspect he doesn't have the agility in the air to make many blocks other than to stick his hands in the air and hope he gets a block. I doubt he can move that weight around to do much more. I am personally amazed he can draw the charges that he does. Occasionally the call goes the other way but I think as the years pass, he will get the benefit of the doubt. I have seen calls go against him that I call anticipatory calls. The ref just assumes that no human could draw a charge in that situation so he blows his whistle against Cuz. The problem for them is that Cuz DOES have the physical skills to draw charges.
I don't want him to change. He does well at what physical skills he has. He needs help, though. Covering the area near the rim is not a one man job and what weaknesses he has needs to be covered by someone with the skills he is missing. If we had a well matched duo of bigs, there would be little to argue about.
I doubt if that stayed on the subject of stats but I don't enjoy discussing stats and honestly, all the testing on me and my family says we are very good at stats. As you mention at the end, stats will always be a bit behind what is going on the court, to paraphrase. Stats are not the answer to the whatever the question is although they contribute to the answer.
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I just want Cuz to play good D as rhythmless has described. Sometimes that entails taking a charge, sometimes it means going up to contest shots. Sometimes it means giving his man space and sometimes it's about being physical and fronting. This adaptability is especially important for interior defenders.
Exactly. He plays defense as if he's a guard himself. He can learn a thing or two from watching Hibbert play. Even when Hibbert isn't getting a block, he's always in someones way with his arms in the air. If you can knock 10 percentage points off of drives to the rim, you're a much more important defender than a guy like McGee who can get a couple blocks a game without actually playing good defense.
Dennis Rodman was one of the best man on man defenders of all time and he never averaged 1 block nor 1 steal a game at any point in his career.
Dennis Rodman was one of the best man on man defenders of all time and he never averaged 1 block nor 1 steal a game at any point in his career.
I think something to think about on this subject is the lack of "team defense" by the Kings. It's easy to say that DMC and JT should stay big, guard their space, and keep position for rebounding. However, a lot of that depends on knowing that you are going to get help from your teammates on a consistent basis. By the end of the season, no one trusted anyone else on defense and were pretty much fending for themselves.
I won't bother to comment on the video. Here is what I know about taking changes. If you are out on the floor (yeah, you keep your hand down), if you are in the paint then you keep them up. You should almost always have your hands up when playing defense around the basket.
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