Cauley-Stein Showing Rare Drive for Rookie

[EIM86]

I thought this deserved it's own thread for our rookie.
Well written article.

And then you stop playing for yourself and you start playing for your teammates, and then you start playing for your city, and that’s when it becomes powerful. When you’re playing for your city, that’s when you just don’t feel like you can be stopped because you’ve got 70 or 80,000 people on your back too.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/kings/cau...ookie-nobody-outworks-me?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

 

[kingsboi]

too bad that rare drive doesn't matter to Karl

 

[Glenn]

too bad that rare drive doesn't matter to Karl

Karl seems hypersensitive to "rookie mistakes" and seems to ignore rookie successes. He once said WCS was very good but his actions, as evidenced by Willie's use, says something different.

 

[kingsboi]

Karl seems hypersensitive to "rookie mistakes" and seems to ignore rookie successes. He once said WCS was very good but his actions, as evidenced by Willie's use, says something different.

I wonder...do Trill's minutes in wins and losses vary compared to one another?

 

[Glenn]

I wonder...do Trill's minutes in wins and losses vary compared to one another?

I think I remember someone here showing that a team with Cuz and Trill was the best.

Did anyone see Cousins' reaction when Karl substituted out Willie last night? He seemed very upset. Granted Gay came in but certainly there was a way to bring Gay in without removing Willie.

Something very well may blowup, again, and maybe it's time.

 

[kingsboi]

I think I remember someone here showing that a team with Cuz and Trill was the best.

Did anyone see Cousins' reaction when Karl substituted out Willie last night? He seemed very upset. Granted Gay came in but certainly there was a way to bring Gay in without removing Willie.

Something very well may blowup, again, and maybe it's time.

when you have so much instability as a franchise, a blowup is inevitable...we've seen it year after year.

 

[Glenn]

when you have so much instability as a franchise, a blowup is inevitable...we've seen it year after year.

Maybe this one needs to be started by anyone other than Cuz or Rondo like, maybe, BUTLER!!!

 

[206Fan]

I don't want to poop on Willie, but this is what he's going to live his career off of. This is what he does best. He's already 22 and likely won't be able to ever turn into Ibaka 2.0 or Notwitzki 2.0. His future will look a lot like Tyson Chandler. Nothing wrong with it at all, but it's good he embraces it. It's exactly what this crappy non-playing defense Kings need. They need a high energy player like WCS who's willing to lay it out all over the floor.

You don't see this from other rookies, because he's already a lot older than other rookies being 22. Compare him to Myles Turner who's only 19. Turner plays with less drive and intensity, but he shows much more versatility and potential on both ends.

In short, he's come into the NBA older than most, and he already knows his role. He's going to keep getting better, but this is most likely the player we're going to get for the next 10 years. If you compare him to Turner or Lyles, they're young guys just starting to find out their niche in the NBA.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

If wcs keeps this work ethic up, he'll end up being a top 3 player from this year's draft.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Karl seems hypersensitive to "rookie mistakes" and seems to ignore rookie successes. He once said WCS was very good but his actions, as evidenced by Willie's use, says something different.

It seems to be ok if Marco Belinelli misses shot after shot and can't defend t save his or his teams life --- he gets to play because he's a veteran. But this rookie that, despite making lots of mistakes, can also make some impactful defensive plays to help make up for it can't play because, well, he's a rookie.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Glenn]

It seems to be ok if Marco Belinelli misses shot after shot and can't defend t save his or his teams life --- he gets to play because he's a veteran. But this rookie that, despite making lots of mistakes, can also make some impactful defensive plays to help make up for it can't play because, well, he's a rookie.

Makes a lot of sense.

I'm not saying I like it. I'm with you.

 

[bajaden]

I don't want to poop on Willie, but this is what he's going to live his career off of. This is what he does best. He's already 22 and likely won't be able to ever turn into Ibaka 2.0 or Notwitzki 2.0. His future will look a lot like Tyson Chandler. Nothing wrong with it at all, but it's good he embraces it. It's exactly what this crappy non-playing defense Kings need. They need a high energy player like WCS who's willing to lay it out all over the floor.

You don't see this from other rookies, because he's already a lot older than other rookies being 22. Compare him to Myles Turner who's only 19. Turner plays with less drive and intensity, but he shows much more versatility and potential on both ends.

In short, he's come into the NBA older than most, and he already knows his role. He's going to keep getting better, but this is most likely the player we're going to get for the next 10 years. If you compare him to Turner or Lyles, they're young guys just starting to find out their niche in the NBA.

I like Turner, and I was touting Lyles when no one knew who he was, therefore I'm not going to bad mouth either in order to build up WCS. But what I hate and despise is when people try and lump players into a box. A player is 22 years old, therefore he's already reached his max. Pure nonsense!!!!!!!!! Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 22 years of age when he entered the NBA, do you think he didn't improve because of his age? Ray Allen - 21 yr's of age, Nate Archibald - 22 yr's of age, Charles Barkley - 21 yr's of age, Rick Barry - 21 yr's of age, Elgin Bayler - 24 yr's of age, Bill Bradley - 24 yr's of age, Larry Bird - 23 yr's of age. Now granted, all these players are HOF players, but they all improved once in the NBA? How about Steve Nash, who was 22 yr's of age and averaged 3.3 ppg his rookie year. Or John Stockton, who was 22 yr's of age and averaged 5.6 ppg his rookie year? My point isn't that WCS will become a HOF player, or even sniff the rare air of these players, but that you can't lock player into a box based on age.

I have no idea how good WCS will become, but I feel confident that he will become far better than he is today, and that's fine with me. The one big advantage that Willie has over Turner is his athleticism. Turner is a decent athlete, but is nowhere near the athlete that Willie is. he can't run the floor like Willie, which I think down the road will separate Willie from a lot of the bigs out there. Right now, at least from appearance, Turner seems to have better touch around the basket, and that's a hard thing to measure. Especially when Willie doesn't get many chances to show much of his offensive game. The bottom line is this, I don't give a damm whether Turner is great or not. This isn't a contest between Turner, a favorite of yours, and Willie. It isn't a zero sum game. Turner being good, doesn't make Willie bad, or vice versa.

By the way since you mentioned Ibaka, he turned 21 years of age two months after being drafted, and the biggest knock on him was that he had little or no offensive game, other than dunks, and lacked touch on his jumpshot. Also remember that Willie came to the game late, and was more known for his football skills in highschool. He didn't really take basketball seriously until his junior year of highschool. Players aren't robots. They don't all come with the same parts, and most of what separates them is between their ears. The smarter the player, and the more driven they are, the better they'll be, as long as they recognize their limitations.

 

[EIM86]

The game as of now is small ball dominant, but as we all know, history always repeats itself. Eventually it's going to be big men that do everything a guard can do. Our team might be that team in the next couple years. We already have Cuz that can play like a guard. So far, we have a developing WCS who runs the court faster then most guards and has made a couple midrange jumpers. Once WCS develops a little bit of a post game and consistent midrange shot we are going to punish teams for going small!

 

[206Fan]

I like Turner, and I was touting Lyles when no one knew who he was, therefore I'm not going to bad mouth either in order to build up WCS. But what I hate and despise is when people try and lump players into a box. A player is 22 years old, therefore he's already reached his max. Pure nonsense!!!!!!!!! Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 22 years of age when he entered the NBA, do you think he didn't improve because of his age? Ray Allen - 21 yr's of age, Nate Archibald - 22 yr's of age, Charles Barkley - 21 yr's of age, Rick Barry - 21 yr's of age, Elgin Bayler - 24 yr's of age, Bill Bradley - 24 yr's of age, Larry Bird - 23 yr's of age. Now granted, all these players are HOF players, but they all improved once in the NBA? How about Steve Nash, who was 22 yr's of age and averaged 3.3 ppg his rookie year. Or John Stockton, who was 22 yr's of age and averaged 5.6 ppg his rookie year? My point isn't that WCS will become a HOF player, or even sniff the rare air of these players, but that you can't lock player into a box based on age.

I have no idea how good WCS will become, but I feel confident that he will become far better than he is today, and that's fine with me. The one big advantage that Willie has over Turner is his athleticism. Turner is a decent athlete, but is nowhere near the athlete that Willie is. he can't run the floor like Willie, which I think down the road will separate Willie from a lot of the bigs out there. Right now, at least from appearance, Turner seems to have better touch around the basket, and that's a hard thing to measure. Especially when Willie doesn't get many chances to show much of his offensive game. The bottom line is this, I don't give a damm whether Turner is great or not. This isn't a contest between Turner, a favorite of yours, and Willie. It isn't a zero sum game. Turner being good, doesn't make Willie bad, or vice versa.

By the way since you mentioned Ibaka, he turned 21 years of age two months after being drafted, and the biggest knock on him was that he had little or no offensive game, other than dunks, and lacked touch on his jumpshot. Also remember that Willie came to the game late, and was more known for his football skills in highschool. He didn't really take basketball seriously until his junior year of highschool. Players aren't robots. They don't all come with the same parts, and most of what separates them is between their ears. The smarter the player, and the more driven they are, the better they'll be, as long as they recognize their limitations.

The entire point of this thread was comparing WCS to his rookie peers. He shows rare "drive" for a rookie. Therefore, I think it's fair to bring up the context of it. This includes his age and you know... the guys you're comparing him to. That's why I brought up Turner and Lyles.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was 22 years of age when he entered the NBA, do you think he didn't improve because of his age?

Kareem averaged 28pts 14rebs and 4asts his rookie year.

Now granted, all these players are HOF players, but they all improved once in the NBA?

I've never said that WCS will NOT improve, I'm saying its highly highly unlikely that a big man like WCS will ever be able to develop an elite offensive game because of how little he's actually shown in both the NBA and college. All of these bigs you named( I don't think it's fair to included Gs because bigs and guards develop differently) have come into the NBA with a good specific skillset that they all improved on. That's going to be the same for WCS, but he's so far off the road that it's highly unlikely that he ever adds on any type of elite offense.

What does WCS honestly bring to this team aside from: great rim protection, solid perimeter defense, offensive rebounding, great PnR, athleticism, hustle, and effort? 1/2 of his game relies solely on his athleticism and quickness. 1/4 is his heart, and the other 1/4 is defensive bball IQ. When you have a player like him who hasn't shown much outside of these checkmarks, and already excels at them, it's much easier for him to focus on his role than it is for someone like Nerlens Noel. Noel could be exactly what WCS is right now, but he has way too much skillsets for him to settle in that type of role. Guys like Noel, Turner, KAT, and etc are all still trying to figure out their roles in the NBA. WCS has already found his. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a role player.

This is my evaluation of him thus far on offense:
Strong finisher in PnR, but has a lack of touch around the rim when asked to create his own. Poor hands in traffic, unless the ball is thrown above. Poor shooter who needs to work on his mechanics in order to develop a more consistent stroke. Great job attacking the rim for offensive rebounds and putbacks.

In a few years down the road, WCS will be able to improve on all of these things. He could turn out to be a dominant finisher around the rim with a great touch. He can develop a perfectly fine 14ft jumper. What my I was saying is that it's highly unlikely that he's ever going to branch out from what he already has. Highly unlikely. That's why he's going to continue on the things he does well now, and get better at them.

By the way since you mentioned Ibaka, he turned 21 years of age two months after being drafted, and the biggest knock on him was that he had little or no offensive game, other than dunks, and lacked touch on his jumpshot.

I recall differently.

According to NBA.com in 2008

Strengths: Physical specimen with an abundance of raw athletic ability. Possesses an outstanding vertical leap for a taller player and gets off the floor quickly. Has range on his face-up jumper.

According to DX in 2009

. Though Ibaka no longer takes as many jumpers as he did during his days playing for CB L'Hospitalet, he still possesses nice form and solid range on his shot. A bit tentative at times to pull the trigger from the midrange, Ibaka is going to benefit immensely from the personal attention he's sure to receive from Oklahoma City's coaching staff. Improved confidence and footwork could turn him into a very capable shooter over time.

Many of those issues stem from his lack of finishing ability with his left hand. Ibaka showed time and time again with Manresa that he is capable of doing some damage offensively with his right hand, displaying a developing running hook and a decent turnaround jumper. However, his lack of counter-moves hurt his ability to score in Las Vegas,

NBADraftnet in 2007 (2 years before the draft)

He's currently playing in Spain for L'Hospitalet Has solid footwork in the post, and an improving turn around jumper He can even extend out to the 3 pt line and knock down shots on occaision. Has good touch on his shot, and solid mechanics, he just needs to become more comfortable with his offensive game so it becomes second nature

I remember a few weeks ago, someone here claimed WCS has shown more offensive ability than Ibaka did coming into the NBA. Ibaka actually turned 20 after he was drafted...although...I think he may be older than he's listed. It wouldn't surprise me at all... The whole Shabazz thing was pretty weird too.

In all, not saying WCS won't develop furthermore. I think me and you both know that he came out of college with a high floor and low ceiling. It's a bit unrealistic to expect him to make leap and bounds into some type of 3pt shooter. Ben on the other hand, it's much more realistic to expect him to make leap and bounds and become a good attacker and finisher. Why? Because he actually showed us the ability in Kansas and his rookie year.

 

[bajaden]

The entire point of this thread was comparing WCS to his rookie peers. He shows rare "drive" for a rookie. Therefore, I think it's fair to bring up the context of it. This includes his age and you know... the guys you're comparing him to. That's why I brought up Turner and Lyles.

Kareem averaged 28pts 14rebs and 4asts his rookie year.


I've never said that WCS will NOT improve, I'm saying its highly highly unlikely that a big man like WCS will ever be able to develop an elite offensive game because of how little he's actually shown in both the NBA and college. All of these bigs you named( I don't think it's fair to included Gs because bigs and guards develop differently) have come into the NBA with a good specific skillset that they all improved on. That's going to be the same for WCS, but he's so far off the road that it's highly unlikely that he ever adds on any type of elite offense.

What does WCS honestly bring to this team aside from: great rim protection, solid perimeter defense, offensive rebounding, great PnR, athleticism, hustle, and effort? 1/2 of his game relies solely on his athleticism and quickness. 1/4 is his heart, and the other 1/4 is defensive bball IQ. When you have a player like him who hasn't shown much outside of these checkmarks, and already excels at them, it's much easier for him to focus on his role than it is for someone like Nerlens Noel. Noel could be exactly what WCS is right now, but he has way too much skillsets for him to settle in that type of role. Guys like Noel, Turner, KAT, and etc are all still trying to figure out their roles in the NBA. WCS has already found his. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a role player.

This is my evaluation of him thus far on offense:
Strong finisher in PnR, but has a lack of touch around the rim when asked to create his own. Poor hands in traffic, unless the ball is thrown above. Poor shooter who needs to work on his mechanics in order to develop a more consistent stroke. Great job attacking the rim for offensive rebounds and putbacks.

In a few years down the road, WCS will be able to improve on all of these things. He could turn out to be a dominant finisher around the rim with a great touch. He can develop a perfectly fine 14ft jumper. What my I was saying is that it's highly unlikely that he's ever going to branch out from what he already has. Highly unlikely. That's why he's going to continue on the things he does well now, and get better at them.


I recall differently.

According to NBA.com in 2008

According to DX in 2009



NBADraftnet in 2007 (2 years before the draft)

I remember a few weeks ago, someone here claimed WCS has shown more offensive ability than Ibaka did coming into the NBA. Ibaka actually turned 20 after he was drafted...although...I think he may be older than he's listed. It wouldn't surprise me at all... The whole Shabazz thing was pretty weird too.

In all, not saying WCS won't develop furthermore. I think me and you both know that he came out of college with a high floor and low ceiling. It's a bit unrealistic to expect him to make leap and bounds into some type of 3pt shooter. Ben on the other hand, it's much more realistic to expect him to make leap and bounds and become a good attacker and finisher. Why? Because he actually showed us the ability in Kansas and his rookie year.

First, your right about Ibaka's age. I saw that he was listed as 20 years old when drafted (June) and that his birthday was in Sept. so I didn't bother to actually add up the years. So my mistake. As to the purpose of the thread, I thought it was in response to a very nice article praising Willie's work ethic, and his future ambitions. You were the one that started comparing him to other players. As to Ibaka's shooting ability coming into the league, I was going on what NBA scouts said, and what I saw with my own eyes. So you can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. It's subjective, and I've certainly been wrong about players. Incidentally, in Ibaka's first three years in the league, he took a grand total of 6 three point shots. I wonder why?

My response is merely to point out that players will improve with hard work, and those that don't, like Donte Green, usually don't because they're lazy. I'm certainly not saying that Willie will be a super star, or even a top defensive player in the league. (I think he'll be at least the latter) But I think if he works hard, then the sky's the limit for him. Although you qualified your response by saying that he would improve, my first impression of what you wrote was, what you see is what your going to get in the future, just maybe a tad better. Now maybe you didn't intend it that way, or maybe I'm just not capable of reading it properly, but I didn't see the point in throwing a little cold water on what was a positive thread. Maybe I'm being to sensitive. Although my wife has never accused me of that.

 

[206Fan]

First, your right about Ibaka's age. I saw that he was listed as 20 years old when drafted (June) and that his birthday was in Sept. so I didn't bother to actually add up the years. So my mistake. As to the purpose of the thread, I thought it was in response to a very nice article praising Willie's work ethic, and his future ambitions. You were the one that started comparing him to other players. As to Ibaka's shooting ability coming into the league, I was going on what NBA scouts said, and what I saw with my own eyes. So you can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. It's subjective, and I've certainly been wrong about players. Incidentally, in Ibaka's first three years in the league, he took a grand total of 6 three point shots. I wonder why?

My response is merely to point out that players will improve with hard work, and those that don't, like Donte Green, usually don't because they're lazy. I'm certainly not saying that Willie will be a super star, or even a top defensive player in the league. (I think he'll be at least the latter) But I think if he works hard, then the sky's the limit for him. Although you qualified your response by saying that he would improve, my first impression of what you wrote was, what you see is what your going to get in the future, just maybe a tad better. Now maybe you didn't intend it that way, or maybe I'm just not capable of reading it properly, but I didn't see the point in throwing a little cold water on what was a positive thread. Maybe I'm being to sensitive. Although my wife has never accused me of that.

I think I just did a poor job in trying to explain where I was going. WCS will be a great player for the Kings.

His maturity level is the best out of any prospect in this class, and you have to adore the crap out of that. You can question the effort of this team, but you can never question WCS' effort. I hope he develops to his full ceiling and has 10+years alongside Cousins in Sacramento

 

[KingMilz]

WCS should work on his hooks in the paint and forget about trying to expand his game right now, he's always going to have a height or quickness advantage over whoever is guarding him. Work on a one two dribble face up game and hooks (e.g face up running hooks/half hooks) . His ability to quick jump along with his length are way better suited to that than trying to throw up 15 footers.

If the jumper comes great but that should be secondary his game/body is built for quick floaters and hooks around the rim.

 

[lawlman91]

WCS should work on his hooks in the paint and forget about trying to expand his game right now, he's always going to have a height or quickness advantage over whoever is guarding him. Work on a one two dribble face up game and hooks (e.g face up running hooks/half hooks) . His ability to quick jump along with his length are way better suited to that than trying to throw up 15 footers.

If the jumper comes great but that should be secondary his game/body is built for quick floaters and hooks around the rim.

Not to mention that a hook/fade/post game will punish teams who try to play small at the 4 if we have Cousins in at the same time as WCS. Post moves are the priority, not a mid-range J.

 

[bajaden]

WCS should work on his hooks in the paint and forget about trying to expand his game right now, he's always going to have a height or quickness advantage over whoever is guarding him. Work on a one two dribble face up game and hooks (e.g face up running hooks/half hooks) . His ability to quick jump along with his length are way better suited to that than trying to throw up 15 footers.

If the jumper comes great but that should be secondary his game/body is built for quick floaters and hooks around the rim.

Well knowing something about players working on their game, I can tell you that they usually work on all aspects of their game, and not just one thing. What Willie needs in the short term in the post, is patience, and I think that will come. He's a quick leaper and can jump out of the building, which is a plus, but also right now, a negative as well. In college if he got the ball near the basket, he would simply dunk it. Not so easy in the NBA. Just exploding to the basket isn't always going to work. A little patience with some footwork and pumpfakes will increase his success.

That's not to disagree with your post. He does need to improve his hook shot, to the point where he has confidence in it. A 15 foot jumper would make a huge difference in his game and would open up the floor for Cuz more. Right now, when Willie moves out of the post, they stop guarding him and use his defender to drop down on Cuz. He eventually has to become efficient enough with that jumper to make them guard him. It's not unique to Willie. They don't guard Koufos when he moves away from the basket either.

 

[biltalent]

Something to cheer up in these times:

Even without counting his 15 point game against the Celtics, Willie is averaging 5.9 points while hitting 59.6% of his fiels goals, 5.7 rebounds, 1.2 blocks and 0.6 steals in 20 minutes per game.

His numbers per 36 minutes: 10.5 points, 10.2 rebounds, 2.2 blocks, 1.1 steals.

Here are per 36 numbers of the first year of players that Willie gets compared to:

Tyson Chandler (age 19): 11.3 points, .497 fg%, 8.9 rebounds, 2.4 blocks, 0.7 steals (19.6 minutes per game)
Deandre Jordan (age 20): 10.6 points, .633%, 11.1 rebounds, 2.8 blocks, 0.5 steals (14.5 minutes per game)
Joakim Noah (age 22): 11.5 points, .482 fg%, 9.8 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, 1.6 steals (20.7 minutes per game)

Personally, I like the comparison to Joakim Noah the most because both are mobile defenders that get blocks and steals. Obviously Noah is the better passer, but Willie has shown some passing skills as well. But I don't want to put Willie in a box. There has never been a player like him in terms of physical attributes and instincts. He is the fastest 7 footer that I have ever seen. Defensively, we have seen nice rotations from the weak side, chase down blocks and quick hands to stripe passes. Offensively, he scores mostly on alley-oops, drop offs and putbacks, but he has also hit foul line jumpers and scored on a few post ups.

Here are two highlight videos hat show him do everything I just mentioned:

Obviously he has a lot work to, but I'm excited for the kids potential. Amazing how the future suddenly looks bright when you dont blow your draft picks year after year.

 

[KingMilz]

With the season done everything for the reminder of the year should be developing WCS I say instead of wasting time running plays for Rudy/Belli/Ben force feed WCS 4/5 times a game and run some plays and encourage him to take 10-15 footers he's literally the only guy on this team even worth developing.

At least groom the one potential winner out of a group of losers while he might not be ready for it no better place than to practice it on games that don't have any bearing on the rest of the year. Also every time he gets a board just tell him to go straight back up stop kicking it out.

Thank god for WCS

 

[CelticsFan]

If wcs keeps this work ethic up, he'll end up being a top 3 player from this year's draft.

I promise WCS won't be a top 3 player from this draft. He's great defensively but will never become an offensive threat. Not that it's the end all be all but WCS didn't make the Rising Stars Game. As of today the NBA doesn't view WCS as a "rising star".

Top 3 out of this draft? Come on man that's viewing the draft with purple glasses on. Porzingis and KAT seem like they are going to be future franchise players. Throw in Myles Turner, Russell, Okafor, Booker, Winslow, Stanley Johnson, Super Mario. I think WCS has a better chance of NOT being a top 10 player from this draft rather than a potential top 3 player in this draft.

With that being said doesn't mean WCS is a bust. He will probably have a nice NBA career just will probably never be an All Star let a lone a franchise player