Dave Joerger and the obvious simple things

[sactownfan]

This was just ugly all around... however...

The tone of a game can be decided from the start. Teams can get their mojo going quickly from the start and have that carry them through the rest of the game. Running a clueless player like Ben out there (I'll let the Koufos thing pass) is setting us up for failure, putting us at a disadvantage and setting an ugly tone to start.

For all those that ripped me initially over the starting line up and bad roster decisions Dave has made. I wanna focus not on Koufos but the SG position in the starting line up. Because I believe more now than ever its an indictment on Dave and his coaching ability.

The golden state warriors do not bring Draymond Green off the bench. For anyone that watched the Christmas game he picked up two quick fouls and is their best defender. U NEED TO START UR BEST 5!!

Temple is > Ben in every aspect. Ballhandling, shooting, defense, mental stability, leadership, you name it. In fact temple is better than every person that we currently have that can play the shooting guard position.

I will give some credit to coach for starting temple in the second half. However the game had already been Set as ugly by that point.

This team due to Daves line ups believes they can come back from anything and win.... how long until we can start a game with that level of confidence. Because it's called the temple line up!!!!

 

[gunks]

Why not just bump your other Joerger rant thread?

Ah well, I'm the one commenting in this one!

 

[King Baller]

This was just ugly all around... however...

The tone of a game can be decided from the start. Teams can get their mojo going quickly from the start and have that carry them through the rest of the game. Running a clueless player like Ben out there (I'll let the Koufos thing pass) is setting us up for failure, putting us at a disadvantage and setting an ugly tone to start.

For all those that ripped me initially over the starting line up and bad roster decisions Dave has made. I wanna focus not on Koufos but the SG position in the starting line up. Because I believe more now than ever its an indictment on Dave and his coaching ability.

The golden state warriors do not bring Draymond Green off the bench. For anyone that watched the Christmas game he picked up two quick fouls and is their best defender. U NEED TO START UR BEST 5!!

Temple is > Ben in every aspect. Ballhandling, shooting, defense, mental stability, leadership, you name it. In fact temple is better than every person that we currently have that can play the shooting guard position.

I will give some credit to coach for starting temple in the second half. However the game had already been Set as ugly by that point.

This team due to Daves line ups believes they can come back from anything and win.... how long until we can start a game with that level of confidence. Because it's called the temple line up!!!!

I would like to see your starters and your bench players with minutes for each player. how about it can you do that?

 

[sactownfan]

Why not just bump your other Joerger rant thread?

Ah well, I'm the one commenting in this one!

Well because I'm zeroing in on the SG position... unlike the emperor in Star Wars I'm giving in slightly less to my inner hate hahaha

 

[sactownfan]

I would like to see your starters and your bench players with minutes for each player. how about it can you do that?

Well Aaron bruski on twitter just posted our most effective defenders... Temple was #3 gay was #1 and cousins was #2... seems legit... and the fact that temple is always apart of us winning every single time in one way or the other

 

[Kingsfan91]

This was just ugly all around... however...

The tone of a game can be decided from the start. Teams can get their mojo going quickly from the start and have that carry them through the rest of the game. Running a clueless player like Ben out there (I'll let the Koufos thing pass) is setting us up for failure, putting us at a disadvantage and setting an ugly tone to start.

For all those that ripped me initially over the starting line up and bad roster decisions Dave has made. I wanna focus not on Koufos but the SG position in the starting line up. Because I believe more now than ever its an indictment on Dave and his coaching ability.

The golden state warriors do not bring Draymond Green off the bench. For anyone that watched the Christmas game he picked up two quick fouls and is their best defender. U NEED TO START UR BEST 5!!

Temple is > Ben in every aspect. Ballhandling, shooting, defense, mental stability, leadership, you name it. In fact temple is better than every person that we currently have that can play the shooting guard position.

I will give some credit to coach for starting temple in the second half. However the game had already been Set as ugly by that point.

This team due to Daves line ups believes they can come back from anything and win.... how long until we can start a game with that level of confidence. Because it's called the temple line up!!!!

I feel that would make our bench far too weak. Who comes in and gives you consistency off the bench without temple?

 

[sactownfan]

I feel that would make our bench far too weak. Who comes in and gives you consistency off the bench without temple?

Surprisingly enough ben ... yes I just said that... I honestly don't think I'm alone in noticing ben had actually ben the best against the backups on other teams. Plus yes Koufos would be a stellar bench "rock". Barnes or collision ... or if Dave would have done what he said he'd do and run Rudy and Cousins staggered it's could work

 

[IfAt1st]

I feel that would make our bench far too weak. Who comes in and gives you consistency off the bench without temple?

Who cares about the bench (relatively)?

Games are mostly won or lost by the starters in the NBA.
On average, the benches kind of cancel each other out.

I think it's ridiculous to care more about the bench than the starting 5 and how they do.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Who cares about the bench (relatively)?

Games are mostly won or lost by the starters in the NBA.
On average, the benches kind of cancel each other out.

I think it's ridiculous to care more about the bench than the starting 5 and how they do.

I usually say that it matters more who finishes games, and who plays the most minutes, and not necessarily who starts.

But at some point, one needs to stop asking "who will get us out of the hole" and start asking why you are in the hole to begin with.

 

[Kingsfan91]

Who cares about the bench (relatively)?

Games are mostly won or lost by the starters in the NBA.
On average, the benches kind of cancel each other out.

I think it's ridiculous to care more about the bench than the starting 5 and how they do.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/7/diffeff/1-1

Only the Cavs, Bulls, Warriors, Rockets, Clippers and Jazz have negative benches and are still qualifying for the playoffs as of today. Obviously most of those teams have disgusting starting lineups.

10/16 teams with a positive point differential for their bench are in the playoffs= 62%

That seems pretty significant to me! Not everyone can have 3 superstars

The Raptors and Spurs would sure love to tell you about the importance of your bench!

 

[King Baller]

The players you anoint as "The Starting Five" cannot play 48 minutes night in and night out. Also other teams begin to game plan for those specific players. Guys that come in and look great as "change of pace" players can lose some of their luster when faced with starting and heavy minutes.

Coach Joerger is a very experienced Coach. At some point the Players have to own it. IMO the players own the loss last night.

 

[Kingsfan91]

Technically I should add the Nuggets as well, since they are tied with us for the final playoff spot and have the best bench point differential.

 

[King Baller]

Well Aaron bruski on twitter just posted our most effective defenders... Temple was #3 gay was #1 and cousins was #2... seems legit... and the fact that temple is always apart of us winning every single time in one way or the other

sactownfan, you have talked a lot of smack about Coach Joerger on this forum. If you are so sure of what should be done with the player rotations please share with us?

 

[sactownfan]

sactownfan, you have talked a lot of smack about Coach Joerger on this forum. If you are so sure of what should be done with the player rotations please share with us?

At this moment starting 5

PG Lawson. (He's earned it)
SG temple (this is the no brainer)
SF Casspi (he was apart of all our most effective lineups last year.)
PF Gay (this seems to make too much sense, he long and and a tad slow laterally. At this point he matches up against almost all the power forwards in the league. It's a smaller league.
C I'd go with Koufos because I like Cousins versatility off the bench....... lol! J/k Joerger is a joke. Can't believe that's his excuse to start Ben over temple...

That's a pretty long starting 5... weaknesses are Gay could be too small against a few teams. However unlike Koufos and cousins never exploiting the size against small ball teams. Gay I feel could force teams to go smaller to keep up with him. This isn't perfect. But it doesn't leave Cousins guarding a stretch 4 or a SF like Harrison Barnes or like last night he was on Aminu (who btw torched us until the 2nd half)

There's no excuse for Cousins guarding a SF as his man. POR started 2 SF's and 2 SG's. Cousins should have been the only big to start. Again... Im cool with cousins an kk if we could ever find a way to take advantage of the size but as we have all seen there no advantage. It clogs the paint and puts Cousins on a SF.

So the bench...

PG Collision as a 6th man is pretty good he's a career top notch backup
SG Richardson Then Ben I know... at this point there's no way Richardson can be as awful as ben
SF Affalo I know again... more suited at this spot
PF Tolliver /Barnes Joerger is already deploying these guys here
C Koufos he's a rock. In the one game Joerger brought him off the bench we crushed the Raptors to start the game and never let up.

We need more talent on this team no question. But not we are losing games due to bad match ups and not starting with our best players... it's crazy how we sabotage ourselves to start every game

 

[VF21]

Surprisingly enough ben ... yes I just said that... I honestly don't think I'm alone in noticing ben had actually ben the best against the backups on other teams. Plus yes Koufos would be a stellar bench "rock". Barnes or collision ... or if Dave would have done what he said he'd do and run Rudy and Cousins staggered it's could work

No. No, no, no, no...NO! Ben is not the answer to anything. Shifting him to the second unit just shifts the problem, especially when it's a close game and the pressure is on the bench to either maintain a lead or launch a comeback. Ben isn't going to gain more confidence coming off the bench. You desperately needing it to be true to make starting Temple more palatable doesn't change the facts. Rely on Ben McLemore for ANYTHING at your peril.

 

[The Hammer]

The team is in a funny spot.

We have guys we probably should trade, and doing so would make us better now (Gay, McLemore, perhaps Collison), but we do not have the luxury of leverage. In this situation, the best thing to do is wait, even though it's not easy, and it may cost us the playoffs this year. The good side is that we have the loyalty of Cousins, and his relationship with management is clearly solid. We do not risk Cousins leaving if we don't make the playoffs this year, as some people might think. Not as long as we have intelligent leadership that communicates well with Boogie and keeps him in the loop on the vision and plans. In that case, Boogie will be willing to wait, just as we all have to.

However, Gay is in a contract year, so he may pull a Rondo and be good, or he may try to get his stats. We don't know. We may have to wait until the deadline and trade him to a team making a big push to get over the top (crazy as it sounds, maybe the Spurs).

The main thing to realize is that we are building for long term success, and in that case you have to be patient until the best deal comes around, and you can't just bench guys, because that kills their trade value. We are going to have to wait it out. If it costs us losses now, we are going to have to accept that. I am POSITIVE Vlade sees what we see. He's not an idiot. He's the King of team ball. Think of his role in our glory years. He gets it.

 

[sactownfan]

No. No, no, no, no...NO! Ben is not the answer to anything. Shifting him to the second unit just shifts the problem, especially when it's a close game and the pressure is on the bench to either maintain a lead or launch a comeback. Ben isn't going to gain more confidence coming off the bench. You desperately needing it to be true to make starting Temple more palatable doesn't change the facts. Rely on Ben McLemore for ANYTHING at your peril.

I 100% agree with u. He isn't ... but at at least against other second tier players he has a fighting chance and we don't really have a lot of their options at shooting guard.... to be honest I forgot Richardson was on the team he should most definitely at this point be ahead of Ben on the depth chart so I would change that. Richardson ahead of ben.... but the fact I forgot he was on the team is also an indictment of Dave's bad coaching there's no way I should be watching so much ben

 

[sactownfan]

No. No, no, no, no...NO! Ben is not the answer to anything. Shifting him to the second unit just shifts the problem, especially when it's a close game and the pressure is on the bench to either maintain a lead or launch a comeback. Ben isn't going to gain more confidence coming off the bench. You desperately needing it to be true to make starting Temple more palatable doesn't change the facts. Rely on Ben McLemore for ANYTHING at your peril.

The best Ben has ever played was this year coming off the bench. He did play better against second tier players. But he still awful

 

[kingsboi]

It's so simple, yet...it hasn't been fixed. He must be on to something. You really must have it out for Joerger because the last three threads that you have created are all about Joerger.

 

[Livinthedream]

We should sign Jimmer

 

[funkykingston]

Lawson
Temple
Casspi
Gay
Cousins

I've flip-flopped Ty and Darren but otherwise that's the starting five I've been asking for all season.

Off the bench I'd use:

Collison
Afflalo
Barnes
Tolliver/WCS
Koufos

Afflalo should be able to post up opposing 2nd unit guards and Collison adds some scoring punch. Koufos to me is a very solid backup center.

Just for one game can we see this?

 

[Kingsfan23]

Lawson
Temple
Casspi
Gay
Cousins

I've flip-flopped Ty and Darren but otherwise that's the starting five I've been asking for all season.

Off the bench I'd use:

Collison
Afflalo
Barnes
Tolliver/WCS
Koufos

Afflalo should be able to post up opposing 2nd unit guards and Collison adds some scoring punch. Koufos to me is a very solid backup center.

Just for one game can we see this?

I wouldn't mind. I suggested wanting to see Casspi/Gay starting before the season and the advanced stats have been positive for them doing so

 

[King Baller]

 

[bajaden]

I feel that would make our bench far too weak. Who comes in and gives you consistency off the bench without temple?

This is literally putting the cart before the horse. It's worrying about who will fix the holes in the boat before the boat has any holes in it. The question should be, can Temple be as effective as a starter as he's been coming off the bench. Temple is averaging 24:13 mpg, 7.3 ppg, while shooting 43.5% overall and 40.2% from the three. Ben is averaging 16:53 mpg, 6.1 ppg, which shooting 40.7% overall, and 29.1% from the three. Based on that, it's hard to make a case for Ben starting over Temple.

You could play Temple 10 more minutes a game, upping his minutes to around 34 mpg. Fill in the rest of the time with either Ben or Afflalo. Or go to a two PG situation for a few minutes every game. But I think we need to stop worrying about how we need Temple on the bench to help dig us out of a hole, if by starting him, we never create a hole to dig out of. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try out that scenario.

While I was digging through the stats, I saw another situation that, to these old eye's, lacks explanation. Barnes is averaging 24:48 mpg, 7.1 ppg, while shooting 37.1% overall, and 30.7% from the three. Throw in 4.6 rebounds as well. He's taken 114 three point attempts, despite being one of the worse three point shooters on the team this year.

Casspi is averaging 19:26 mpg, 6.7 ppg while shooting 47.2% overall, and 40.7% from the three. Making him the best three point shooter on the team. And yet, he's only taken 27 three point attempts. Would someone like to explain that to me. He's also averaging 4.1 rebounds per game. Casspi is by far the more effective player, at least statically. Look, I don't blame Barnes for taking open three's. He's doing what he should be doing with an open shot. But I do blame Joerger for giving him that many minutes, and putting Barnes in the situation where he gets those shots, instead of someone that might actually make those shots.

Maybe the reason we miss so many open shots is because we have people who are poor shooters taking them. I know that Joerger has history with Barnes, and trusts him to do the right things needed on the floor. But at some point, you have to look at the results and say it's not working. I'll be honest, I've reached the point where I'd rather see Richardson get 8 or 9 minutes a game instead of Ben. He certainly can't do any worse, and who knows, he might surprise everyone. I also believe that Willie seems to play his best basketball when on the floor with Cousins. However, it's hard to argue that he earned the right to start.

Fact is, we don't have a legit starter at the PF position. It's sort of PF by committee. Tolliver is a backup PF and a poor rebounder. Gay and Casspi are true SF's, and Koufos is a center, as is Cousins. This is why I wanted Ryan Anderson during the summer. Whether you like him or hate him, he's far better than anyone we have playing that position now. But that's water under the bridge now.

 

[peacelate]

Joeger can start by giving Barnes less minutes. To be honest, Barnes has been nothing short of awful.

 

[funkykingston]

This is literally putting the cart before the horse. It's worrying about who will fix the holes in the boat before the boat has any holes in it. The question should be, can Temple be as effective as a starter as he's been coming off the bench. Temple is averaging 24:13 mpg, 7.3 ppg, while shooting 43.5% overall and 40.2% from the three. Ben is averaging 16:53 mpg, 6.1 ppg, which shooting 40.7% overall, and 29.1% from the three. Based on that, it's hard to make a case for Ben starting over Temple.

You could play Temple 10 more minutes a game, upping his minutes to around 34 mpg. Fill in the rest of the time with either Ben or Afflalo. Or go to a two PG situation for a few minutes every game. But I think we need to stop worrying about how we need Temple on the bench to help dig us out of a hole, if by starting him, we never create a hole to dig out of. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try out that scenario.

While I was digging through the stats, I saw another situation that, to these old eye's, lacks explanation. Barnes is averaging 24:48 mpg, 7.1 ppg, while shooting 37.1% overall, and 30.7% from the three. Throw in 4.6 rebounds as well. He's taken 114 three point attempts, despite being one of the worse three point shooters on the team this year.

Casspi is averaging 19:26 mpg, 6.7 ppg while shooting 47.2% overall, and 40.7% from the three. Making him the best three point shooter on the team. And yet, he's only taken 27 three point attempts. Would someone like to explain that to me. He's also averaging 4.1 rebounds per game. Casspi is by far the more effective player, at least statically. Look, I don't blame Barnes for taking open three's. He's doing what he should be doing with an open shot. But I do blame Joerger for giving him that many minutes, and putting Barnes in the situation where he gets those shots, instead of someone that might actually make those shots.

Maybe the reason we miss so many open shots is because we have people who are poor shooters taking them. I know that Joerger has history with Barnes, and trusts him to do the right things needed on the floor. But at some point, you have to look at the results and say it's not working. I'll be honest, I've reached the point where I'd rather see Richardson get 8 or 9 minutes a game instead of Ben. He certainly can't do any worse, and who knows, he might surprise everyone. I also believe that Willie seems to play his best basketball when on the floor with Cousins. However, it's hard to argue that he earned the right to start.

Fact is, we don't have a legit starter at the PF position. It's sort of PF by committee. Tolliver is a backup PF and a poor rebounder. Gay and Casspi are true SF's, and Koufos is a center, as is Cousins. This is why I wanted Ryan Anderson during the summer. Whether you like him or hate him, he's far better than anyone we have playing that position now. But that's water under the bridge now.

Definitely agree on most points. The other issue with Barnes beyond his poor shooting is the high number of turnovers. He's always looking for the outlet pass (which I love) but has been too sloppy at times. I like his toughness and attitude but I'm not sure he's even been a better defender than Omri this season.

Part of the reason I want to see Gay & Casspi start at the forward spots is that Omri is a very good rebounder for a SF. Far better than Tolliver or Cauley-Stein while helping space the floor on the other end.

And I agree on Ben. The light has never come on for him, the game has never slowed down for him and at this point it's very unlikely it ever will. Some other team can overpay for him this offseason and the Kings should either be looking to Affalo for backup SG minutes or giving that PT to Malachi to let him develop and see what kind of player they have in him.

 

[sactownfan]

This is literally putting the cart before the horse. It's worrying about who will fix the holes in the boat before the boat has any holes in it. The question should be, can Temple be as effective as a starter as he's been coming off the bench. Temple is averaging 24:13 mpg, 7.3 ppg, while shooting 43.5% overall and 40.2% from the three. Ben is averaging 16:53 mpg, 6.1 ppg, which shooting 40.7% overall, and 29.1% from the three. Based on that, it's hard to make a case for Ben starting over Temple.

You could play Temple 10 more minutes a game, upping his minutes to around 34 mpg. Fill in the rest of the time with either Ben or Afflalo. Or go to a two PG situation for a few minutes every game. But I think we need to stop worrying about how we need Temple on the bench to help dig us out of a hole, if by starting him, we never create a hole to dig out of. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try out that scenario.

While I was digging through the stats, I saw another situation that, to these old eye's, lacks explanation. Barnes is averaging 24:48 mpg, 7.1 ppg, while shooting 37.1% overall, and 30.7% from the three. Throw in 4.6 rebounds as well. He's taken 114 three point attempts, despite being one of the worse three point shooters on the team this year.

Casspi is averaging 19:26 mpg, 6.7 ppg while shooting 47.2% overall, and 40.7% from the three. Making him the best three point shooter on the team. And yet, he's only taken 27 three point attempts. Would someone like to explain that to me. He's also averaging 4.1 rebounds per game. Casspi is by far the more effective player, at least statically. Look, I don't blame Barnes for taking open three's. He's doing what he should be doing with an open shot. But I do blame Joerger for giving him that many minutes, and putting Barnes in the situation where he gets those shots, instead of someone that might actually make those shots.

Maybe the reason we miss so many open shots is because we have people who are poor shooters taking them. I know that Joerger has history with Barnes, and trusts him to do the right things needed on the floor. But at some point, you have to look at the results and say it's not working. I'll be honest, I've reached the point where I'd rather see Richardson get 8 or 9 minutes a game instead of Ben. He certainly can't do any worse, and who knows, he might surprise everyone. I also believe that Willie seems to play his best basketball when on the floor with Cousins. However, it's hard to argue that he earned the right to start.

Fact is, we don't have a legit starter at the PF position. It's sort of PF by committee. Tolliver is a backup PF and a poor rebounder. Gay and Casspi are true SF's, and Koufos is a center, as is Cousins. This is why I wanted Ryan Anderson during the summer. Whether you like him or hate him, he's far better than anyone we have playing that position now. But that's water under the bridge now.

Thank you

 

[Blob]

Temple has a 58% TS vs career of 51% TS. He's making this three at 40% vs 35% for his career. Can't argue with these numbers. Along with terrific defense, he is worthy of promotion to starter, no doubt, relative to flotsam and jetsam manning that spot to date.

I can't argue with Temple being inserted as starter if it happens, how could anyone?! It could be Joerger knows a good thing when he has it, doesn't want to disrupt the flow Temple has found as spark off the bench.

Given how many opportunities they have been granted, and how often they have failed, and how Ben is at an all-time low in terms of confidence and effectiveness, I'd be inclined to bench him, play Temple as a starter, and Malachi as back-up SG. How much more do you need to see from Ben and Affalo to conclude they suck....and need a new perspective and a few DNP-CDs to self-reflect and reassess? This isn't rocket science.

 

[ppine]

Coach J does really have the horses to race with other than #15. You can talk about it all you want. If Joerger was not a decent coach, there is no way the Kings could have won 4 in a row.
Wait a year and then we will know what kind of a coach he is.

 

[Blob]

Lawson
Temple
Casspi
Gay
Cousins

I've flip-flopped Ty and Darren but otherwise that's the starting five I've been asking for all season.

Off the bench I'd use:

Collison
Afflalo
Barnes
Tolliver/WCS
Koufos

Afflalo should be able to post up opposing 2nd unit guards and Collison adds some scoring punch. Koufos to me is a very solid backup center.

Just for one game can we see this?

Gay is not a PF, doesn't want to play PF. Same goes for Omri. I do like the idea of swapping out Collison for Lawson, since I think Collison can more likely regain his shooting stroke with second unit:

New Starters?
----------------
Lawson
Temple
Rudy
Willie
Boogie

Throwing Willie in there with the starters could be worth a look....since he stinks off the bench. Maybe he will have better luck on the floor with two scorers (Rudy, Boogie) and a better set-up man in Lawson who can throw him lob passes.

If something about Joerger has been disappointment, besides inability to get this group to play defense, it has been his unwillingness to experiment. He's stubborn. He sticks with line-ups and rotations that don't work. The alternative is not necessarily the answer, but its worth a look for look sake.