Dave Joerger and the obvious simple things

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#31
Coach J does really have the horses to race with other than #15. You can talk about it all you want. If Joerger was not a decent coach, there is no way the Kings could have won 4 in a row.
Wait a year and then we will know what kind of a coach he is.
* doesn't

The Kings won 4 in a row b/c Boogie was HOF vs Portland at home and we beat two terrible teams (76ers and Minny) by rallying from 4th quarter deficits. The win in Utah was impressive but beat a team on of back-to-back by one point when they were w/o Rodney Hood. That win was impressive but this formula is NOT sustainable when you play better teams and when Boogie is not beast mode.

I didn't think the game @ Portland was that surprising. That game was called returning to the mean with 40% career shooters shooting their career norms, underachievers continuing to underachieve, and Boogie playing like a mortal being with 3-4 defenders geared to stop him.
 
#32
Yeah, that 4-game win streak simply proved that when other teams miss a lot of open 3's, and the Kings make 50% of their 3's, they can win in the NBA.
Not that much of a revelation.

I agree with bajaden and funkykingston's lineups which support sactownfan's long-time championing of a change in the starting lineup.
It's become grossly apparent that the best 5 are not starting on the Kings team, because of coach stubbornness (and limited options).
Hopefully Joerger is seeing the inevitability of this lineup, since he actually tried the majority of it for the start of the 3rd quarter last game.
 
S

sactownfan

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#33
Yeah, that 4-game win streak simply proved that when other teams miss a lot of open 3's, and the Kings make 50% of their 3's, they can win in the NBA.
Not that much of a revelation.

I agree with bajaden and funkykingston's lineups which support sactownfan's long-time championing of a change in the starting lineup.
It's become grossly apparent that the best 5 are not starting on the Kings team, because of coach stubbornness (and limited options).
Hopefully Joerger is seeing the inevitability of this lineup, since he actually tried the majority of it for the start of the 3rd quarter last game.
Thank u ! Amen
 
#34
Gay is not a PF, doesn't want to play PF. Same goes for Omri. I do like the idea of swapping out Collison for Lawson, since I think Collison can more likely regain his shooting stroke with second unit:

New Starters?
----------------
Lawson
Temple
Rudy
Willie
Boogie

Throwing Willie in there with the starters could be worth a look....since he stinks off the bench. Maybe he will have better luck on the floor with two scorers (Rudy, Boogie) and a better set-up man in Lawson who can throw him lob passes.

If something about Joerger has been disappointment, besides inability to get this group to play defense, it has been his unwillingness to experiment. He's stubborn. He sticks with line-ups and rotations that don't work. The alternative is not necessarily the answer, but its worth a look for look sake.
Rudy has said that he's fine with playing PF as long as he knows what his role is. And statistically Gay/Casspi at the forward spots was a positive combination under Malone, Corbin and Karl.

If WCS could rebound at all I'd be onboard with giving him a shot. I thought when the Kings drafted him (and he was the guy I wanted them to take) that he could be great next to Boogie and just about ideal if he could consistently knock down 15-18 footers. But he's struggled defensively and is really inept on the glass.

There are very few lineups in the league where Casspi or Gay can't reasonably cover the opposing starting PF.
 
#35
There are very few lineups in the league where Casspi or Gay can't reasonably cover the opposing starting PF.
Warriors - Green
Spurs - Aldridge
Rockets - Anderson
Clippers - Griffin
Jazz - Favors
OKC - Sabonis
Grizz - Green

Funky not to pick on you but I don't think Rudy or Omri match up against any of the starting PF's on the 7 teams ahead of the Kings in the West. Rudy at starting PF is one of the things I hated about Karl's line ups last season. Like many Kings Fans I was counting on Willie being the stud PF we need.

Otherwise I am fine with all the changes suggested in the starting line up in this thread. It is worth a try, although I am not convinced the changes translate to wins as easily as described.
 
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sactownfan

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#37
Rudy has said that he's fine with playing PF as long as he knows what his role is. And statistically Gay/Casspi at the forward spots was a positive combination under Malone, Corbin and Karl.

If WCS could rebound at all I'd be onboard with giving him a shot. I thought when the Kings drafted him (and he was the guy I wanted them to take) that he could be great next to Boogie and just about ideal if he could consistently knock down 15-18 footers. But he's struggled defensively and is really inept on the glass.

There are very few lineups in the league where Casspi or Gay can't reasonably cover the opposing starting PF.
Absolutely!!!!!! Yes thank u!!! Today's NBA involves PF basically being SF's... it's small now (kinda 6'9ish) he doesn't care what he plays as long as we aren't depending on him to guard tim Duncan hahaha...
 
#38
Warriors - Green
Spurs - Aldridge
Rockets - Anderson
Clippers - Griffin
Jazz - Favors
OKC - Sabonis
Grizz - Green

Funky not to pick on you but I don't think Rudy or Omri match up against any of the starting PF's on the 7 teams ahead of the Kings in the West. Rudy at starting PF is one of the things I hated about Karl's line ups last season. Like many Kings Fans I was counting on Willie being the stud PF we need.

Otherwise I am fine with all the changes suggested in the starting line up in this thread. It is worth a try, although I am not convinced the changes translate to wins as easily as described.
The only guys on that list that I'd worry about knocking Rudy around down low are Aldridge and maybe Draymond Green. I'd much prefer Gay guarding Anderson or Jeff Green than Cousins. Rudy played Blake pretty well IMO. Sabonis shouldn't scare anyone. I think he's a very solid post defender and he's expanded his shooting range but he's not a threat down low.

I wanted Willie to stake his claim to a starting job next to Boogie but he flat out hasn't earned it.
 
#40
Rudy has said that he's fine with playing PF as long as he knows what his role is. And statistically Gay/Casspi at the forward spots was a positive combination under Malone, Corbin and Karl.

If WCS could rebound at all I'd be onboard with giving him a shot. I thought when the Kings drafted him (and he was the guy I wanted them to take) that he could be great next to Boogie and just about ideal if he could consistently knock down 15-18 footers. But he's struggled defensively and is really inept on the glass.

There are very few lineups in the league where Casspi or Gay can't reasonably cover the opposing starting PF.
Fair point. Might be 5-10 teams where it would be challenge match-up but no reason to be married to the current starting line-up at all. I think to try to snap Collison out of his slump, his worst in at season and half, you may want to move him to the bench. And if you put more scoring up front with Omri/ Rudy at forwards, you could theoretically get away with a "non-scoring" backcourt in Temple and Lawson.

One problem would be Koufos and Willie in the second unit. Thats a fiasco waiting to happen. So Willie is benched....and while we are benching scrubs, allow me to bench a couple more....

New Starters
Lawson - PG
Temple - SG
Omri - SF
Rudy - PF
Boogie - C

Bench
Collison
Malachi
Tolliver
Skal
Koufos

Benched
Barnes
Ben
Willie

The bench is a little (to a lot) shaky with two rookies and guys up and down so you'd probably want to make sure Rudy or Boogie is on floor with second unit at any one time. Regardless, with our coach, the odds of this rotation happening is 0%.
 
#41
The only guys on that list that I'd worry about knocking Rudy around down low are Aldridge and maybe Draymond Green. I'd much prefer Gay guarding Anderson or Jeff Green than Cousins. Rudy played Blake pretty well IMO. Sabonis shouldn't scare anyone. I think he's a very solid post defender and he's expanded his shooting range but he's not a threat down low.

I wanted Willie to stake his claim to a starting job next to Boogie but he flat out hasn't earned it.
Rudy Gay - 6' 8" 230 lbs

Warriors - Green - 6' 7" 230 lbs
Spurs - Aldridge - 6' 11" 260 lbs
Rockets - Anderson - 6' 10' 240 lbs
Clippers - Griffin - 6' 10 " 251 lbs
Jazz - Favors - 6' 10 " 265 lbs
OKC - Sabonis - 6' 10" 240 lbs
Grizz - Green - 6' 9" 227 lbs

These guys all check Centers on a regular basis. I just hate to see Rudy physically out matched night in night out like last season. Aldridge and Favors are beasts in the middle against players Rudys size:eek:
 
#42
Unless I'm mistaken from watching the NBA the past few years, PF's seldom eat teams alive anymore from the inside (paint).
It's too easy to send doubles and/or hack the big guy when he gets the ball near the paint. The league totally lets smaller players hit the hands and arms of bigger players more often then the reverse.

PF's can dominate teams by shooting from the outside (Aldritch, Griffin, Brow), shooting 3's (Anderson, Green), or being set up by guards for alley-oops and layups.

One of the only PF's that outmuscles anyone anymore is Z-Bo. And he doesn;t play as many minutes as he used to.
 
#43
Unless I'm mistaken from watching the NBA the past few years, PF's seldom eat teams alive anymore from the inside (paint).
It's too easy to send doubles and/or hack the big guy when he gets the ball near the paint. The league totally lets smaller players hit the hands and arms of bigger players more often then the reverse.

PF's can dominate teams by shooting from the outside (Aldritch, Griffin, Brow), shooting 3's (Anderson, Green), or being set up by guards for alley-oops and layups.

One of the only PF's that outmuscles anyone anymore is Z-Bo. And he doesn;t play as many minutes as he used to.
All true to a degree. But there is more to playing PF than scoring. Size and muscle play a part in rebounding, boxing out, setting picks, etc. Honestly look at that list of 7 PF's from the WC teams ahead of the Kings. Is Rudy a physical match for those guys? I don't think so.
 
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glassman

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#46
Honestly the Matt Barnes thing makes some modicum of sense if you squint reeeeeally hard and count to ten but the lack of Temple was inexcusable, especially after Lawson twisted his ankle and left the game.
as Grant and many other media have pointed out Matt has been out of freaking control this year. His numbers are gawd awful and he's just so damaging on and off the court. If I'm divac he's out of here for a coke... save Joerger from this doomed love affair he has

Temple is simply one of our best players... I think he's #2 most important... I just don't understand why he didn't get back in the game.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#48
I guess if one were to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt, you could make the argument that Barnes is probably the player with the most familiarity of Joerger's system on the roster.

Having a player who knows what Joerger wants out of the team on the floor could only help bring the other players along. It does take more than an offseason to instill a new system, especially if the last system was Karl junkball.

In theory.

And I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'd much prefer seeing Omri out there making dumb mistakes than Barnes. Casspi brings more positives. He's also way superior to Barnes, character wise.
 
#49
I guess if one were to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt, you could make the argument that Barnes is probably the player with the most familiarity of Joerger's system on the roster.

Having a player who knows what Joerger wants out of the team on the floor could only help bring the other players along. It does take more than an offseason to instill a new system, especially if the last system was Karl junkball.

In theory.

And I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'd much prefer seeing Omri out there making dumb mistakes than Barnes. Casspi brings more positives. He's also way superior to Barnes, character wise.
I am giving Joerger the benefit of the doubt. I think he is placing a premium on grit/grind and that's why Matt is playing. Matt does some things the way Dave want's them done. Same for KK.

I don't believe Dave cares at all whether we get 8 seed, and I also don't think he cares at all if the fan base second-guesses him right now. I think the most important thing to him is to demonstrate that if you play with grit - you get minutes. A turnover here and there or a mental mistake is forgivable but he wants you to grind as Matt does.

Kayte said on the radio this morning that Dave said "if WCS wants minutes, he has to outplay Kosta and that hasn't happened yet".

I like it - I like having a coach so sure of himself that he is going to stick to his plan regardless... and that plan is "you grind - you play". Not saying Omri doesn't grind by the way, but Coach could perceive him as a bit of a pretty boy - maybe he still wants Omri to raise it up a notch.
 
#50
Warriors - Green
Spurs - Aldridge
Rockets - Anderson
Clippers - Griffin
Jazz - Favors
OKC - Sabonis
Grizz - Green


Funky not to pick on you but I don't think Rudy or Omri match up against any of the starting PF's on the 7 teams ahead of the Kings in the West. Rudy at starting PF is one of the things I hated about Karl's line ups last season. Like many Kings Fans I was counting on Willie being the stud PF we need.

Otherwise I am fine with all the changes suggested in the starting line up in this thread. It is worth a try, although I am not convinced the changes translate to wins as easily as described.
huh? Omri and Rudy can easily stick with these 3. Funky is right, only about 5 or 6 PF's in the league have the ability to punish small-ball PF's in the post.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#51
its pretty simple really we are starting 3 guys that have not and would not start on any other team.

collison
Temple
Tolliver

those are bench players. Ty was a starter but his age pushes him to the bench this late in career. Same with Barnes. Kosta was a bencher as well except for denver
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#52
I am giving Joerger the benefit of the doubt. I think he is placing a premium on grit/grind and that's why Matt is playing. Matt does some things the way Dave want's them done. Same for KK.

I don't believe Dave cares at all whether we get 8 seed, and I also don't think he cares at all if the fan base second-guesses him right now. I think the most important thing to him is to demonstrate that if you play with grit - you get minutes. A turnover here and there or a mental mistake is forgivable but he wants you to grind as Matt does.

Kayte said on the radio this morning that Dave said "if WCS wants minutes, he has to outplay Kosta and that hasn't happened yet".

I like it - I like having a coach so sure of himself that he is going to stick to his plan regardless... and that plan is "you grind - you play". Not saying Omri doesn't grind by the way, but Coach could perceive him as a bit of a pretty boy - maybe he still wants Omri to raise it up a notch.
I think this is why he said that its going to be a year and a half process before it clicks.....it's something I've pointed out with the young guys and Joerger, he's going to make them earn it and he's going to knock the entitlement out of them or they will fall by the wayside. Lots of ways to develop young guys and this is one of them. I'm completely on board with this.

Here's how Sac has tried to develop its young guys. Draft guys in the lottery, play rookies big minutes simply because they were lotto picks. I know for a fact that TRob and Ben and WCS were and have. Been full of themselves with this entitlement of being a lottery pick...as in they think they are somebody before actually accomplishing anything. TRob made noises when he wasn't getting PT, Ben and or his agent demanding a trade because of reasons, WCS saying he fell victim and thought he was entitled to minutes this year.

So now, along comes Joerger who is charged with helping changing the culture and this is part of the process with the young guys. It's how winning teams and organizations do it and in part because they don't need the rooks to play minutes but for the lower tier teams, it's a catch 22 as you want to play these guys as they have a need. Joerger is the right guy here.
 
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glassman

Guest
#53
I think this is why he said that its going to be a year and a half process before it clicks.....it's something I've pointed out with the young guys and Joerger, he's going to make them earn it and he's going to knock the entitlement out of them or they will fall by the wayside. Lots of ways to develop young guys and this is one of them. I'm completely on board with this.

Here's how Sac has tried to develop its young guys. Draft guys in the lottery, play rookies big minutes simply because they were lotto picks. I know for a fact that TRob and Ben and WCS were and have. Been full of themselves with this entitlement of being a lottery pick...as in they think they are somebody before actually accomplishing anything. TRob made noises when he wasn't getting PT, Ben and or his agent demanding a trade because of reasons, WCS saying he fell victim and thought he was entitled to minutes this year.

So now, along comes Joerger who is charged with helping changing the culture and this is part of the process with the young guys. It's how winning teams and organizations do it and in part because they don't need the rooks to play minutes but for the lower tier teams, it's a catch 22 as you want to play these guys as they have a need. Joerger is the right guy here.
Well He did just start Ben for however many (too many) games before finally ending his career essentially. All those starter mins were pretty undeserved.

But minus that I agree with u on his handling of the rookies and WCS.

Who btw WCS is a diva that's clearly more concerned about his designing of watches then grabbing a rebound.

I do also think that when he said he was going to find minutes for Richardson he should've actually done that. Once again coach sees the obvious, says the obvious only to go against himself the very next game... shooting guard is a problem with this team. There really no reason not to play Richardson at least a few minutes here and there. I'm not saying he's gonna be awesome but some scoring and 3pt shooting would help.
 
#54
I was all on the Jorger sucks at rotations train early on as well but as I have watched its pretty apparent that no matter what combos we use we are probably going to lose regardless because most everyone on this team sucks and I would venture to guess that maybe 5-6 probably not be on another NBA roster and another 3-4 would be deep rotation guys. Basically we have 4 legit NBA players (Rudy,Cuz,Kosta,Temple) and its rare for all 4 of those guys to be clicking every night. Teams have film on this years version of Cuz now and although he still gets his numbers he has to grind it out alot more and is starting to get shut down here and there.

This roster is trash up and down so its fine that Joerger tinkers and experiments as long when we have a roster thats ready to win he doesn't pull this crap. He has brought alot of positives to the table and theres no doubt that hes a legit NBA coach (havent had one in 10 years). This season is a lost cause anyway so I say just let him do his thing.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#55
Well He did just start Ben for however many (too many) games before finally ending his career essentially. All those starter mins were pretty undeserved.

But minus that I agree with u on his handling of the rookies and WCS.

Who btw WCS is a diva that's clearly more concerned about his designing of watches then grabbing a rebound.

I do also think that when he said he was going to find minutes for Richardson he should've actually done that. Once again coach sees the obvious, says the obvious only to go against himself the very next game... shooting guard is a problem with this team. There really no reason not to play Richardson at least a few minutes here and there. I'm not saying he's gonna be awesome but some scoring and 3pt shooting would help.
We can only speculate on how or why he does things. Ben is the oldest young guy or rather has the most experience. The staff did rave about Ben going into the regular season. No one can say that this regime did not give Ben the opportunity. I can only speculate on why. Ben does have some tools but he seemingly is going backwards.

If the Kings go through the entire year without Richardson getting any opportunity, I'll admit that I would be a little disappointed.
 
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glassman

Guest
#57
Managing this roster is like moving deck chairs on the Titanic. They're trying to change the culture, but most of these players won't even be with the team past next season.
I 100% agree this team bad and barely an 8th seed team.

With that said the room for error is slim. If we can't optimize this terrible roster and lineups then we are doomed from the start. Dave is taking waaaaaaay to long to do that. Yes this team is not in anyway ideal far from it.... but the starting Affalo for as long as he did... starting Koufos as long as he did... not starting temple as long as he did. Starting Ben for as long as he did. See where this is going?.... this whole season can be summed up by Dave waiting waaay to long to do the obvious...

Even when we do run the best (laughable) players we got together we still are not a strong team.
 
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glassman

Guest
#58
not playing temple at the end of the game ...who is in every category you could possibly analyze statistically (and with ur eyes) one of our best 3 players... that was just damning...

Kayte called him out on this blunder post game and coaches response was....

Temple had been playing so hard recently that he just needed to take the rest of the night off and sit (basically). What the hell dave! 2-3 more mins was gonna put temple in the red? LOL! I swear coach
 
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glassman

Guest
#59
I was all on the Jorger sucks at rotations train early on as well but as I have watched its pretty apparent that no matter what combos we use we are probably going to lose regardless because most everyone on this team sucks and I would venture to guess that maybe 5-6 probably not be on another NBA roster and another 3-4 would be deep rotation guys. Basically we have 4 legit NBA players (Rudy,Cuz,Kosta,Temple) and its rare for all 4 of those guys to be clicking every night. Teams have film on this years version of Cuz now and although he still gets his numbers he has to grind it out alot more and is starting to get shut down here and there.

This roster is trash up and down so its fine that Joerger tinkers and experiments as long when we have a roster thats ready to win he doesn't pull this crap. He has brought alot of positives to the table and theres no doubt that hes a legit NBA coach (havent had one in 10 years). This season is a lost cause anyway so I say just let him do his thing.
Garret temple only played 24 mins yesterday... he shot 50% from the floor... he had 4 Rebs and 3 ast... 0 TECHNICAL FOULS... he was one of 4 players to be + ... Collision, Gay, Tolliver, Temple. Temple also has the discipline and heart that doesn't always show up in stats. He's without a doubt one of our top 3 players and Coach just sat him when we got within reach. crazy. Temple always makes this team better and has always been on the floor when we did comeback and win...


this isn't tinkering this is losing games that as hard as it is to believe could have been winnable.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#60
Garret temple only played 24 mins yesterday... he shot 50% from the floor... he had 4 Rebs and 3 ast... 0 TECHNICAL FOULS... he was one of 4 players to be + ... Collision, Gay, Tolliver, Temple. Temple also has the discipline and heart that doesn't always show up in stats. He's without a doubt one of our top 3 players and Coach just sat him when we got within reach. crazy. Temple always makes this team better and has always been on the floor when we did comeback and win...


this isn't tinkering this is losing games that as hard as it is to believe could have been winnable.
As odd as a decision as they may have seemed at the time, fact is we scored 39pts in the 4th quarter last night without Garrett, and made it a 2pt game in the final 30 seconds of the game. So the guys he was using instead got the job done.

If we had struggled or fallen apart and Temple was nowhere to be found that would be one thing. But Joerger has shown consistently he'll ride whatever hot hands he happens to find after half. Normally that's Temple, but tonight other guys almost pulled it off.
 
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