Discussion in 'Personnel moves' started by Folsomkingsfan, Mar 7, 2017.
I'm with you there. Nothing more frustrating than watching a team that can't rebound.
the same Alec Burks who always gets injured?
Have we discussed this guy?
I don't know much about him but just watched a few videos and he's a more fluid Tyreke that can shoot the 3. Shot .47% from downtown in 20 games in europe this past year.
Scroll down to Malik Monk. You'll either laugh or shake your head at the first comment.
I just hope Vivek doesn't honestly have any real input into the draft process. That would sink any hope I have of the Kings getting these picks right and starting to turn things around.
We have a glut at SG already
Or not care. He's a great prospect. Do want.
Sure he should have input. He should have input in putting more money into scouting to back up what his analytics are showing. He should have input into the type of locks that can buy for the war room and then surrender all keys so they can lock him out on draft night. Or lock him in the closet and only let him out to OK a trade. And I'm only partly kidding.......................
I have no problem with an owner expressing his opinion, as long as the GM and the scouting dept make the final decision.
I admittedly don't watch much college ball but my gut is telling me Fox is the guy to grab in this draft. I get the same feeling I got the year S. Curry was drafted. Not the same type of player obviously, just a gut feeling he is going to be a great player.
Jonathan Isaac is notably absent from that prospect breakdown. I wonder what the reasoning is for that.
I'm also getting more excited about Fox. Super quick and fun to watch. Seems like hes working on his only knock, shooting.
Nice link. I'm not as excited about this draft as most. We have no shot at Ball who's the generational talent imo. Of the guys we can get only Markkanen gets me excited. But with Vlade's drafting history to date I'll feel confident that he got the best player available on draft day.
I want to like fox but it seems every game I catch he has a underwhelming performance while Monk catches fire. Why not draft both of them lol.
So they are just going to ignore the fact that Vlade picked WCS, Skal and Papagiannis last draft huh... Well ____ em because I still think if Monk is there we gotta grab him and put him on the rock.
Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled we got Skal regardless of how it happened but 18 GMs passed on Skal before he was picked at #28 and that includes Vlade, twice. That's already looking like a mistake. If any of these guys had a crystal ball he would have been off the board much much sooner so I give Vlade partial credit but not full credit for taking him where he did.
About the Monk vs. Fox part of your post, if you only watched games in the middle of the season when Fox was working back from injury and Monk was carrying the team I could see why you would think that. I think they're very close in terms of overall talent but they are very different types of guards so even watching both of them at their best there are going to be people who prefer one over the other, it really just depends what you want to see from a lead guard. Defensive potential trumps everything else for me and then add to that Fox's speed and craftiness with the ball I think he's going to be impossible to stay in front of one on one the way the NBA game is officiated right now so my preference is the reverse of yours, strongly in favor of Fox. I'm undecided right now if I would take Ntilikina over Fox though.
Regarding your last thought: In a vacuum and ignoring team fit, I would put Fox over Ntilikina. That's why I have him at #3 on my big board and Ntilikina is outside of the top #5. However, I could see why we (meaning the Kings) could take Ntilikina over Fox. He simply seems to be a better fit with guys like Skal, Buddy, Bogdan and even Willie who all like to have the ball in their hands a bit. That's because I see Ntililikina as a better off ball player than Fox. Also, I think Fox could end up being one of the best slashing guards in the NBA but what use is that when Joerger seems to be more comfortable playing with 2 bigs? Will there be enough spacing to make use of Fox's talents?
To sum it up: essentially it comes down to the old question of "BPA" vs fit. And I still have no answer for it.
A guard that gets into the paint is useful no matter what kind of lineup is out there. The guard might not be able to get a shoe in layup but he will be able to pass it to whatever big has his man leave him to cover the potential layup.
Where this gets tricky for me is that they both have some things to work on. Fox is great at getting into the paint and collapsing the defense but the jumper needs some work obviously. Ntilikina is a better shooter right now and he's pretty crafty with the ball too but I don't think he has the same blow-by ability which means he's relying more on his jumper to create space for him to drive. Both of them are good defenders -- Fox has quicker feet but Ntilikina makes up for it with the bigger wingspan and both guys work hard on that end. If Fox can improve his jumper into a reliable weapon he's probably got the higher ceiling because guards who can get into the paint at will and get to the line are carving up the league right now. But then his jumper may never be a reliable weapon and Ntilikina's already is.
I agree with you though that Ntilikina looks like a safer pick for more of an off-the-ball role, but I don't know if that's what Joerger is looking for. Mike Conley's pre-draft projection was similar to De'Aaaron Fox -- a ball dominant guard with a shaky jumper -- and he thrived in Memphis under Coach Hollins and Coach Joerger. We have been playing two bigs but they're mobile bigs who would probably thrive next to a speedy guard who can get to the basket either by finishing oops or cleaning up the misses. The usual saying is that you can't teach size so all things being equal you go with the bigger player but more and more speed has been winning in the NBA and you can't teach speed either. I could talk myself into either one of them, but if it comes down to a choice between the two I'm stumped.
Bear in mind though that Joerger inherited the Grizzlies roster. Conley absolutely played well under him but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the type of PG coach wants.
I like Fox a lot. But "if he develops a jumper" is one of those statements that always worries me. That was what was said about Rubio and Elfrid Payton (who I wanted the Kings to draft) and it never happened. It doesn't happen as often as we'd hope. But Fox is still an uber quick PG who slashes to the hoop well and can be a top tier defensive PG. I wouldn't be upset, even if the jumper never comes around.
But barring the Kings lucking into the 2nd or 3rd pick I'm looking at Ntilinka and either Tatum or Isaac. I think Isaac actually has the higher floor as a 3&D guy and he may actually have the higher ceiling as well. What he may never have that Tatum likely could, is the ability to be the primary scorer for a good team.
Both Fox and Ntilikina are good at playing without the ball. The problem Fox has, and its the major concern for him, is what does he bring to the table offensively when he is playing off the ball? That's why improving his outside shot is so important for him. At minimum, he needs to be a consistent spot up shooter. But neither Fox, or Ntilikina are ball dominate in the sense that Rubio or Rondo are. Right now, the Kings are turning into a selfless team. No one cares who scores the ball. There's no apparent pecking order, and that makes for exciting basketball. Especially when you have shot makers at all positions.
When you list those players and say that they all have to have the ball in their hands a bit, what your saying is that they share the ball, and a PG that dominates the ball could/would have a detrimental affect on that ball movement. And I agree with that. However, as I said, I don't think either Ntilikina or Fox fall into that category. The deciding factor for me is whether I think Fox can cure his outside shot. If he can, then I think he can be the better player, but if not, then I have to go with Ntilikina.
I've been torn between Isaac and Tatum all year. I don't think there's any doubt, at least in my mind that right now, today, Tatum is the better player. One can argue that Isaac is the better defensive player, and that's fair, but Tatum isn't a slouch on defense, and he a far superior offensive player. So when choosing between the two, if you get that choice, it's a matter of who you think has the higher ceiling. Frankly, I'm not sure. Isaac is the better athlete, and has more size, but that advantage isn't huge. Right now, I think Id take Tatum, but I'd be happy with either one. How's that for a cop out?
I'm not sure how people got the idea that Fox is a ball dominate PG. To me, a ball dominate PG is a player like Rondo, or Rubio. Both players will dribble away most of the shot clock on most possessions. Fox doesn't do that. Consider that Kentucky's time of possession is somewhere around 14 seconds per possession, out of a 30 second shot clock. Of that 14 seconds, Fox may have the ball in his hands for half of the possession, and remember that includes the time bringing the ball up the floor. He plays fast, and makes quick decisions, and he does share the ball
I think it's fair to question if Fox will be able to do in the NBA what he does in college. How effective will he be in a half court set on a regular basis. Fox thrives by pushing the ball and getting into the lane before the other team sets its defense. That's not going to happen as often in the NBA. So some adjustment will be necessary, and personally, I think he has all the tools to make that adjustment. Once again, my main concern is his outside shot, which in his last six games has been very good, along with his midrange shot. I think his workouts will be important for him to prove to teams that he can shoot the ball.
The thing that encourages me about Fox's jump shot is 3-fold: 1. He has good form. 2. He's a good FT shooter 3. He shoots well when he is squared up (not off balance).
There are examples of guys who have developed the jumper at the pro level though. Mike Conley is one. Kemba Walker, Kyle Lowry, Jason Kidd. Those guys were pretty terrible from outside as Freshmen too and became very good in their primes. Ricky Rubio, Rajon Rondo, and Elfrid Payton are extreme cases. Those guys don't even like taking jumpers. There are signs that Fox is closer to that first group of guys who did figure it out than the second group of guys who didn't. It doesn't look like there are any major issues with his form for one thing. He did shoot better in high school. And his free throw shooting isn't great but it's respectable. He's only taken 62 threes this season and he's 7 for 12 in the last 6 games. I didn't have much hope for Payton becoming a good shooter but he does so well in so many other aspects of the game that he was still worth taking at that point in the draft for me. With Fox I think he'll at least be a respectable 34 or 35% shooter in a few years and you add to that great defense, solid rebounding from the PG position, and an uncanny ability to get by defenders and get into the paint and I think you have a great overall player without a lot of bust potential. Of course if you're looking for the next Steph Curry, he ain't it.
Ball dominant probably wasn't the right description to use -- I was making the comparison to Conley but he doesn't dominate possessions either. I guess I just meant that the primary reason you draft a De'Aaron Fox or a Mike Conley is because of what they can do with the ball in their hands. If you want to maximize their strengths you're going to want to put the ball in their hands and allow them to create shots for people. That's not necessarily true of a guy who is already a very good spot-up shooter who you can play off the ball in more of a Derek Fisher or Patrick Beverly role. I don't think you can have too many playmakers who can create off the bounce -- you just spread your offense around and attack from multiple angles. But you're going to struggle if you don't have anyone on the floor who can finish plays. I'm not really worried about Fox or Ntilikina in that respect, both players find ways to score.
Assuming we are not top 3, any combonation of Ntilikina, Fox, Isaac, and Tatum will make me happy. Hopefully thats a SF and PG combo. Although landing Jackson or Monk wont exactly break my heart.
Can't even watch the Sixers anymore.. they are competing, and as much as I want that pick to be top 8... they seem to be playing too well
I see it a bit differently. I see Fox as a great PG in the open court and the extra space of the NBA game IMHO makes him a more effective player in the NBA than he is in college where he still is a jet.
On bigs, with Skal and WCS, Kings have some of the quickest, more athletic big man who like to run. If the Kings want to play fast, then add Fox to that mix and it could be a pretty fun trio to watch and a nightmare for opposition to stop.
You and I would probably agree that Fox is a consistent jump shot away from being a genuine star in the making. I think by the time draft rolls around I can see Fox being a top 4-5 pick. Especially if he show that he can consistently hit a jumper in the workouts.
I am far from an expert but every time I see Fox he does something that makes me go WOW! To me his shot doesn't look to be completely broken and if I go back to previous drafts, guys like Mike Conley and even Kemba Walker had question marks with their shooting.
Ntilikina would be a nice get but with Fox you are potentially getting a franchise level guard.
1) Rubio is straight balling out of his mind. Finally seems to have a coach/system where he can thrive and be one of the best playmakers in the NBA.
2) Fox could probably challenge John Wall for quickness with the ball. He's an amazing athlete and his quickness can give him an edge to become a special player. Where he's probably ahead of Wall at this stage is the fact that he plays under control and very rarely lets his speed get him in trouble. Wall was pretty wild his first couple years. He's got great footwork too once he drives into the lane and has all those nifty little moves you see guys like Harden making to create space at the rim.
Here are a few clips from later in the year. Nothing in that shot leads me to believe it's anywhere close to broken.
Just out of curiosity is draftexpress.com down for everyone or is it just my device?
The draftexpress mock draft link doesn't work from google but if you go to their homepage it works from there.
I'm sold on Tatum. I highly doubt he falls outside the top 5 though. Duke players scare me but he's not having success because of the system. Kind of reminds me of Rudy Gay except with exceptional defense. If he's available I'd take him with our first pick.
Not sold at all on Monk. We need players that can do more than one thing. He's just too Kevin Martin like for me. Would be fine if we were already a solid team but we need someone that can either play at both ends of the floor or at least make his teammates better as well.
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