What exactly is the story with Giles' knees anyway?

#31
Giles has been a known commodity for a great number of years, those scouting services who do middle-school rankings all had him at the top of the class like 5+ years ago. He's been about 6'9" for a long time now.

I remember seeing this particular mix about 4 years ago and just thinking, "wow, he's gotta be one of the best PF prospects I've ever seen". This is before the injuries.

 
#33
Two years is the timetable to fully recover from ACL. The two year anniversary is coming up on second ACL tear this Fall. If there is anything positive to be taken from the article, it is that his injuries were contact injuries. Non-contact injuries are troublesome, because they imply a mechanical or anatomical issue that makes athlete more susceptible to "snapping in two" from running up and down the court. When a player is this fragile (see Greg Oden) he's not meant to play professional sports.

The advantage Giles has nowadays is that they can test and train his running gait so he is on balance and not favoring one leg over the other. I don't think was not possible when guys like Danny Manning and C-Webb blew out their knees. There should be a certain strength ratio between quads and hamstrings too and lateral mobility and endurance equal or surpassing to his peers to give himself, training and coach staff confidence. This will all go on behind the scenes. I think he will be in good hands.
 
#35
I hope the Kings just focus on rehabbing him. I've heard talks of sending him to Reno but that isn't going to keep him from getting reinjured.
No but it allows you to give him consistent game time against lesser opposition. You can bring him along at a pace you see fit, give him minutes, build up his confidence and let him develop (he missed a whole season as a sophomore in HS and was playing limited minutes at Duke in his only season).

Amongst developing players, Reno should be used to rehabilitate young players and build up their confidence so that when they do get NBA games they are confident in their body and the work they have done.
 
#36
Giles could turn out to be great, but he's got a long road ahead. Luckily, having a competent staff is going to pay off and allow this young man to gain his confidence back. If he comes back at even 75%, that could be borderline All-Star type talent.

What I really want to see is him at 100%. He could be a hell of a player and I am going to pray that it happens! Work hard Mr. Giles!

I am also a physical therapist and I do agree with that article that was brought up earlier. He should be brought up slowly and given limited minutes in the G-League while he works on his strength. He's really got to strengthen the muscles in the legs as much as possible to reduce the risk of re-injury in the future. If there is a silver lining in the injury history is that he wasn't even considered an adult when they happened.
 
#37
I would consider red shirting him this year and focus on full rehabilitation and skill development(if medical staff deems it a good course of action). No reason to rush him like he was in college. He looked like he was being forced to play to salvage his draft stock.
 
#38
@jcwkings

I agree about not rushing him at all. No reason to. However what I've read about his time at Duke was that coach K and staff did not rush him for his stock or at all. That they were cautious and had his long term health as priority one.
 
#39
No but it allows you to give him consistent game time against lesser opposition. You can bring him along at a pace you see fit, give him minutes, build up his confidence and let him develop (he missed a whole season as a sophomore in HS and was playing limited minutes at Duke in his only season).

Amongst developing players, Reno should be used to rehabilitate young players and build up their confidence so that when they do get NBA games they are confident in their body and the work they have done.
I'm just talking squarely about his knees and not his game. I'd rather see them rehab his knees for as long as possible and then give him some run in Reno when they are absolutely certain that the knees are as healed as they can be.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#40
I would consider red shirting him this year and focus on full rehabilitation and skill development(if medical staff deems it a good course of action). No reason to rush him like he was in college. He looked like he was being forced to play to salvage his draft stock.
You couldn't be more wrong. He didn't play in the first 10 or 11 games of the season, and when he finally did get on the floor for his first game, he only played 4 minutes. You have to remember that he had a clean bill of health from the team doctors. The most minutes I remember him getting in a game was 15 minutes, and that was toward the end of the season, but even then, there were games where he only played 5 or 6 minutes. I felt like Duke was being very careful with him, and to be honest, they probably didn't need him by the time he was ready to play. It was almost like his playing time was rehab.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#41
To those of you who are saying to send him down to Reno for the season, why? Am I missing something? Last I heard, he was physically cleared to play and it's been over a year since the ACL procedures...why sit him out if he is showing he can play? I'm not feeling that.
 
#42
To those of you who are saying to send him down to Reno for the season, why? Am I missing something? Last I heard, he was physically cleared to play and it's been over a year since the ACL procedures...why sit him out if he is showing he can play? I'm not feeling that.
It's more that he needs to shake off the rust and rebuild his timing and rhythm. Over the last two years he's played only a smattering of minutes in college. It would probably be better for him to slowly ramp up the level of competition by getting him some D-League experience than to throw him to the NBA wolves
 
#43
To those of you who are saying to send him down to Reno for the season, why? Am I missing something? Last I heard, he was physically cleared to play and it's been over a year since the ACL procedures...why sit him out if he is showing he can play? I'm not feeling that.
I don't know but I could venture to guess that the Kings are planning on getting a stretch 4 before the season starts which won't leave many minutes at PF since Skal, the stretch 4 and even WCS will take up the minutes there. If they feel like he's ready to play, they will probably give him some run in Reno to at least get on the court. They could also just play it safe and let him ride the pine in Sacramento just to make sure those knees are ok.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#44
It's more that he needs to shake off the rust and rebuild his timing and rhythm. Over the last two years he's played only a smattering of minutes in college. It would probably be better for him to slowly ramp up the level of competition by getting him some D-League experience than to throw him to the NBA wolves
I'm good with him starting in the G-League and then if his play warrants it, call him up to the team and bring him along in the same manner that they did with Skal, Papa & Malachi rather than having him sit out the entire NBA season.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#45
I don't know but I could venture to guess that the Kings are planning on getting a stretch 4 before the season starts which won't leave many minutes at PF since Skal, the stretch 4 and even WCS will take up the minutes there. If they feel like he's ready to play, they will probably give him some run in Reno to at least get on the court. They could also just play it safe and let him ride the pine in Sacramento just to make sure those knees are ok.
There is zero indication that his knees are not OK. I know we as fans want to take the safe approach but if he says he's able to play, the doctors say he is able to play with no problems then it's in the best interest of the franchise to showcase himself in spot minutes and as the season progresses, up the minutes.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#46
I am also a physical therapist and I do agree with that article that was brought up earlier. He should be brought up slowly and given limited minutes in the G-League while he works on his strength. He's really got to strengthen the muscles in the legs as much as possible to reduce the risk of re-injury in the future. If there is a silver lining in the injury history is that he wasn't even considered an adult when they happened.
Honest question from a PT view - why would you send him to the G-League instead of just slowly build up his minutes at the NBA level?

He's not going to give it 50% down there, and with the quality of play at a lower level, I would think his risk of injury may even be greater due to sloppy play and possibly harder less-professional professional fouls, if you catch my drift. Plus everything about the team facilities, coaching and training is going to be a step down. He has NBA skills, so what is the advantage of sending him down?

I get if he is 100% cleared after missing half a season sending him down for a week or two to get game-fit, but just for the purpose of bringing him along, keep him part of the main team for all the advantages that brings to both the player and the team chemistry itself.
 
#47
Honest question from a PT view - why would you send him to the G-League instead of just slowly build up his minutes at the NBA level?

He's not going to give it 50% down there, and with the quality of play at a lower level, I would think his risk of injury may even be greater due to sloppy play and possibly harder less-professional professional fouls, if you catch my drift. Plus everything about the team facilities, coaching and training is going to be a step down. He has NBA skills, so what is the advantage of sending him down?

I get if he is 100% cleared after missing half a season sending him down for a week or two to get game-fit, but just for the purpose of bringing him along, keep him part of the main team for all the advantages that brings to both the player and the team chemistry itself.
Agree.

I think you keep him here. Let Youngman keep a close eye on him, full full rehab the knee, and let him get used to the NBA game.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#48
Agree.

I think you keep him here. Let Youngman keep a close eye on him, full full rehab the knee, and let him get used to the NBA game.
I figure the only reason to send him to G-League is if you suddenly decide he needs to be playing 36 minutes a night mid-season and he's been limited to under 10 minutes. But given he's a first year guy who is going to be expected to earn his minutes I almost expect him to be earning playing time respective to his rehab/fitness level. Otherwise he'll likely get his 5-10 minutes and the chance to prove his game when our other guys get into foul trouble or garbage time
 
#49
Honest question from a PT view - why would you send him to the G-League instead of just slowly build up his minutes at the NBA level?

He's not going to give it 50% down there, and with the quality of play at a lower level, I would think his risk of injury may even be greater due to sloppy play and possibly harder less-professional professional fouls, if you catch my drift. Plus everything about the team facilities, coaching and training is going to be a step down. He has NBA skills, so what is the advantage of sending him down?

I get if he is 100% cleared after missing half a season sending him down for a week or two to get game-fit, but just for the purpose of bringing him along, keep him part of the main team for all the advantages that brings to both the player and the team chemistry itself.
I supposed you could just tell him that he can't play period, won't really hurt anything. I'm just saying that he already played 11 minutes a game at Duke without any injury or issues and did fine. He may not have played well, but that's a different issue. I don't see why he can't continue to play 10 minutes a game, that's also part of his training. It's called specificity of training. If you want to be good in basketball, you practice basketball related activities. It's why I always have thought that practicing anything else is dumb. Players in the past have practiced boxing (Boogie, Ben) and I always wondered who told them to do that. Does not help them become a better basketball player whatsoever.

There are a ton of variables in play when setting up an exercise or training regimen for someone. First, you have to decide what you are trying to accomplish. Is it strength, endurance, or power? Each of these will lead you down a different path. Once you have chosen your avenue, you begin your training. My guess is that the training staff picks strength, as it combines endurance and power.

Structurally, his knees are intact right now and technically he can play and has already played. My guess is he will play at some point this year, but will receive a ton of attention off the court. The goal is to strengthen the muscles around the knee in order for muscles to absorb as much force as possible and sparing the knee joint itself. However, as someone pointed out in that article, his were contact injuries. It wasn't caused by weakness. That's why it's unlikely that he sits out the entire season.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#50
I supposed you could just tell him that he can't play period, won't really hurt anything. I'm just saying that he already played 11 minutes a game at Duke without any injury or issues and did fine. He may not have played well, but that's a different issue. I don't see why he can't continue to play 10 minutes a game, that's also part of his training. It's called specificity of training. If you want to be good in basketball, you practice basketball related activities. It's why I always have thought that practicing anything else is dumb. Players in the past have practiced boxing (Boogie, Ben) and I always wondered who told them to do that. Does not help them become a better basketball player whatsoever.

There are a ton of variables in play when setting up an exercise or training regimen for someone. First, you have to decide what you are trying to accomplish. Is it strength, endurance, or power? Each of these will lead you down a different path. Once you have chosen your avenue, you begin your training. My guess is that the training staff picks strength, as it combines endurance and power.

Structurally, his knees are intact right now and technically he can play and has already played. My guess is he will play at some point this year, but will receive a ton of attention off the court. The goal is to strengthen the muscles around the knee in order for muscles to absorb as much force as possible and sparing the knee joint itself. However, as someone pointed out in that article, his were contact injuries. It wasn't caused by weakness. That's why it's unlikely that he sits out the entire season.
Ah ok, my thought is that he's probably ok to play limited minutes at the NBA level which would be preferable to extended minutes at a lower level. What's your opinion on that? From the PT perspective.
 
#51
Ah ok, my thought is that he's probably ok to play limited minutes at the NBA level which would be preferable to extended minutes at a lower level. What's your opinion on that? From the PT perspective.
I would start him slowly, see how he responds physically, and adjust playing time accordingly. I think by the end of the season, he may be getting some really solid minutes.

I do think the biggest benefit will come from the off the court stuff. His biggest issue is confidence and we need to really get him to believe in himself again.
 
#52
They babied him at Duke btw.

There was a rumor before the college season that Nike wanted to sit him out the entire season.

Duke certainly, IMO, would've been better off playing him more minutes but they kept him on a short leash (at the detriment of the team), Injuries to Amile Jefferson and Marques Bolden didn't help.
 
#53
There is zero indication that his knees are not OK. I know we as fans want to take the safe approach but if he says he's able to play, the doctors say he is able to play with no problems then it's in the best interest of the franchise to showcase himself in spot minutes and as the season progresses, up the minutes.
He looked half as athletic at Duke as he did in high school. I'm just saying it would be foolish to take a chance when we don't need him this year anyway.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#54
He looked half as athletic at Duke as he did in high school. I'm just saying it would be foolish to take a chance when we don't need him this year anyway.
In the games I watched him play with Duke, I saw plenty of athleticism. He may not have the same athletic ability as he did in high school or he may get it back and sometimes get even more explosive. You never know with these things, it depends on the rehab, time put in, strengthening the muscles around the knees to have them with hold contact, etc. We could definitely use him this year, doesn't have to be out of the gate but if he proves he is worthy of minutes, Joerger should reward him. Skal can't play all game long.
 
#55
I think you keep him here. Let Youngman keep a close eye on him, full full rehab the knee, and let him get used to the NBA game.
Yes, this.
BUT, then at some point in his development, he may benefit from more playing time in Reno than what little playing time he's getting in Sacramento. If not, then I trust the Kings to know what's best for him and his continued development. But no redshirting this guy! That's just overreacting.
 
#56
Yes, this.
BUT, then at some point in his development, he may benefit from more playing time in Reno than what little playing time he's getting in Sacramento. If not, then I trust the Kings to know what's best for him and his continued development. But no redshirting this guy! That's just overreacting.
I see maybe 5-15 mins a night first Q of season. Occasional 20 minute game. He's got confidence in his game, just needs more confidence in his knees. Build that up slow.
 
#57
In the games I watched him play with Duke, I saw plenty of athleticism. He may not have the same athletic ability as he did in high school or he may get it back and sometimes get even more explosive. You never know with these things, it depends on the rehab, time put in, strengthening the muscles around the knees to have them with hold contact, etc. We could definitely use him this year, doesn't have to be out of the gate but if he proves he is worthy of minutes, Joerger should reward him. Skal can't play all game long.
I'm no expert and did not watch him play - but from what I have read ... if I were him I'd have sandbagged a bit - nothing malicious but I just would not risk going balls out and injure myself. Not with NBA draft coming up - I would want to get them checks locked in first.. then turn myself over to some real pro trainers etc, and then see what I could do.

It's not a farfetched narrative that this guy could pay off big time
 
#58
Can anyone remember a player or prospect with a similar injury history who has ever returned to form? Shouldn't we know after a year or so what level of an athlete he is going to be going forward? I've just always thought that by the time a player was ready to step on the court that they would be 100% or close to it, and not that their athletic ability would return gradually over a few seasons.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#59
Can anyone remember a player or prospect with a similar injury history who has ever returned to form? Shouldn't we know after a year or so what level of an athlete he is going to be going forward? I've just always thought that by the time a player was ready to step on the court that they would be 100% or close to it, and not that there athletic ability would return gradually over a few seasons.
One player I can think of that came back from microfracture surgery was Amare Stoudemire back in the 2005-2006 season and he still managed to prolong his career until 2016. I remember watching him return even more athletic than he used to be and that goes back to what I mentioned in a thread about working with trainers to strengthen the body parts around your knees so one is less susceptible to injury. Not saying it won't happen, it can happen at any given time but the idea is the same.
 
#60
I'm no expert and did not watch him play - but from what I have read ... if I were him I'd have sandbagged a bit - nothing malicious but I just would not risk going balls out and injure myself. Not with NBA draft coming up - I would want to get them checks locked in first.. then turn myself over to some real pro trainers etc, and then see what I could do.

It's not a farfetched narrative that this guy could pay off big time
I think you nailed it. He's healthy. He just needed to play his one year of college. Duke helped him to make sure he gets through the year injury free so he can get his pay day. There is no reason to believe that a year after surgery, he can't go all out. If he's not in rehab and he's cleared to play, then he needs to play so the Kings can see what they bought sooner rather than later.