Was It Realy Peja's Fault For The Kings Poor Start To The Season?

[jaysutton2003]

As I watch the new Kings team I begin to wonder whether or not it really was Peja who was solely responsible for the teams poor play… Sure Peja was not playing to his full potential, but neither was anyone else on the team. Don’t get me wrong I love Artest and feel he brings a need much needed presence this team has never seen, but none of the players were playing with the needed energy they suddenly have. Before the season started NBA analysts around the league picked kings to finish in the top 3 seeds. If the whole team would have brought that intensity to the table they would have indeed been right up there with Dallas and San Antonio. The WHOLE TEAMS poor play was the reason they quickly fell out of the playoff race. Artest does change this team dramatically but is it really correct to place the teams struggles squarely on Peja’s shoulders, or perhaps is the whole team to blame for their lack-luster/lack of energy start?

 

[VF21]

No way this ends well...

Peja was a symptom of a team in total disarray, IMHO. I'd just as soon leave it at that. He's better in INdiana and Artest is better here. Both players win, both teams win, and fans of both win.

 

[atxrocker]

No, it wasn't all Pedja's fault. though he certainly was a part of it. had more to do with overall team chemistry.

 

[Diabeticwonder]

What do you mean? This turnound is completely attributable to Monia and Potapenko. Where have you been?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Peja and Artest are two completely different players who bring a lot of different things to the game. So I'd say it wasn't Peja's fault that we did so poorly in the first half of the season. Also watching him on Indiana even though his numbers are up he seems to dissapear during stretches of games while in reality he is just hanging out on the perimeter.

While I'll give Peja a pass, I will blame Petrie and the Maloofs and anyone else involved in the decision making/management that led the team to move Webber to appease Peja and make him the cornerstone of the franchise even after he had made a trade request. While moving Webber may or may not ultimately have been the right thing to do, the accepted rationale behind the move was a major miscalculation that backfired immensely and was directly responsible for the poor play and lack of on-court leadership at the start of this season.

 

[piksi]

it was a bad mix and lot's of injuries. It took time for Kevin anc Cisco to develop. Now, mix is right and we are healthier.

When in doubt - blame it on Finley

 

[kingrooster]

Yeah, I don't blame Peja for the terrible play so much as I credit Artest for turnaround. It wasn't HIS fault, it was everyone's fault. However, if Peja were still on the team, I think we'd be in a different situation than we are now. But, he's been pretty successful with Indiana, so it looks like both teams did well.

 

[FullAB]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that a lot of new pieces were added in the last year that are just now beginning to gel and mature.....credit Petrie and Adelman IMHO....

 

[jaysutton2003]

Yeah, I don't blame Peja for the terrible play so much as I credit Artest for turnaround. It wasn't HIS fault, it was everyone's fault. However, if Peja were still on the team, I think we'd be in a different situation than we are now. But, he's been pretty successful with Indiana, so it looks like both teams did well.

the main reason peja is doing good in indy is because the pacers are using peja how he should be used. They have been running peja off off screens the same way they used reggie miller. i am just very excited we finally have a defensive minded player to be the face of our franchise! This franchise is finally no longer looked at as a bunch of puss's but instead a tough nosed team who does what it takes to win!!

 

[BLNINJA #81]

I have to be honest.. I believe Peja was at least 80% the problem and I was so glad he was traded. I don't have any hate for him, but it didn't help when all I could semi-perceive is Vince Carter pt. 2. I think he tanked it on purpose.

 

[bigbadred00]

You can't win games when all of your players are just good offensive players. Even the Suns have Marion.

If you look at Peja's effort, it's also different. Yes we weren't playing him ideally but he wasn't playing ideally for us either. He looks motivated in an Indy Uniform and I'd rather have a motivated player than an un-motivated one every day of the week.

Peja wasn't the sole reason for the problem but he definitely didn't help the situation.

 

[love_them_kings]

I have to be honest.. I believe Peja was at least 80% the problem and I was so glad he was traded. I don't have any hate for him, but it didn't help when all I could semi-perceive is Vince Carter pt. 2. I think he tanked it on purpose.

I don't think Peja tanked on purpose, but I do believe he was a big part of the problem. Not 100%, maybe not even 80%, but over 50% for sure. They were talking about it on the Rise Guys this morning and saying how many problems Peja created (their words, not mine) with his attitude, and his lack of energy and excitement. They also said there was a riff in the team because "at least one of the starters" had problems with Peja babying his pinkie injury. They also noticed how Peja's back problems have miraculously disappeared since he left Sac. They said that one person with a negative attitude could bring down a team's spirits very easily, especially when it's a starter. Anyway, those were all their words, not mine, but it was an interesting conversation.

Bottom line for me, the team has turned around so much with Peja leaving that it's impossible to say he wasn't part of the problem. And, obviously, the Kings were part of the problem for him, because he is playing much better too. So, in a nutshell, a good trade for all. Very few trades are really a win/win for both teams, and this one looks like it is!

 

[MrBiggs]

Management issue.

There's no doubt in my mind that Peja was mailing it in the last two years. However, it all comes down to why. It wasn't Webber that Peja was dissatisfied in. It was the way the Kings handled Vlade's departure.

 

[Kev.in]

Peja was a big factor, the biggest factor I'd say. He was supposed to be the best player on the team. How else would you explain the turnaround the very instant that he was shipped out?
He had to come into this season and score big for the Kings to win and he couldn't. He wasn't just hurting us on the scoreboard, it was his general attitude and lack of interest. You can't have a major-minute starter play with that attitude. His teammates couldn't have felt like they had a fair shot on some of those nights, with the feeling that they were going out there with a guy who wasn't really into it. It's a chemistry issue. Right now everyone is on the same page and trusts eachother. When you have someone who is aloof on the court, or playing without any passion it will always affect the rest of the team. If Peja wanted to, he could've stepped his game up and shown some fire and maybe him and Bibby could've gunned their way to 5 or 6 more wins. He didn't even come close to expectations and it worked out great for us in the end.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If Peja wanted to, he could've stepped his game up and shown some fire and maybe him and Bibby could've gunned their way to 5 or 6 more wins.

I don't think so. He was just a horrible fit for this incarnation of the team. I'm not noticing a huge difference in the way he is playing in Indiana other than that he's hitting more shots. He isn't creating his own offense or doing it all on his own, he's just a good fit for their team.

And that totally ignores the defensive end of things which is where we've really stepped up since Artest came in. We can win on off shooting nights now.

 

[Rowdyone]

Peja's impending free agency and an inability by management to justify giving him a max contract (which someone will) without giving up Brad/Mike or half the bench to pay him.

 

[bigbadred00]

Are you sure? His fG% jumped, Rebounding Jumped. Did you see his +/- while he was on the team and what he's doing in Indy, it's like night and day.

On the Kings in 2003-2004:

Peja +6.2 on / -.9 off Net 7.2

2004-2005

Peja +1.8 on / 2.5 Off Net -.7

2005-2006 Kings

Peja -3.7 On / +4.3 Off Net -8

Also Production per 100 Possessions was 14.6 Own, 15.1 Opp

2005-2006 Indy

Peja 8.2 + on / .7 Off Net 7.4

Also Production per 100 Possessions was 21.3 Own, 12.6 Opp

Hmmm..those are dramatic changes in stats just through the years and switching teams. Vince Carter was known to dope his stats:

-8.6 on / -.4 off on Toronto
+3.3 on / -8.6 off in NJ (+10.9)

Carter this year is +3.5 on / -10.6 off.

Look at the stats, they are dramatic too. What a change of scenery can do to a player. I can post Artest's stats but they are much more consistant actually slightly worse on the Kings in individual production.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Are you sure? His fG% jumped, Rebounding Jumped. Did you see his +/- while he was on the team and what he's doing in Indy, it's like night and day.

His numbers are better but the other day I was watching a Pacers game and he was just standing around the perimeter completely invisible in the offense unless they kicked it over to him to shoot. He was also the Pacers leading scorer that game. Compare that to all the things Artest does when he doesn't have the ball and that's why I don't think its merely a matter of him mailing it in (which he was) vs. being a poor fit for the current team (which he would still be).

 

[VF21]

Peja Stojakovic was a big part of putting this team on the NBA map. I do NOT think he intentionally tanked but I do think he had lost whatever motivation he had to put it all out there on the court. If he can get back some joy in Indiana, more power to him. It was a good move for him and it's looking like a pretty danged good move for us.

I'd much rather have the team we have now and the chance of getting into the playoffs than the team we had before the trade and the chance of ending up in the lottery.

 

[bozzwell]

Are you sure? His fG% jumped, Rebounding Jumped. Did you see his +/- while he was on the team and what he's doing in Indy, it's like night and day.

On the Kings in 2003-2004:

Peja +6.2 on / -.9 off Net 7.2

2004-2005

Peja +1.8 on / 2.5 Off Net -.7

2005-2006 Kings

Peja -3.7 On / +4.3 Off Net -8

Also Production per 100 Possessions was 14.6 Own, 15.1 Opp

2005-2006 Indy

Peja 8.2 + on / .7 Off Net 7.4

Also Production per 100 Possessions was 21.3 Own, 12.6 Opp

Hmmm..those are dramatic changes in stats just through the years and switching teams. Vince Carter was known to dope his stats:

-8.6 on / -.4 off on Toronto
+3.3 on / -8.6 off in NJ (+10.9)

Carter this year is +3.5 on / -10.6 off.

Look at the stats, they are dramatic too. What a change of scenery can do to a player. I can post Artest's stats but they are much more consistant actually slightly worse on the Kings in individual production.

Yes, but +/- stats are inseparable form the team and make no sense as an indivudal stat. If you happen to share the floor with Shaq at his hayday for example, your +/- would be Shaq-like.

Vince was mailing it in on purpose and he said so much. Pedja was mailing it in subconciously, just the way he is - pouty and passive. The change of scenery benefitted him as much as it did Artest (who was not allowed to play at all by Indy), in as much that he's been granted a fresh start and clean slate.

After Webber got traded, Pedja's days were numbered too. We were not THAT team anymore, and Pedja went too far down the road he chose to ever have fresh start as a King. I am not suggesting that Pedja orchestrated Webber's exit (as some did at the time), but he certainly distanced himself from the team by the trade request and conspicious absence of any resemblance to "Pedja of old" since Webber got back from the injury.

Was it about Vlade, or about Pedja's ego, I don't really care, but I know that I never saw "Pedja of old" in last two years and he deserves blame for that even if he wasn't "properly used" or even if the rift was not all/at all of his own making.

The important thing is that he did give us 5 great years and netted us Artest in the end. For that I am greatfull and he is still my 2nd favorite ex-King and I choose to look at last 2 years as forgetable but not sabotage.

 

[Bricklayer]

No.

It was only "Peja's fault" to the degree you blame him for what he is not. Peja did not make us lose. He just cannot make you win. No different from Mike, Brad, SAR or any of the others. The "fault" was we lacked a leader in the worst way. And no, Peja is not a leader. But neither was anybody else.

Artest is largely responsible for "making us win", but that doesn't mean anybody was "making us lose" before, just that nobody before could make us win.

 

[The L Train]

Peja was a great role player and a great match for the early 2000 Kings. He was perfect when Chris and Vlade drew attention inside, to be able to kick it out and hit the three.

Other than that, he doesn't do all that much. He's very good as what he does, but Artest is the post up/inside/infinite intensity we needed to get this team going.

 

[BigWaxer]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is wrong with people? Why do some always have to find a reason to blame others? Why put a negative spin on things, things are going well now. Peja was not a part of the problem before we traded him.

The team with Peja did not have a leader... IT wasn't Peja, it was the fact the team lacked a leader. Peja was still Peja no different a player then 2002. He is the same Peja, same skills and same deficiencies.

Our leaders were Webb & Vlade, we lost them and the team tanked. It was fairly obvious we lost that leadership when Webb was traded last year. When we got Ron we got a leader. Someone that the team could go to for the leadership that they so needed.

It’s not like RON guards all 5 players. The team has a leader. If it was Ron for any other player (except Mike)I imagine you would be saying the same thing.

Was BRAD the problem? NO lack of leadership was the problem.

 

[bigbadred00]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is wrong with people? Why do some always have to find a reason to blame others? Why put a negative spin on things, things are going well now. Peja was not a part of the problem before we traded him.

The team with Peja did not have a leader... IT wasn't Peja, it was the fact the team lacked a leader. Peja was still Peja no different a player then 2002. He is the same Peja, same skills and same deficiencies.

Our leaders were Webb & Vlade, we lost them and the team tanked. It was fairly obvious we lost that leadership when Webb was traded last year. When we got Ron we got a leader. Someone that the team could go to for the leadership that they so needed.

It’s not like RON guards all 5 players. The team has a leader. If it was Ron for any other player (except Mike)I imagine you would be saying the same thing.

Was BRAD the problem? NO lack of leadership was the problem.

Are you serious? Have you watched the games. Yet was a different Peja. Peja's heart wasn't into the game, he didn't go after loose balls, he wasn't trying as hard as he did 2 seasons ago. I know Peja is what he is but he looked nothing like he did 3 seasons ago. If you want to give him a cop out of why he is playing so much better now than before so be it.

Peja is seriously playing much more motivated in a Pacer's uniform this year than he ever did for us.

The reason we're winning right now is not only Ron Artests impact defensively it's that we have a leader. But you honestly feel that Peja was playing at 110% every game, if he was he was seriously bad at 110% b/c he looks much better right now. Everyone should be giving it there all if there in the NBA, obviously some people don't (Jerome James for instance).

You can't use that argument b/c last year when Peja was here and Webber was here, he played the same way. When Webber got back in the fold the year before, he played exactly the same. You can deny it but I wouldn't be suprised if he wasn't still mad some way at Adelman for giving Webber the keys to the driver's seat when he returned. I know players have done it in the past, why is Peja too good to do that. Obviously his performance on court dictated that with career low stats over the last season and a half with the team.

 

[BigWaxer]

LOL I should ask the real question... Are you serious for asking me if I am serious? His heart wasn't into the game? You talked to him? You know him? Oh you’re his cousin?

Are you kidding me...Peja is playing in a more controlled system now. He gets the ball when coach says he gets the ball. In RA's system it’s more a system of the open man takes the shot. Not a knock on either system but in Indiana Peja is having plays run for him every time he touches the ball.

Sorry but all the players were struggling. I don't buy that argument at all. If your blaming Peja for our Pre-Artest problems your kidding yourself.

 

[Entity]

with Peja we lacked versatility on the offense. Peja was perimeter only player as is Bibby and when you got 2 of those and no real inside game except for bonzi wells you are hurting. now with Artest you have more of an inside game and still capable of beating teams from the perimeter. If you look at the games we won in the beginning we won a lot of games because of bonzi's inside play we even went to him in crunch times for several games. And alot of ppl pin the team MVP on Bonzi for that. Now we have Ron and his is Bonzi but Better on defense and better shooter and creating. Bonzi clearly has rebounding down pat. I never disliked Peja as a person but that was the position we could get alot better in the whole time at any time but was reluctant to pull the trigger on it. It finally happend and us a fans are reeping the benefits. Go Kings.

 

[VF21]

Oh please...do not fall prey to this kind of thing. It's exactly what I meant with the "this will not end well" comment after the first post.

I happen to feel Peja DOES own some of the blame. But what difference does it make? Why even argue about it? In this case, I happen to pretty much agree with bigbadred. It was pretty clear to me that Peja simply didn't have any enthusiasm for the game.

But again, why argue about this or let it get under your skin?

Let's think about the NOW. We have a Laker game coming up. THAT's what is important IMHO. We all pretty much agree we're better off with ARtest than we were with Peja. Doesn't that make it all moot?

 

[BigWaxer]

I agree with you in part Entity..

Peja was not a versatile player. But he never was... He wasn't the problem when we made our run, he wasn't the one that traded key players. Peja was Peja and still is Peja.

The problem is after Webb was traded everyone expected him to become the leader he is not. They expected him to take over the team. He is not that type of player, never has been, never will be.

I don't understand how its Pejas fault when he is not getting the ball? Everyone knows he needs plays drawn up for him, well that didn't happen this year and that is Peja's fault. I just cannot understand that reasoning.

 

[Entity]

yeah peja has a great game if he is on the team with a superstar PF that is versatile but he just wasn't the right cog for a team of semi stars. Actually if we had Artest and Peja it would probably work well.

 

[BigWaxer]

Ya 110% agree Entity...

The problem is with fan expectations as I said to start the season. People put a lot on Peja, more then he was/could take on. Either way it doesn't really matter. As VF said what matters is tomorrow and the Lakers and the playoffs. Peja/Webb/Vlade/Bjax/ all in the past...We have a new exciting team in front of us and thats what matters. We need to give them all the ARCO thunder they can handle.

I think I am in the minority here so I am going to leave it at the above before I get in trouble.