Trade Rudy for ?

#1
I don't discount Gay's value to the team at all. He is a great player, if a bit inconsistent. However unless he intends to resign, we need to get used to playing without him anyway. I would like the best possible return we can get, but if we are indeed losing him eventually it is a situation that needs resolved so we know where we stand moving forward with the trade deadline looming,not to mention playoffs or draft picks to consider.
 
#2
I don't discount Gay's value to the team at all. He is a great player, if a bit inconsistent. However unless he intends to resign, we need to get used to playing without him anyway. I would like the best possible return we can get, but if we are indeed losing him eventually it is a situation that needs resolved so we know where we stand moving forward with the trade deadline looming,not to mention playoffs or draft picks to consider.
The decision to keep or Trade Rudy is a gamble. Decide to retain him and the gamble is that he will sign a deal with the Kings. The last time Rudy did this Vivek fired Mike Malone who Rudy had just re-upped to play for. Rudy might just sign elsewhere. If you trade Rudy you gamble that the player/players coming in play at least as well as Rudy. But for me it comes down to this. If you do not trade Rudy and he leaves you get nothing.....nada.....zip......zilch. If you trade Rudy you have who you traded for assuming it is not another expiring deal.

So for me the path with the least risk is to trade Rudy. This also applies to Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, Omri Casspi and Matt Barnes. Rudy and Matt do have players options. Matt may stay, Rudy will test the market. So it becomes imperative to land a PG who is signed for a couple of seasons. I trade Rudy and Darren. Then sign Omri, Ty and Matt.

I like Cameron Payne but there are others out there. Who do you like that the Kings might trade for?
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#3
I think it's a forgone conclusion that Rudy isn't going to stick around. They have to move him for something even if it's something that doesn't excite anyone. The Kings are far enough into the season to know that while not having him will hurt in some ways, having him probably isn't going to mean much of a difference in the grand scheme. Even if his presence made a difference does it matter if he's not sticking around anyway?

The tough thing about a trade is that the only teams that will be interested in him are most likely contender or playoff teams so the assets coming back aren't going to be that great. The Kings will know if they are sellers or buyers soon enough. In a perfect world the Kings are able to solidify another position of need for the long term but that's unlikely because there just aren't many options I don't think.
 
#5
The decision to keep or Trade Rudy is a gamble. Decide to retain him and the gamble is that he will sign a deal with the Kings. The last time Rudy did this Vivek fired Mike Malone who Rudy had just re-upped to play for. Rudy might just sign elsewhere. If you trade Rudy you gamble that the player/players coming in play at least as well as Rudy. But for me it comes down to this. If you do not trade Rudy and he leaves you get nothing.....nada.....zip......zilch. If you trade Rudy you have who you traded for assuming it is not another expiring deal.

So for me the path with the least risk is to trade Rudy. This also applies to Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, Omri Casspi and Matt Barnes. Rudy and Matt do have players options. Matt may stay, Rudy will test the market. So it becomes imperative to land a PG who is signed for a couple of seasons. I trade Rudy and Darren. Then sign Omri, Ty and Matt.

I like Cameron Payne but there are others out there. Who do you like that the Kings might trade for?
I can't, or rather wouldn't feel comfortable, answering who do I like that the Kings might trade for. The reason being, is that if I were making these decisions, I would likely have a better feel for where Demarcus' head and heart is than I do as a fan. If I were in Vlade ( and Ken )'s shoes, this is the determing factor for everything going forward.

DMC is our best player and asset and there are nuances to many of the angles with regards to him. All these nuances and possible directions should influence everything else, including what to do with Rudy. Not to mention you have Vivek, at least verbally, committed to convincing Rudy to stay.

Questions and possibilities that tie in with DMC and thus the rest of the team moving forward:

1) Do you feel confident he will stay
2) If you do, is it with strings or expectations attached? i.e. "Only if we make the Playoffs this season" or " Only if DMC is confident we make them by next season"
3) Would DMC stay through a major overhaul resulting from missing the playoffs and retaining our top ten pick this year and or trading assets for young players and or picks?

I am sure there are a few, if not many more, variables but you get the gist of what I am thinking. So with regards to Rudy, a lot has to do with numbers 2 and 3. If number 1 is that you do not feel confident DMC will be here long term, then you would get young players or picks for Rudy.

If playoffs need to be in the very near future it makes things more difficult, since you would need to either retain Rudy somehow, or get assets in return that can help in the very near future. If number 3 is in play, that against all recent trends in NBA player behavior DMC is down for whatever and will be a King till the end no matter what happens, then things get more interesting with regards to what we can do moving forward with our entire roster. You have the possibility of a ton of cap space next season as well as Rudy as an asset to move, and young prospects in Skal,Malachi,WCS, Papa, and hopefuly Bodanavic next season.

I will stop my ramblings for now. Just wanted to illustrate how I am thinking with regards to Rudy and really our whole team moving forward. It all comes back to DMC and if he and Vlade have spoken on levels that answer questions 1-3, and more.
 
#6
I think it's a forgone conclusion that Rudy isn't going to stick around. They have to move him for something even if it's something that doesn't excite anyone. The Kings are far enough into the season to know that while not having him will hurt in some ways, having him probably isn't going to mean much of a difference in the grand scheme. Even if his presence made a difference does it matter if he's not sticking around anyway?

The tough thing about a trade is that the only teams that will be interested in him are most likely contender or playoff teams so the assets coming back aren't going to be that great. The Kings will know if they are sellers or buyers soon enough. In a perfect world the Kings are able to solidify another position of need for the long term but that's unlikely because there just aren't many options I don't think.
Firstly, I agree with your post..
For the record , this conversation spun off from the poll in the Weekly Rankings thread. I generally don't propose hypothetical trade scenarios for many of the reasons I outlined in my second post in this thread.

Unless I missed a direct quote of some kind, Rudy made it clear he would not pick up his option, but never said directly get me out of Sac no matter what. Now all signs indicate that's his thinking. "welcome to basketball Hell" springs to mind. However it can be argued with Vivek vowing to wow Rudy in to staying, and the fact that when the comments from Rudy to the media were made it was during the gold rush of the new shiny big contracts being handed out, that the chance remains he could resign on another more lucrative contract.

I have been pretty clear about how I feel about Rudy with regards to the Kings. I think he is a great individual player, and helps the team by virtue of being the second best player. However I do not like Rudy brand basketball in the context of the Kings and moving forward, with or without DMC.
 
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#7
Firstly, I agree with your post..
For the record , this conversation spun off from the poll in the Weekly Rankings thread. I generally don't propose hypothetical trade scenarios for many of the reasons I outlined in my second post in this thread.

Unless I missed a direct quote of some kind, Rudy made it clear he would not pick up his option, but never said directly get me out of Sac no matter what. Now all signs indicate that's his thinking. "welcome to basketball Hell" springs to mind. However it can be argued with Vivek vowing to wow Rudy in to staying, and the fact that when the comments from Rudy to the media were made it was during the gold rush of the new shiny big contracts being handed out, that the chance remains he could resign on another more lucrative contract.

I have been pretty clear about how I feel about Rudy with regards to the Kings. I think he is a great individual player, and helps the team by virtue of being the second best player. However I do not like Rudy brand basketball in the context of the Kings and moving forward, with or without DMC.
My fault our posts got moved over here SK:)

I think the Kings need a PG that is signed beyond this season. I want a PG that shoots a good percentage, can get his own shot, break down a defense and plays some defense. Thus my pick of a trade target is Cameron Payne. OKC just needs to be willing. I offer Rudy and Darren for Cam and Sabonis. This will probably require other players to match the contracts. I would add Koufos to get Kanter.
 
#8
I do find it surprising that people keep bringing up young, unproven players like Payne.

I personally cannot see us doing this type of trade. IMHO, if or when Rudy gets traded it will be for a veteran player. Names like Knight or Dragic are more likely to be our targets than someone like Payne.

Think about it. The team clearly wants productive veteran players and it wants to start winning NOW. Not in 2 years time but now. Other than Cousins, Gay is our best, most valuable player. You are not going to give one of those up for a shot at a young kid unless you are in a full blown rebuild mode which we are clearly not.

Someone like Paul Millsap would make a hell of a lot of sense for us BUT I don't think we will go down that path as he is an expiring contract like Rudy and half a season is not enough to convince someone to -re-sign with the franchise.

Whoever the player is that Rudy gets traded for, I suspect he would have to be a capable scorer who can take off some of the already very heavy workload from Cousins. Payne is not going to do it. I would love to see us get a scoring, lead guard but I somehow can't see that happening unless a team like Phoenix would want to mover Bledsoe and there are no indications of this being the case.

I think the reason why we are holding out on this is because we are hoping that there will be a team out there that would want to blow it up and trade out a star type player that is under a contract for a couple of year. Example being with Miami and Dragic. I doubt that Miami would trade Dragic without getting a pick of sorts in return given that they traded away two future firsts to get him in the first place. New CBA will make it tougher for a team like Miami and LAL to rebuild via free agency by getting top free agents.
 
#9
My fault our posts got moved over here SK:)

I think the Kings need a PG that is signed beyond this season. I want a PG that shoots a good percentage, can get his own shot, break down a defense and plays some defense. Thus my pick of a trade target is Cameron Payne. OKC just needs to be willing. I offer Rudy and Darren for Cam and Sabonis. This will probably require other players to match the contracts. I would add Koufos to get Kanter.
No worries :D

I agree our PG situation is grim. I don't know a ton about Payne but most everyone on here seems to like him as a prospect so I will defer to those more knowledgeable. As for Sabonis, again I am just going by what little I know of OKC's situation, but I think they are unlikely to include him. I could be wrong.

Aside from PG and even without trading Rudy, we are still faced with our PF position lacking. The Cousins/Koufos starting front court is not ideal in my opinion. WCS, much to my dismay, has not grabbed the opportunity like some including myself had hoped. So we have had to run various players at the 4. If you throw in losing Rudy making Casspi and Barnes our SF depth moving forward, we have short term answers currently at 3 positions.
A whole lot of question marks.
 
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dude12

Hall of Famer
#10
I do find it surprising that people keep bringing up young, unproven players like Payne.

I personally cannot see us doing this type of trade. IMHO, if or when Rudy gets traded it will be for a veteran player. Names like Knight or Dragic are more likely to be our targets than someone like Payne.

Think about it. The team clearly wants productive veteran players and it wants to start winning NOW. Not in 2 years time but now. Other than Cousins, Gay is our best, most valuable player. You are not going to give one of those up for a shot at a young kid unless you are in a full blown rebuild mode which we are clearly not.

Someone like Paul Millsap would make a hell of a lot of sense for us BUT I don't think we will go down that path as he is an expiring contract like Rudy and half a season is not enough to convince someone to -re-sign with the franchise.

Whoever the player is that Rudy gets traded for, I suspect he would have to be a capable scorer who can take off some of the already very heavy workload from Cousins. Payne is not going to do it. I would love to see us get a scoring, lead guard but I somehow can't see that happening unless a team like Phoenix would want to mover Bledsoe and there are no indications of this being the case.

I think the reason why we are holding out on this is because we are hoping that there will be a team out there that would want to blow it up and trade out a star type player that is under a contract for a couple of year. Example being with Miami and Dragic. I doubt that Miami would trade Dragic without getting a pick of sorts in return given that they traded away two future firsts to get him in the first place. New CBA will make it tougher for a team like Miami and LAL to rebuild via free agency by getting top free agents.
The reason Payne keeps coming up is that the teams, it was reported by Woj, were close on a trade involving the two players and then Payne got hurt.
 
#13
The reason Payne keeps coming up is that the teams, it was reported by Woj, were close on a trade involving the two players and then Payne got hurt.
Payne starting his rehab in the D-League this Tuesday.

Keep an eye on his progress, if he shows he's healthy, a trade may be coming sooner, rather than later.
 
#14
In the end Rudy is still a flawed player and not really what teams are looking for from the SF position.
All teams currently on a playoff spot either have decent to great PG's, who create shots for the rest of the roster, or SF's, that are ahead of Rudy Gay.
The teams with great PG's will be looking more for catch and shoot type of players with 3 point range and great D for the SF position and the teams with good SF's don't need Rudy as a starter.
So it all comes down to a rebuilding team as a trade partner and those teams would love to get picks back for their above average players and not only a expiring contract.
We can't trade picks. So after all we should be happy, if we are able to get a young but somewhat unproven piece for Rudy Gay.
It's that or nothing in return and hoping to resign Rudy to a big contract, which would be the dumbest move ever.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#15
Indiana for Ellis and a 1st

Have Ellis/Lawson off the bench
Why would they include a 1st? Ellis is on a very good deal nowdays and despite a down year since he no longer has the ball in his hands he could be productive elsewhere getting the ball I don't see any reason why they include a first that would be a down right steal if the Kings got that deal.
 
#16
Why would they include a 1st? Ellis is on a very good deal nowdays and despite a down year since he no longer has the ball in his hands he could be productive elsewhere getting the ball I don't see any reason why they include a first that would be a down right steal if the Kings got that deal.
When Ellis isn't productive, because he no longer has the ball in his hands, how productive would be Rudy Gay for the Pacers, who already have Paul George,, RobinsonIII, C.J. Miles, Stuckey and Thad Young on the wings and Big Al as the fall back ISO option off the bench?
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#17
When Ellis isn't productive, because he no longer has the ball in his hands, how productive would be Rudy Gay for the Pacers, who already have Paul George,, RobinsonIII, C.J. Miles, Stuckey and Thad Young on the wings and Big Al as the fall back ISO option off the bench?
He wouldn't imo all it would do is probably stunt Myles Turner development but my main point is Indiana would be psychotic to include a first, A lot of people would probably say but the Suns got a 1st for Markieff but Markieff is the Wizards starting PF making less money than Anthony Tolliver and has like 2-3 years left on his deal (7-8per year)where as Rudy expires and you would have to pay him most likely a ton to keep him where as Morris is a nothing contract which still allows you money to sign another key piece (or in there case extend the likes of Portor/Kelly Obrue JR).
 
#18
He wouldn't imo all it would do is probably stunt Myles Turner development but my main point is Indiana would be psychotic to include a first, A lot of people would probably say but the Suns got a 1st for Markieff but Markieff is the Wizards starting PF making less money than Anthony Tolliver and has like 2-3 years left on his deal (7-8per year)where as Rudy expires and you would have to pay him most likely a ton to keep him where as Morris is a nothing contract which still allows you money to sign another key piece (or in there case extend the likes of Portor/Kelly Obrue JR).
Exactly. That's what bothers me with all the talk about trading Gay. I honestly can't think of a team, which would really need Rudy's skillset, but I don't know if this is only because I'm so fed up with him or if this simply is the 2017 reality of the NBA.
I just can't see a team giving up higher first round picks or solid rotation players for half a season of Rudy Gay.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#19
Exactly. That's what bothers me with all the talk about trading Gay. I honestly can't think of a team, which would really need Rudy's skillset, but I don't know if this is only because I'm so fed up with him or if this simply is the 2017 reality of the NBA.
I just can't see a team giving up higher first round picks or solid rotation players for half a season of Rudy Gay.
The Pelicans but no one on the forum (and rightfully so) aside from me wants Solomon Hill maybe they would send us Tyreke back but I don't know they are the only team with something that's semi decent that could send us back something maybe a Collison/Rudy/Mclemore for Holiday/Hill type deal? Bulls/Thunder are another team that might want to trade and have pieces.
 
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#20
The Pelicans but no one on the forum (and rightfully so) aside from me wants Solomon Hill maybe they would send us Tyreke back but I don't know they are the only team with something that's semi decent that could send us back something maybe a Collison/Rudy/Mclemore for Holiday/Hill type deal?
I would take Solo for sure. But the Pel's are 6-4 over the last 10. Holiday is healthy. Tyreke is back. They have Cunningham, who shoots 40% from 3 and Solo, who is shooting better since Holiday returned (38% in Dec). Why pair AD with Rudy?
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#21
I would take Solo for sure. But the Pel's are 6-4 over the last 10. Holiday is healthy. Tyreke is back. They have Cunningham, who shoots 40% from 3 and Solo, who is shooting better since Holiday returned (38% in Dec). Why pair AD with Rudy?
They could use his scoring honestly the best deal/deals that I like is what @twslam07 suggested in the build around Cousins thread where we end up with Mathews/Solo/James Johnson/Dragic and Chandler (although the Wilson Chandler part of the deal is a real long shot imo).
 
#22
They could use his scoring honestly the best deal/deals that I like is what @twslam07 suggested in the build around Cousins thread where we end up with Mathews/Solo/James Johnson/Dragic and Chandler (although the Wilson Chandler part of the deal is a real long shot imo).
Maybe you are right and I'm just too pessimistic. But in my mind Rudy Gay doesn't provide much besides scoring in the paint and from mid range. He is not a good defender, 3 point shooter nor playmaker.
A team like the Pels, which is built around two creating guards and a top-notch PF/C with range and great transition game doesn't look like a better fit for Gay than SAC. And I personally don't think Rudy fits all that well next to DMC.
If the Pel's move Holiday their playmaking takes a huge hit and their catch and shoot guys like Hield, Cunningham or Moore will be less effective.
And on top of that they just signed DMO, who has a pretty good postgame aswell.
Tyreke may indeed be expendable, but I'm not a fan of Tyreke and his knees are a red flag.

Obviously I would be extremely happy with the trade outcome you mentioned, but I simply don't think it's realistic.
 
#23
I still think the Thunder make the most sense. They need another scorer on that team and they have basically no chance of acquiring one other than by trade because they have no cap space or picks coming. Trading for Rudy solves that issue because they get his bird rights meaning they can offer him as much money as they want. Fit wise I guess OKC is about as good as it gets for him. I think he would start at PF for them, removing Sabonis from the starting lineup and playing next to good defenders in Adams and Roberson.
 
#24
Orlando is the most appealing trade partner to me. Something like this:

Kings Recieve: Nikola Vucevic, Elfrid Payton, and Mario Hezonja

Orlando Recieve: Rudy Gay, Darren Collison, and Willie or Ben (whoever they prefer)

A Vucevic and Cousins pairing would be great, Payton has potential at only 22, and Hezonja could develop into a better player. I would follow up this trade with another one, possibly Trevor Ariza for Kosta.

Possible Starting Lineup:

Elfrid Payton
Garret Temple
Trevor Ariza
Demarcus Cousins
Nikola Vucevic
 
#25
Orlando is the most appealing trade partner to me. Something like this:

Kings Recieve: Nikola Vucevic, Elfrid Payton, and Mario Hezonja

Orlando Recieve: Rudy Gay, Darren Collison, and Willie or Ben (whoever they prefer)

A Vucevic and Cousins pairing would be great, Payton has potential at only 22, and Hezonja could develop into a better player. I would follow up this trade with another one, possibly Trevor Ariza for Kosta.

Possible Starting Lineup:

Elfrid Payton
Garret Temple
Trevor Ariza
Demarcus Cousins
Nikola Vucevic
Why do you think Orlando would want to do this trade? Both Gay and Collison are rentals, Ben is a disappointing RFA next year and WCS has been a disappointment. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
#26
Why do you think Orlando would want to do this trade? Both Gay and Collison are rentals, Ben is a disappointing RFA next year and WCS has been a disappointment. Maybe I'm missing something.
They get a test run to see if it's a fit, and possibly resign. Similar to the Ibaka Deal. If they don't resign, at least they'll have cap room to pursue another retooling. All these middle of the road teams (including us) have to take a gamble at some point.
 
#27
I appreciate where you're coming from but still disagree.

You could make the argument Payton is better then Collison today. Payton is still 22 and under the teams control for two more seasons, then he's a RFA. Vucevic is under contract for a very reasonable 12.5 million next year and the year after. Thats's what the Kings pay Afflalo! IMO it would be foolish on Orlando's part to make this trade.

WCS for Super Mario straight up works. I could see both teams wanting to take a chance on each others disappointing players.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#28
Orlando is the most appealing trade partner to me. Something like this:

Kings Recieve: Nikola Vucevic, Elfrid Payton, and Mario Hezonja

Orlando Recieve: Rudy Gay, Darren Collison, and Willie or Ben (whoever they prefer)

A Vucevic and Cousins pairing would be great, Payton has potential at only 22, and Hezonja could develop into a better player. I would follow up this trade with another one, possibly Trevor Ariza for Kosta.

Possible Starting Lineup:

Elfrid Payton
Garret Temple
Trevor Ariza
Demarcus Cousins
Nikola Vucevic
I would do that deal in an instant but Orlando is giving up way too much youth in that deal...I don't see that as a realistic option.
 
#29
I don't think Orlando would do this, but maybe they would so they could have a end of the game/crunch time scorer (trying not to laugh as Rudy dribbles off his leg with 5 seconds left),

Trade Rudy for Ibaka straight up, both on expiring deals. Both unlikely to resign with their team. Orlando being Orlando already mitigates the Rudy effect of making teams worse, and could set up the Rudy bump for when he leaves (and they get a 'scorer').

Kings get a 3&D guy that makes sense next to Cousins, frees them up to trade Koufos+whoever for a PG.