The one and only Isaiah Thomas thread (merged)

hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#61
#61
twslam07 said:
As good as Thomas is on offense, he has been just as atrocious on defense. That's the thing.

He has the 3rd best ORPM in the league at 5.94. Harden and Westbrook are the only two ahead of him. However his DRPM is -4.44. That gives him only a 1.5 RPM which is 15th among PGs who average 30+ min.

For a team like Boston who doesn't have anyone to carry the offensive load, yeah you start him. For a team who has others to carry the load, it's perfectly reasonable to have him come off the bench and match him up against bench players who won't be able to exploit him defensively. You know that thing of hiding your weaknesses and playing to your strengths? The game is won on both sides of the ball, but all the recognition, all the accolades, and all the glamour comes from being good at one end of the floor.

This doesn't make IT untalented. He's one of the best offensive players in the league! But he has his warts and those warts are on defense. If you can minimize the negative effect he brings defensively by allowing him to defend bench players for more minutes, it's going to make him more impactful.
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Basically it means that Thomas is who we thought he is, only more so. He's averaging a career high 20 FGA per game this season and his shooting percentages are up about 2% pts from his career averages. He wanted to go to a team that wanted a scoring point guard and Boston has let him be a scoring point guard. I believe the plan for him if he stayed in Sacramento was to have him come off the bench but play most of the 4th quarter like Ben Gordon back in the day. He probably wouldn't be getting 20 shots per game in that role, but he could easily be a 20 ppg dynamic sixth man. The concern was that he would be exploited defensively so you would want a more defensive oriented PG to start the first and third quarters and then you would bring him in when our primary scorers needed a rest and he would become the primary scorer.

I don't think it was a bad plan, but I also don't know that he would have been happy in that role. That front office let Tyreke walk so it probably shouldn't have come as a surprise when they let Thomas walk too. They just didn't know what they had in either player. If there's still a question over whether Cousins and Thomas could co-exist, of course they could. Both players are talented enough to make it work. I don't know that Thomas reaches this same level of stardom staying in Sacramento -- actually I do know. ESPN is based in New England, he would be an afterthought at best on the Kings even at this level of production but in Boston he may be the front-runner for MVP (you'll see, East Coast based columnists will twist themselves into knots justifying it). So given the circumstances, he's in the best possible place he could be and we need to continue looking for a way to win with our present reality. That may start with finding our own dynamic wing player to take some of the pressure off DeMarcus and exploit the very guard friendly ruleset currently in place.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#62
#62
There is really no comparison of a Celtics team with a winning record headed to playoffs and the Sacto Kings.
Some people can still try to minimize IT's talent, as he has become an all-star, led his team to a winning record and scored more points in the fourth quarter than any player in the last 20 years. To me it is proof that many people that are Kings fans do not know talent when they see it. Wouldn't it be something if the Kings still had Whiteside for instance?

The Kings have a hard time trading for high caliber talent. They can only get a potential all-star through the draft, and they are young players. The really good ones often have one year in college. It takes time to develop them, but the organization tends to give up on them. Cousins is absolutely the exception. My wish for the Kings is that learn some patience and try to develop some of their players like Willie.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#63
#63
ppine said:
There is really no comparison of a Celtics team with a winning record headed to playoffs and the Sacto Kings.
Some people can still try to minimize IT's talent, as he has become an all-star, led his team to a winning record and scored more points in the fourth quarter than any player in the last 20 years. To me it is proof that many people that are Kings fans do not know talent when they see it. Wouldn't it be something if the Kings still had Whiteside for instance?

The Kings have a hard time trading for high caliber talent. They can only get a potential all-star through the draft, and they are young players. The really good ones often have one year in college. It takes time to develop them, but the organization tends to give up on them. Cousins is absolutely the exception. My wish for the Kings is that learn some patience and try to develop some of their players like Willie.
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So we should have held on to Whiteside? Look at his resume. He whiffed again - several times - before he figured things out. Not keeping him was absolutely the right move at the time.

As far as IT goes, the Kings fan base will never agree about him. It doesn't mean some of us don't recognize talent when we see it. I think most of us agreed about his talent but did not feel he was suited to be a starter FOR US. I can only speak for myself, but my opinion in that regard has not changed. I wish him all the luck in the world and am glad he finally found a place that is suited to his game.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#64
#64
ppine said:
There is really no comparison of a Celtics team with a winning record headed to playoffs and the Sacto Kings.
Some people can still try to minimize IT's talent, as he has become an all-star, led his team to a winning record and scored more points in the fourth quarter than any player in the last 20 years. To me it is proof that many people that are Kings fans do not know talent when they see it. Wouldn't it be something if the Kings still had Whiteside for instance?

The Kings have a hard time trading for high caliber talent. They can only get a potential all-star through the draft, and they are young players. The really good ones often have one year in college. It takes time to develop them, but the organization tends to give up on them. Cousins is absolutely the exception. My wish for the Kings is that learn some patience and try to develop some of their players like Willie.
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Whiteside wasn't just let go for talent/maturity reasons. Almost everyone here was thrilled that we got Whiteside in the second round as there was a chance he was going to be our pick in the first round if we missed on Cousins. The biggest reason we don't have Whiteside right now is that he was drafted by the Geoff Petrie/Maloof front office directly before they went into salary-shedding, asset-bleed mode and basically cleaned house of every tradeable asset that drew a salary. Whiteside didn't have any trade value at that point in time so he was simply let go. We're lucky Cousins himself wasn't traded during that time period. Whiteside was always going to be a long-term project and we didn't stick by him long enough to benefit from his development. It's possible no team would have kept him for 5 seasons to start his career since second round picks typically get less chances to prove themselves. But that's just another example why developing players is so important and trading away picks and young players for immediate impact vets is a fool's strategy with no possibility of long-term success.

Also, I wasn't trying to minimize Thomas' talent. I just agree with twslam07 that the arguments made for trading Thomas were mostly centered around his defense and those same concerns are still there. If you can average 30 points per game you are a star in the NBA regardless of what else you can or cannot do. IT isn't a completely different player in Boston than he was here, the difference is that there's a supporting framework around him there which allows him to succeed on a level that he couldn't here. Boston is one of the best franchises in the league right now -- they hired a great young coach, consistently identify and acquire undervalued players, and adapt their game plan to fit their talent. There's no reason why these same qualities couldn't also be true of a franchise in Sacramento. I completely agree with your last staement and that's what this is about -- we need to learn some patience and we need to trust our scouts and our player development personnel to excel at their jobs or replace them with people who can.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#65
#65
People can talk about IT's defense all they want.
The Celtics are 32-18 and two games behind Cleveland the NBA Champs. They are doing this with only one all-star in IT.

"He wasn't a good fit for us." The Kings were losing then and they are losing now. The fit is not the issue.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#75
#75
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Which proves nothing; it's not like a counterfactual has occurred in the intervening time. I mean, here's what we know: Cousins has played with a ball-dominant guard and lost, Isaiah Thomas has played with a ball-dominant big and lost, and Isaiah Thomas has played without a ball-dominant big and won. We still have yet to see Thomas win with a ball-dominant big, and we still have yet to see Cousins play without a ball-dominant guard at all, so what reason do we have to believe that it ever would have worked?
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Because talent wins in this league. There is other stuff involved like team chemistry, professionalism and intangibles, but it starts with talent and talents like Isaiah Thomas and Demarcus Cousins don't grow on trees, especially for a team like the Kings.
 
twslam07

twslam07

Starter
#76
#76
ppine said:
People can talk about IT's defense all they want.
The Celtics are 32-18 and two games behind Cleveland the NBA Champs. They are doing this with only one all-star in IT.

"He wasn't a good fit for us." The Kings were losing then and they are losing now. The fit is not the issue.
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And we will until he improves in that area.

If Cousins had Smart, Bradley, Crowder, and Horford as his running mates and Brad Stevens as his coach, I'm sure he'd be right up there as well from a record standpoint. You're citing a team stat like it's some sort of proof for an individual player? As has been explained countless of times on this site, it's a lazy analysis.

All-star is, more often than not, a flashy, offensive award. The celtics have one excellent offensive player but they also have great two way players who arguably contribute more to their winning (Horford, Crowder). People get caught up in the offensive stats and label them a star, but the fact of the matter is that some "stars" contribute more to winning than others. Thomas happens to be on the lower end of that list due to his lack of defense.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#77
#77
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Maybe it could have worked; I'm unconvinced. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Isaiah Thomas, a player who has stated on the record that he wants to be the next Iverson, has found his greatest success on a team that is built like a carbon copy of the squad that Iverson had his best season with.
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Ok you're unconvinced but giving it a go would have been a much more desirable situation than the garbage we have seen since IT left. The goal of any team is to hit on big talent(ask the Sixers). We would have two of the top 15 NBA players on the roster, thats a pretty good base to start with if you're asking me. Also IT is that "alpha male" that would stand up to Cousins and keep him in check. He is a true leader, something this team has lacked since the glory days.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#79
#79
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Maybe it could have worked; I'm unconvinced. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Isaiah Thomas, a player who has stated on the record that he wants to be the next Iverson, has found his greatest success on a team that is built like a carbon copy of the squad that Iverson had his best season with.
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You're basically saying the Warriors don't work because they have Durant, Curry, Thompson and Green, all of them need the ball, need to trade three of them and build around one guy.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#80
#80
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
It remains to be seen whether Durant, Curry, Thompson and Green work; we won't know the answer to that until Father's Day. We know that Curry, Thompson and Green worked, in part because, ultimately, Thompson and (albeit to a lesser extent) Green have the temperament to fall in line and get in formation behind Curry.

We've seen Durant have a great regular season with a ball-dominant guard and not win the championship already.
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So what you're saying is Curry, Durant, Thompson, Green have the best record in the league but they might choke in the Finals thus a team built around Cousins/Thomas would be worse than the mediocrity we are now. That makes absolutely no sense.
 
jcwkings

jcwkings

All-Star
#81
#81
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Well, first of all, we've seen the Warriors have the best record in the league before, so that no longer impresses me. Second of all, I didn't say it would be worse, I said that mileage varies as to whether it would be more desirable.

Let me put it this way: I'm really glad that Isaiah Thomas is doing well. He's worked really hard, and he's earned his success. I'm also really glad that he's doing all that on a team that I don't root for, and don't watch.
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Kingsfans.com gotta love it..
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#83
#83
Time for my Bi-annual "I told you so" post after fighting most of you for his tenure here. Wonder where the "midget chucker" comments might be?

At any rate:


I.
Told.
You.
So.
 
Larry89

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#84
#84
They were both still in the early stages of their Careers coming off Maloofery learning how to be players in the NBA. I felt like at that time other circumstances contributed to the losing seasons of the Kings, not the Duo of a Rookie contract Thomas and Cousins
 
P

ppine

Starter
#88
#88
twslam07 said:
And we will until he improves in that area.

If Cousins had Smart, Bradley, Crowder, and Horford as his running mates and Brad Stevens as his coach, I'm sure he'd be right up there as well from a record standpoint. You're citing a team stat like it's some sort of proof for an individual player? As has been explained countless of times on this site, it's a lazy analysis.

All-star is, more often than not, a flashy, offensive award. The celtics have one excellent offensive player but they also have great two way players who arguably contribute more to their winning (Horford, Crowder). People get caught up in the offensive stats and label them a star, but the fact of the matter is that some "stars" contribute more to winning than others. Thomas happens to be on the lower end of that list due to his lack of defense.
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Denial. The only all-star on the Celtics team is IT. He is being considered in the MVP debate, but you think he is a sixth man with crummy defensive skills.
 
twslam07

twslam07

Starter
#89
#89
ppine said:
Denial. The only all-star on the Celtics team is IT. He is being considered in the MVP debate, but you think he is a sixth man with crummy defensive skills.
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He's an elite offensive player and a dreadful defender. I don't care that he's getting MVP consideration. First off, that award is not always given to the best player. Secondly, a team stat plays a big role in deciding an individual award (pitiful). Thirdly, MVP is more often than not an offensive award, so it makes sense that an elite offensive player who's TEAM is playing very well would be getting some recommendation.

If you want to actually look into the results a little further and not just take team stats and PPG as the end all be all, maybe we can have an intelligent conversation, but you, like a lot of the nation, like to eat up team wins and PPG and label him King. I'm a little more thorough in my assessment.
 
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