The direction of the Carter/Randolph signings

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Kingsfan23, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Name me ONE team that has improved significantly without a good veteran presence to help mentor the youth. Go ahead, take your time. I'll wait.
  2. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    The impact of these vet signings depends entirely on the reason behind them and how it plays out. If they push the young players to the bench so the coaching staff can squeak out 3-4 more wins then we'll know something isn't jiving with the supposed plan here.
  3. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I'm pretty sure that's NOT why they were hired.
  4. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    We can play our rookies and 2nd year guys 32 minutes a game and get beat in blow out games or 10 point losses or we can play them 12-24 minutes or more in tight games where they get meaningful, game on the line minutes.

    It's what Joerger and staff did last year until the trade and when we started sitting guys. He believes that 8-12 or whatever quality minutes are way more valuable than 30 minutes of garbage time. Zbo and Carter and Hill will help keep us competitive for the pups to develop properly at a reasonably earned rate of minutes.

    Joerger and staff have done a dang good job to point of developing guys.
  5. Old-School

    Old-School New Member

    I have noticed no one has mentioned that the chance of both these signings playing a moderate amount of minutes without significant injury concerns (at their age) is very questionable. They may be mentoring, but it might be from the bench a great deal of the time, both in practice and real games.
  6. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    DMC isn't a kid anymore though and unlikely to take direction from vets at this point. He had vets when he was here (Caron Butler, one of the best citizens in the NBA... didn't not fix the problem apparently).
    Sac.1989 likes this.
  7. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    This guy gets it.

    Our culture change is finally complete.
    Ron and VF21 like this.
  8. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Zac/Vince may be coming here just to play ball and not act as dual assistant coaches as well. They are seasoned, and seem personable personalities, but again this is very subjective on how you see the role of vets
  9. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    Utah did it.
    Milwaukee did it.
    Philadelphia did it.

    That's assuming that you subscribe to that way of thinking of how minutes should be distributed, and that's what Joerger is actually thinking when he coaches.

    It's also assuming that those three vets are the difference makers you think they are. I've talked to a few Memphis fans recently; general word is that this was the first year that Zbo was really a net negative on the floor. Vince Carter is 40 years old. Hill probably actually is a difference maker, but he's injured half the time anyway.

    You can throw an all-vet lineup out there. I doubt it'll actually be competitive.
  10. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I hope they are coming to play ball, regardless of their intention (and they are Joerger guys, so I am sure that he and they all get their role), these guys aren't going to be taking up major minutes as the season wears on. The important part is that they challenge and make the kids earn their minutes.
  11. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    1. They're short contracts.

    2. We needed to come up to league minimum.

    3. We weren't going to get any other players of their caliber/vet status.

    4. It's not that much over what other teams would have paid them.

    5. You don't nickel and dime vets like that that and they will deliver on intangibles.

    I'm having a hard time seeing how these are bad deals for us. We're STILL not at league minimum. If we nickel and dime those guys and we're not even at league minimum, it kills all the goodwill we are trying to create by having them in the locker room. We don't have room for any other players, and we weren't going to sign better guys for that role, so you pay them. The only argument you can make for shaving a few mil off their deals is it allows us MAYBE to take on a contract in a mid-season trade. But any player that we get wouldn't be a game changer anyway because we are not trading away anyone that can bring that in return. These were the guys we wanted to fulfill that vet role. You show them the respect they deserve and they will take care of your youth like a family member. These are not the moves to sweat over.
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  12. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    Two words: George Hill
    I know he kinda jerked us over, but Jason Terry has NCAA and NBA titles as well as a 6th man of the year award to his name.
    Oh, the team contending for a top 3 pick 5 straight seasons, whose two brightest players have maybe played 30 games? Philly is all potential right now. Good potential, but they could just as well be the 2006-2010 Portland Trailblazers.
  13. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    Wait, really?!?
  14. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    Actually, sorry, just checked, and with Zbo and Carter, and dead cap hits we are.

    Add in holds (Cooley and Sampson) and we're right about at the cap -- 99M ish. W/o that we're between minimum and cap.

    Point stands though, and in fact is even stronger, because we would have even less to gain by wiggling out of a few mil on Carter and Zbo.
  15. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    I figured this would be brought up. Utah signed vets last offseason because they were ready to win now and those guys would put them over the hump. Before that they went from 25 wins to around a .500 team despite having virtually no one with over 4 years of experience on the roster.

    We're a lot closer to the Jazz of 3 or 4 years ago than the Jazz from 1 year ago. Not ready to win now.

    And? She asked which teams improved significantly and Philadelphia has. Notice how they signed vets now? They're ready to try and get over the hump now.

    You could argue that these models are better actually than the franchise that overplays its vets when it shouldn't be (Byron Scott Lakers).
  16. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    No - Philadelphia finished with a worse record than we did last year. I don't care who they are on paper. They look to have a bright future. Oh, and like you said, they signed vets despite the fact that the most important parts of "the process" have 30 something games under their belt.
    VF21 likes this.
  17. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Here is the the thing, there are "Vet" signings and there are "Mentors" Vet signing.

    I think Vlade made it clear to the free agents that were signed that their role was to help the young kids develop. And these mentors will be paid handsomely to do that.

    "Vet" signing means that the player was brought in to compete with the young kids and try to win at the expense of teaching the kids.

    "Mentors" vet signing means that the vets know they were brought in for a specific role and that is to play and teach the young kids how to play and how to win in this league.

    Listening to the interviews of all the vets coming in, I think everyone is on the same page about developing the youth for the future. :)
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  18. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Actually that's not what I asked at all. My point was that teams as bad as the Kings have been don't succeed without turning things around - and that means bringing in some veteran players to help mentor the kids. This is especially true when the whole climate/culture of the franchsie has been through as much as the Kings have been. Bringing in veterans like Z-Bo and Carter doesn't put us in a "win-now" mode IMHO, which is what Ozymandias was trying to argue.
  19. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    But you have to be sure that you have the kids already that need to be mentored. I'm high on our youth, but it would be a little different for Minnesota/Milwaukee to do that with kids who they are already comfortable with as a core. I don't know if we are there yet or need more cracks at young talent.
  20. Warhawk

    Warhawk The cake is a lie. Staff Member Contributor

    I think you haven't been watching the interviews, etc. ALL of them have stressed they are coming here to serve as mentors.

    Watch this:

    Watch this:

    Go to 0:50 and 4:15 and 6:00 on the following:

    Just a few examples. I am sure there are more. You haven't been paying attention. At all.
    VF21 and King Baller like this.
  21. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Dude, save the self-righteousness, we are having a civil conversation.

    Yes, they are solid vets coming and to help along the kids. I didn't say anything contradictory by saying they aren't looking to be "dual assistant coaches".

    It's very subjective how much social/practical input they will have on the others, and are expected to by themselves and the team, still.
  22. Warhawk

    Warhawk The cake is a lie. Staff Member Contributor

    I don't know where the "self-righteousness" comment comes from. Please elaborate.

    You asked if they were "just here to play ball". The answer is clearly no if you have been paying attention at all.
  23. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence...

    I'd argue the 2012 Thunder won their division and made the finals based on the strength of 22 and 23 year olds. If you choose to believe Kendrick Perkins was mentoring KD Westbrook and Harden on the nuances of pulling up off the dribble, drawing fouls, Ibaka on blocking shots, and doing the heavy lifting of getting a team to the finals, I wouldn't try to convince ya otherwise..

    It's worth pointing out If you swapped Carter and Randolph for 25 or below players, the 2017-2018 Kings still wouldn't qualify for what you're posting about;, Garrett Temple is 31, George Hill is 31 and Koufos is 28..

    And I really don't mean to be a party pooper but the chances of seeing significant improvement this next season are extremely slim.. The Kings won 32 games last season and are projected, pretty much everywhere you look, to do about the same this season..
    biltalent likes this.
  24. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    It's worth pointing out the Jazz were also riddled with injuries in 2015-2016 and in 2016-2017, both seasons they had like ~180 games missed due to injury. I actually think if that squad, specifically George Hill and Derrick Favors were 100% all of last year they could've taken the 3-seed.
  25. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    Not trying to be a wetblanket in this thread, it's worth pointing out that the Kings might not really be trying to win this season... Would not meeting the floor, gambling on more youngins and maintaining more flexibility (+$12MM next offseason instead of allocating it to Randolph) get in the way of a tank? absolutely not. Thats the part that gets me, the 2nd year for Randolph, let's say the Kings do take a signifigant step, play near .500 ball (above all expectations) based on the strength of a few youngins stepping up, that $12MM cap space could be used to land a more significant win-now peice going into the 2018-2019 season..

    Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong and will gladly eat crow if thats the case. Your outlook is kinda negative though, "Weren't going to get any other players of their caliber" That's far from settled.. There's a reason JaMychal Green won the starting spot over Zach Randolph last season in Memphis, a chief one being they were trying to win...
  26. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    I really can't state this strongly enough: The Kings are DONE micromanaging a tank. It's just not happening. I know there are people that really think they can micromanage the perfect tank, but Vlade is not having any of it. It's not the way he's running this ship. It is simply not a management priority. All of our moves make a lot more sense when you view it that way.
    biltalent, VF21, pdxKingsFan and 3 others like this.
  27. Iced Espresso

    Iced Espresso Well-Known Member

    I'd of kept the cap space open for bad contracts + incentive.

    But I don't have to sell season tickets, or deal with a coach annoyed I'm not giving him much to work with.
    VF21 likes this.
  28. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Utah brought several vets plus their core was not THAT young.
    Philly is not good. They should be if the blue chip young players they have remain healthy.
    Bucks are young but there are some 25 year old and up players that play significant minutes. AND some of their young guys came to the game very young. Did you know the Greek Freak will be starting his 5th season soon?

    I don't see the down side of the signing the Kings made. Sure the older Vets may not play much. But is that not what many of us have all been yearning for? Then the Young players can play increased minutes.

    Lets wait and see but I think things will work out for the best.
  29. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    I am SO over the talk of tanking. It's not happening here.
    VF21 likes this.
  30. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I think we'll struggle and compete for a top 3 pick this year. A lot of people think some of these moves have put us back into that 8th worst team in the league mode, but 2/3rds of our roster are on their rookie deals and those guys are expected to contribute.

    I think what people don't get is that cleaning house and bringing in a few proven winners and guys on the same page as the coach changes so much about how we are perceived around the league, by the refs, by other players and their agents. We've already seen an entire shift, just had one of our assistants in the FO poached from under us by a huge market team, when has that happened?!? I expect this will translate in ways we won't see right away or acknowledge.
    biltalent, VF21, The Hammer and 2 others like this.

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