The constructive thread

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by kingsfan1984, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. kingsfan1984

    kingsfan1984 Well-Known Member

    This thread is going to assume that the coaches know what they are doing. So instead of questioning the competence of the team or effort etc of the players, lets have this thread for rational and constructive explanations of what the team and players are doing.

    The team has said tbis season is NOT about wins. So then what IS it about then? Development obviously. I think all the struggles of the team and the confusion in regards to rotations and playsets can all be explained from tje perspective of development.

    For instance, why are we running this high post offense that is difficult for Skal and WCS when pick n roll would be a better fit? Because, perhaps over the course of running this over a year our young bigs will be forced to develop skills they otherwise wouldn't running simply pick n rolls. Next year, they will be better players after going through the growing pains. If you want to grow then work on sometbing over your head until you get it. Not going to get better repeating what you already know.

    Another reason for hammerimg in this offense over easier pick n roll style offense is to raise the ceilig of the team. What i mean by this, yes tbey could run a easier PnR style plays and be more competitive NOW, but when then do they learn a system that will be more effective when one day they fnd themselves in competitive games late in forth or going against the better teams that can defend tje PnR like the spurs or warriors. Take the growing pains now where wins dont matter and use these games to learn a better more complete offense that will serve the players and team better in the long term.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  2. allrightythen

    allrightythen Well-Known Member

    If this year is about development they definitely need to work on those things that they aren't as good at. In reality we should be running some PnR and some high post stuff for the reasons you mentioned above. My hope is that as guys get more comfortable with each other and more comfortable from new places on the floor we will see a more cohesive effort.

    I do want a coaching staff that uses analytics to some degree to determine where on the floor each player is the most efficient/successful and design the offense to maximize those strengths.
  3. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they are doing that now. With players this raw you have to pick your carefully mixing learning with reinforcing success. Hard to do when you have to spend time on basic basics like reading a clock, getting on the right bus, how to make a layup, what to have for breakfast, what the coachs’ names are, and other important odds and ends. How do we know where these guys are? What are their problems? Scoring, making shots, getting good shots, passing, blocking out, rebounding, making shot around the basket, making three point shots, seeing the floor, fast break, half court offense, lack of aggression, mistakes here, there and everywhere. A step at a time, and in or case small steps. The drip-drip method. If we want to be fans we have to hang in there. Just think how smart even one coach is.
  4. Iced Espresso

    Iced Espresso Well-Known Member

    I like a few things about the high post offense. Skal is a decent outside shooter and it puts pressure on the bigs to make a decision when the guards rotate around the screen. They've been moving pretty well around the screens of late, taking what the defense gives.

    Fox has been able to even find Kosta for lobs & dunks, we saw him roll to the basket for layups as well against Boston.

    I think WCS pairs better with Fox in this regard offensively.

    But for this to be able to work Hill needs to get his shot back. His unreliability offensively has made the offense look terrible at times.

    The offense works for Papa too, as he can nail a jump shot or set big body screens.

    What's frustrating to me is we spent all this money on Hill, while Collison makes half the amount, and Collison's mid range game is fantastic. I'm a bit worried about Hill's fit sometimes with this offense.

    I'd also like to see Fox & WCS on the floor together more and having them both run the floor together.
  5. macadocious

    macadocious Well-Known Member

    This offense would work better if players across the board made quicker decisions. They get a lot of open looks, they are either not taking the shot when they have it, or hesitating enough for the defense to recover.
  6. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    This happens to be very common for young teams and teams with a lot of new players (now what team does that sound like?) :rolleyes:
  7. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Just trust the guy who cut his teeth in the D League and was highly successful at bringing along prospects. His timeline for this team and how he brings it along is about doing things right. Big picture stuff. Many fans want a bottom line NOW of winning with a team that's not ready to win.
  8. allrightythen

    allrightythen Well-Known Member

    That's true. New system and new league and new teammates for many of these guys; a little hesitation is not surprising.
  9. JCTNKINGFAN

    JCTNKINGFAN Active Member

    I think this is a great idea, maybe we can keep this thread going for the whole season. Be interesting to compare posts from early in the season with posts near the end of the season. See how much improvement there has been (we can only hope).
  10. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    I'm taking a three year approach with this very set of players, plus or minus a trade or two and a draft pick or two. Because the front office has shown a high degree of organization and drafting intelligence, all my previous questions are laid to rest, and I am now back to letting these guys work through their problems, rather than advocating blowing anything up or making any major changes.

    For at LEAST this full season I am not concerned at all about wins or losses. I just want these guys to get some burn.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  11. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    I know some posters want to criticize Joerger here but as I've mentioned in another thread, this is essentially year one all over again for Joerger considering the major roster overhaul this team has gone through. Joerger went from surrounding his offense around Boogie to slow-bo until the rookies and the rest of the young ones come along on their own. Some will take longer than we'd like, some will catch on quicker. It really is out of their hands, it depends how they develop and whether they are put into positions to succeed. Joerger has a decent track record of developing his youth, they may not happen instantly but not many things do in sports, especially a rebuilding team. 8 games in and all we ask for is for the tempo to increase and to start playing the likes of Fox, Skal, etc. before the lead rises to 20.
  12. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    They in theory could very well become better players if they do pick up the necessary skills required to run that offense, that is if their confidence isn't destroyed first. I brought this up in the other thread, Phil Jackson/Triangle/New York ring any bells? Young players are vulnerable. They need to taste individual success before they attempt to break through that wall. I'm cool with the humbling process that Joerger has got going on right now, but it's dangerous when that starts to turn into the bumbling process.
    biltalent likes this.
  13. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    The Kings played a great first quarter against the Celtics. That is a beginning:) Buddy Buckets made his debut as a SixthMan and he killed it.
  14. There4

    There4 New Member

    Thank You!:)
    VF21, King Baller and kingsfan1984 like this.
  15. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    I agree on the assumption, that Joerger knows what he is doing. I also think constructive debate is a lot better and a lot less frustrating than venting and calling for the head of the coach.

    But regarding the rest of your post, I have a question:

    Wouldn't it make more sense to start the development of young players just making their first steps at the professional level with solidifying the things they do best?

    I'm all for ironing out the weaknesses, but usually the strengths of a player are the reason, why he is getting drafted. The FO's around the league see something, that they believe they could use at the NBA level.
    So does it make sense to adress the weaknesses, before it is answered, if the strengths of a player translate to the league?

    Lets take a look at WCS's development and I hate to pick on the guy, but he simply makes an easy target right now.
    The moment WCS stepped into the league it seemed his focus was mainly on developing his offensive skillset - handles, jumpshot etc.
    But wasn't he drafted for his athleticism and defensive potential? I think we pretty much all can agree, that Willie is not as good on the defensive end and in the rebounding department as he should be by now.
    Maybe the team not directing his focus more to the development of his strengths than to working on his weaknesses has something to do with that?

    With Fox it's the same thing. The kid obviously would be capable of developing into an elite defender and fastbreak weapon. He already has all the tools. Why not go that route first?

    In my mind it's not about being competitive now. It's about giving these kids the first tools to built an NBA career upon.
    Starting with the fundamentals and with the things, that actually got them into the league, makes a whole lot of sense for me.
  16. King in England

    King in England Active Member

    I'm grateful for the creation of this thread. The vibe on this board recently has astounded me. I thought about posting in a couple of the other threads that were particularly rash/extreme in their viewpoints, but ended up so exasperated I wasn't up to the fight.

    Fire Joerger, seriously? 3 weeks in to the season, with the worst team we've had in a while, in a season where we were expected to be a bottom 5 team. I just don't understand. Were expectations too high for some of you?? Have some faith he's developing players in the right way.

    Give up WCS for nothing. Again, why? Alright he's not met some of the expectations we had for him coming out of the draft and hasn't put it all together yet, but he's showing flashes of skill that I didn't know he had (Passing, shooting) that I still have high hopes. Plus he's only 24!

    Why not just enjoy the games for what they are. If we win great, unexpected good feelings. If we lose, ah well, learning experience plus the ability to take solace in the fact that the worse teams are the higher pick they get in the draft. I've enjoyed most of the games this season, even if they haven't been the most competitive.
    VF21, gunks, MizzouKing and 6 others like this.
  17. kingsfan1984

    kingsfan1984 Well-Known Member

    I agree completely with your criticism. What i really want is to have these same questions your asking and points your making asked of joeger specifically in a forum like the "jams ham" podcast where the coach can enlighten the fan base that is interested in the rational behind their "developmental choices." There is an interest from a number of fans, myself included, that want to learn more of the nuances of what the team is doing behind the scenes but unfortunately its not available yet.

    I think this info will help calm the "burn it down" sentiments and ease a lot of our frustrations if we just understood the "WHY" behind the choices they are making in regards to the day in day out process of development of the team as a whole and each player specifically. I want to know what the coaches are pounding into WCS and why the coaches are focusing on these factors as opposed to others etc.

    As the fan consuming the product i want a much deeper insight into "the process" and want to hear the coaches reasons for all the little things they have decided to do. Then when im watching the games i can then cheere the small successes and see the steps toward the long term goal and feel good about the teams long term vision. As it is, i feel too much in the dark, unsure what they are working toward and how what im seeing on TV is auppose to get them to the promise land.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  18. kingsfan1984

    kingsfan1984 Well-Known Member

    I think there are 2 different lines to go down
    1) understanding what the team is doing and why
    And
    2) criticism of the choices made in 1)

    Lots of the early firestorm in the wake of the early season struggles are of the #2 variety, but the issue is without knowing the answers to the #1 questions then we are putting the cart before the horse. If we are guessing at what the coach is trying to do we might be way off.
  19. JCTNKINGFAN

    JCTNKINGFAN Active Member

    I'm beginning to think Fox might can learn more about being a point guard from Mason than Hill. That's not a knock on Hill, he's just not really a bonafide point guard, more of a 2. Mason may have the best point guard savvy on the team right now, just not the experience and his small stature will always put him at a disadvantage. He has really good court awareness and keeps the ball moving.
    CVKingsfan and VF21 like this.
  20. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    Thoughts on Pistons game

    Moving Buddy to the bench was gold, benching WCS was also good. Jackson is looking like he is gaining confidence and his hustle and defense is good.

    Young player's passing up decent/good shots due to lack of confidence for what may not be better shots in the future, that will disappear with time. Fox will be a great player with what he has shown.
  21. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    The only thing I would disagree with is that your making it an either/or situation with the high post offense and the P&R. You can easily run the pick and roll out of the high post offense. As a matter of fact, it's easier to run the pick and roll out of that offense. To be honest, I'm not sure why the Kings guards aren't running it more. It could be as simple as unfamiliarity and timing. I seldom see them run the give and go, another way to score out of the high post. The Kings ran a lot of high post set's with Cousins, and they ran the pick and roll out of it with Cousins quite successfully, especially with Lawson on the floor.

    In the Detroit game I counted at least 4 times when the cutter was wide open out of an elbow pick and roll but didn't get the ball. The ball handler has a tenth of a second to make that pass, and if he hesitates, the moment is gone. I think it will come with time and when everyone is more familiar with one another. Fox was a pretty good pick and roll player at Kentucky, and Mason excelled at it at Kansas. Give them some time.
  22. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I think your right to some degree, but I disagree a bit as well. I don't think that development is an either/or thing. A player should be able to work on the weaknesses of his game if he's going to stay in the league and be a rotational player. And I would never fault any player for aspiring to be the next Michael Jordan. I want players that are willing to work hard to be as good as they can be, and I hate coaches that try to put players in a box. That said, I think a player has to recognize what his strengths are, and why he was drafted in the first place. I have no problem with a player developing other aspects of his game, but not at the expense of his original strengths.

    While I've defended Willie, I can't say that he hasn't frustrated me at times. I do think he gets blamed for defensive mistakes that aren't his at times. In the Piston game in the first half, when Reggie Jackson got past Fox and blew into the lane, Willie had to leave Drummond and step up to stop the ball. Of course Jackson passed the ball to Drummond who then dunked it behind Willies back. If all you saw was Drummond wide open and dunking the ball behind Willie, you probably blamed Willie. But It's very hard to guard two players at the same time, and unfortunately, that happens when your at the center position. It used to happen to Cousins quite often, which is why Cuz lost his temper out there at times.

    However, in last nights game, I got pretty frustrated with Willie's sleep walking act. It looked like he was mentally somewhere else at times. I found myself yelling at him to get his butt in gear and do something, anything!!! Apparently Joerger agreed with me, yanked him and left him on the bench for the rest of the first half. It seemed to wake him up because he came out in the 2nd half and played more aggressively. Willie has quite a few tools at his disposal, but he has to use them. There are times when I want to take a cattle prod to him. He could be one of the best defensive players in the league, and to be fair, he's better than some on this forum think. But that's not good enough. He needs to keep his motor running at 100% all the time.

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