Sacramento/Indiana trade

[Hansel]

Sacramento/Indiana & Sacramento/Chicago trade

http://www1.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=3591076

Brad Miller likes Indiana
Foster is a huge rebounder
Jasikevicius can be good from the bench

http://www3.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=3591094

Malik Allen isn't necessary really...
Pj Brown's contract is very interesting
We can trade Kenny Thomas but Garcia also...
Chicago don't accept Thomas for Brown in my opinion.

So...

At the end of this season we'll have 8 milion and the mle for free agents... If Bibby opt out we'll have about 20 milions
Netx season Jasikevicius' contract ends..

What do you think about this plan?

Forgive my English

 

[nbrans]

Just so you don't have to click the link to figure out the trade, in the first trade mike bibby is proposing Miller for Jeff Foster and Sarunas Jasikevicius, a trade that I also have proposed before. I think it makes a whole lot of sense, especially if we can convince Jasikevicius to opt out of his contract in the offseason and go back to Europe. I don't think we have much use for Jasikevicius, but we sure could use Jeff Foster.

These last couple games have been kind of eye opening. We started going away from the corner series and back to the open set, which means the two and three man game with Bibby and Miller has been replaced with more post play and more ball movement (at least in theory). I like this system a lot better because it gets the other players on the team more involved and doesn't make us solely dependent on Bibby and Miller for offense. But the consequence is that if you're not going to run the offense through Miller he's essentially worthless.

So while I have previously argued that Brad should be the veteran we keep in a rebuild, I may be changing my mind. I think this trade makes a lot of sense for both teams.

 

[Smills91]

Just so you don't have to click the link to figure out the trade, in the first trade mike bibby is proposing Miller for Jeff Foster and Sarunas Jasikevicius, a trade that I also have proposed before. I think it makes a whole lot of sense, especially if we can convince Jasikevicius to opt out of his contract in the offseason and go back to Europe. I don't think we have much use for Jasikevicius, but we sure could use Jeff Foster.

These last couple games have been kind of eye opening. We started going away from the corner series and back to the open set, which means the two and three man game with Bibby and Miller has been replaced with more post play and more ball movement (at least in theory). I like this system a lot better because it gets the other players on the team more involved and doesn't make us solely dependent on Bibby and Miller for offense. But the consequence is that if you're not going to run the offense through Miller he's essentially worthless.

So while I have previously argued that Brad should be the veteran we keep in a rebuild, I may be changing my mind. I think this trade makes a lot of sense for both teams.

I'd still like to squeeze more out of Indy for Miller. I mean Hedo is a quality player...whereas Foster = Pollard, Sarunas is NOT = Hedo.


Maybe something like this?

Kings deal:

Brad Miller
Jason Hart

Pacers deal:
Sarunas
Foster
Shawne Williams(take a flyer on the kid, he could play the 3/4 spots possibly?)

or

Brad Miller

for

Sarunas
Foster
top 20 protected 1st rounder?

 

[nbrans]

I'd still like to squeeze more out of Indy for Miller. I mean Hedo is a quality player...whereas Foster = Pollard, Sarunas is NOT = Hedo.

Huh?? What are you talking about?

 

[Smills91]

Huh?? What are you talking about?

I'm still one who is high on Brad Miller, I think he's a quality basketball player.

We dealt Hedo/Pollard for Miller, I'd like to get at least a return SIMILAR to that, since Brad's trade value was diminished due to s&t at the time. He's older and makes more money now, but that should leave his value about where we got him for. A journeyman BIG type and a solid rotational player. Foster fits the bill, but Sarunas IMO doesn't. I'd want a little sweetner to make the deal.

 

[nbrans]

I'm still one who is high on Brad Miller, I think he's a quality basketball player.

We dealt Hedo/Pollard for Miller, I'd like to get at least a return SIMILAR to that, since Brad's trade value was diminished due to s&t at the time. He's older and makes more money now, but that should leave his value about where we got him for. A journeyman BIG type and a solid rotational player. Foster fits the bill, but Sarunas IMO doesn't. I'd want a little sweetner to make the deal.

That trade happened three years ago, it has absolutely no bearing on this deal.

Sarunas is valuable because of his contract and the fact that we're building more cap room going into either this offseason or next offseason. Miller's trade value is virtually zilch at the moment -- his days as an all-star center are long in the past, he has a huge contract and he's not getting any younger. I still like Miller, but if the Kings are going to trade him this is about as good as it's going to get. This may be one of the only ways to trade Miller and get anything of value. Foster is the type of big the Kings need -- he's obviously not the answer, but he's a step in the right direction. If both Bibby and Sarunas opt out in the offseason that's $17 million cap space! Mo Williams AND Verejao here we come.

 

[tjobrien]

I'd still like to squeeze more out of Indy for Miller. I mean Hedo is a quality player...whereas Foster = Pollard, Sarunas is NOT = Hedo.


Maybe something like this?

Kings deal:

Brad Miller
Jason Hart

Pacers deal:
Sarunas
Foster
Shawne Williams(take a flyer on the kid, he could play the 3/4 spots possibly?)

or

Brad Miller

for

Sarunas
Foster
top 20 protected 1st rounder?

Sorry, Brad Miller is not good. Just not good. If you think he's still the same player, I question whether you watch him play, or whether you understand the game. His defense is absolutely atrocious. Especially live. I'm not sure if you have season tickets or if you ever attend games, but if you don't usually, I urge you to catch a game. Brad Miller's effort and just flat out ability on the defensive end are a total handicap. It is one step above playing 5 on 4.

His offense is good, yes, especially when his jumper is hitting. And he's a good passer. But I'm not sure if he's just unhappy, or just getting old...but he hurts our team on the defensive end. This trade idea amuses me because if the Pacers offered Foster for Miller straight up (pretend the contracts work), the Kings would be insane not to take it. Foster rebounds, plays tough defense, and just gives EFFORT.

When the Kings acquired Brad Miller, I would have agreed with you. This would have been not nearly enough. But Brad is just not the same player. Oh, and Foster is much better than Pollard (as much as I love Pollard).

 

[Smills91]

Sorry, Brad Miller is not good. Just not good. If you think he's still the same player, I question whether you watch him play, or whether you understand the game. His defense is absolutely atrocious. Especially live. I'm not sure if you have season tickets or if you ever attend games, but if you don't usually, I urge you to catch a game. Brad Miller's effort and just flat out ability on the defensive end are a total handicap. It is one step above playing 5 on 4.

His offense is good, yes, especially when his jumper is hitting. And he's a good passer. But I'm not sure if he's just unhappy, or just getting old...but he hurts our team on the defensive end. This trade idea amuses me because if the Pacers offered Foster for Miller straight up (pretend the contracts work), the Kings would be insane not to take it. Foster rebounds, plays tough defense, and just gives EFFORT.

When the Kings acquired Brad Miller, I would have agreed with you. This would have been not nearly enough. But Brad is just not the same player. Oh, and Foster is much better than Pollard (as much as I love Pollard).

Actually I live in Louisville, Have League pass, watch EVERY game, and really don't think it's wise to trade players at their lowest value. I understand Brad has been limited by injuries, but he's still a top 10 center in the ENTIRE NBA. Seriously, the guy has skills. Is he the absolute perfect player, NO. However, dumping him for garbage and questioning my basketball intellect is pretty juvenile on your part. Brad Miller is still a quality basketball player.

 

[DocHolliday]

Actually I live in Louisville, Have League pass, watch EVERY game, and really don't think it's wise to trade players at their lowest value. I understand Brad has been limited by injuries, but he's still a top 10 center in the ENTIRE NBA. Seriously, the guy has skills. Is he the absolute perfect player, NO. However, dumping him for garbage and questioning my basketball intellect is pretty juvenile on your part. Brad Miller is still a quality basketball player.

His value is at an all time low and it will only go lower. He's not going to get younger, and quicker. This isn't a stock, this is a human being.

 

[Bricklayer]

I still want no part of Indiana's spare parts. Am open to trading Brad, but not for two more incredibly middling players with extended contracts. An actual ender? Sure. If Chicago wants to dangle PJ Bronw and a pick or kid, I'm listenting. But I don;t want to trade for more 30 yr old guys under contract until 2010. Doesn't accomplish the purpose.

 

[nbrans]

I still want no part of Indiana's spare parts. Am open to trading Brad, but not for two more incredibly middling players with extended contracts. An actual ender? Sure. If Chicago wants to dangle PJ Bronw and a pick or kid, I'm listenting. But I don;t want to trade for more 30 yr old guys under contract until 2010. Doesn't accomplish the purpose.

Well, I wouldn't really consider Foster middling, he's one of the best rebounders in the league, is a pretty good defender, and at $5 million with two years after this year, he's reasonably priced. Jasikevicius has a player option after this year, so he could be a free agent, or at worst he'd expire next year. It may not be ideal, you only end up with $5 million in cap space and a backup-center type, but I also don't think it would be that easy to trade Brad's contract.

In the end Brad may be more valuable to the Kings than what this deal nets, but if the Kings do decide to move him this may be what it looks like.

 

[Bricklayer]

Frankly I'd rather not -- this team doesn't need any more MLE talents. At elast not that we actually pay the MLE. Thoise guys add about zero wins to your toatl, clog your cap, and eat roster spaces that could be used on players with potential. If we're going to clear Brad's salary and get a draft pic or some such sure. But just trading him for lesser vets...there's no future in that. No more middle aged middle talent guys thanks. They mgiht be able to fill in a gap on a good team, but they can't help you when you suck.

 

[tjobrien]

Actually I live in Louisville, Have League pass, watch EVERY game, and really don't think it's wise to trade players at their lowest value. I understand Brad has been limited by injuries, but he's still a top 10 center in the ENTIRE NBA. Seriously, the guy has skills. Is he the absolute perfect player, NO. However, dumping him for garbage and questioning my basketball intellect is pretty juvenile on your part. Brad Miller is still a quality basketball player.

I was rather rude, for that I apologize, but I am telling you - there are things you don't see on TV. Brad is not getting younger or quicker. His defense absolutely kills us. It is PAINFUL. He's not a Top 10 center...and if he is, that's because there are only a handful of good centers in the league. He's essentially a shooting guard in a big, slow, broken down body. Foster is not garbage. He is a role player, but he plays a good role - he's tough and he rebounds (something this team needs terribly). If Brad would just step up, play some defense, and REBOUND I wouldn't be so down on him. All it takes is some effort.

Here's some facts, too. Last season Brad Miller (a top 10 center says you) was rated the 56th (out of 67) centers in terms of rebounding rate. His ESPN PER (Player Efficiency Rating) is down from a peak of over 20 (quite good) in 2004-05 to 14.41 this season. His FG% is waaaaay down to 45%, his lowest (by far) since 2001. His 3PT% is down from a fairly consistent 38% to 6. SIX percent. Even his FT% is way down. His blocks per game are way down to 0.4 (from a career high 1.2 in 2003-04 and 2004-05).

I know you like the guy, I used to really like him, too. And I have nothing against him personally. But he's old and getting older. It happens. As someone else said above, this is not a stock. He's not going to suddenly get better.


Brick: We are paying Brad about 9 million this year, and a combined 33 million over the next 3 years. Foster gets 5.5M this year, and 5.5M more the next 2 years. Which is more reasonable? Jasik has 4M this year and 4M next year. We'd clear Brad's salary 1 year earlier, and half of it 2 years early. Isn't that at least a step in the right direction? NO ONE is crazy enough to give us a draft pick this year for Brad Miller. Maybe Isiah. Heh.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think you rather understimate Brad's value. Considerably actually. Current coach does not know what to do with him, but consider this:

Brad's averaging 10pts 6rebs 3ast in about 26 min a night.
That comes to 15pts 9rebs 4.5ast in 39min a night.

Which is right in the range of what he's been for us for the last few years. And whihc to the right team is very much worth a draft pick. Hes still a considerable player who could put a team over the top if they had a use/plan for him. A high lottery pick? No. But you could spend a decade drafting int eh 20s and never come up with a big of Brads ability. Just have to find somebody in win now mode.

And no, trading Brad for middling junk is no better than trading Webb for middling junk. Ok, its a little better than that, but the same problem exists: you clog up your roster with pieces that nobody else wants, including you. Meanwhile they add nothing to your win total, and interfere with the development of any kids you might have. Just say no to flexible pieces. I'll take my faded has beens over never wases any day of the week. If you trade Brad, or any of our major pieces, as part of a rebuild, it should be for youth, potential and capspace. Nothing else. Certainly no MLE type guys who will never be any better than they are now.

 

[tyrant]

brad miller is not a top 10 center in the NBA. i can name 12 off the top of my head thats better. sit down with a pencil and scratch paper and give me 4 extra minutes; im sure i could come up with 9 more. ive seen better defense at the family ymca. its sickening, it literally makes me wana throw up. tjobrien seems to understand.

 

[PoundForPound]

what i have noticed in games that brad is gone, mike bibby's offense seems to struggle. brad miller sets all these screens, and back cuts etc. for mike to score. the past 2 games his shots have just been pure jumpers and his fg% has dipped.

 

[Smills91]

brad miller is not a top 10 center in the NBA. i can name 12 off the top of my head thats better. sit down with a pencil and scratch paper and give me 4 extra minutes; im sure i could come up with 9 more. ive seen better defense at the family ymca. its sickening, it literally makes me wana throw up. tjobrien seems to understand.

I'll call your bluff, there is no way you'll find 9 CENTERS that are LEGITIMATELY better than Brad Miller...there's no way.

 

[tjobrien]

I'll call your bluff, there is no way you'll find 9 CENTERS that are LEGITIMATELY better than Brad Miller...there's no way.

Guys I would trade straight up for Brad Miller, presuming $ is not an issue:

No-Brainers:

Yao Ming
Amare Stoudemire
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Jermaine O'Neal
Emeka Okafor
Marcus Camby
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Eddy Curry
Andrew Bynum
Andrew Bogut
Mehmet Okur

I'd Think a Bit, But Definitely Do It
Andris Biedrins
Samuel Dalembert
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Chris Kaman
Chris Wilcox
Jeff Foster
Nenad Krstic

Might Not Do It:
Mikki Moore
Brendan Haywood
Mark Blount
Darko Milicic


That's 12 guys that I wouldn't even think twice about. Another 9 that I would think it over, but ultimately pull the trigger. Even if you don't agree with some, there is no way Brad Miller is a Top 10 center.