Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by kingjatt, Mar 27, 2017.
Yeah. Was just lazy to point that out .
I find it somewhat funny when people go into this denial mode and pointing fingers at everyone else but Kings.
I think all we can go off is the history and unfortunately history has not been kind to the Kings, especially since Vivek took over. If you look at the pattern this is exactly the sort of thing that the Kings WOULD do. We can all look at the possible alternatives but history tells us that this is a repeatable pattern for the franchise.
The person that gets hired might not be Hinkie but you can just about guarantee that someone will get hired above Vlade (and they should) or there will be a restructures where Vlade is not the one doing the heavy lifting and is just a figurehead to make the fan base all warm and fuzzy. Then you have a serious question of who in their right mind would want to go to a franchise and report to Vlade? Hinkie would laugh at the fact that his new boss is the very person he fleeced off in a trade a couple of years ago and the Kings are about to pay REALLY big on that trade.
When multiple sources confirm something, then more often than not there is a fair amount of truth to it.
Here's the thing, Vlade has made it clear from the beginning that he wants the buck to stop with him. If someone is hired above him (or asked to be a figurehead), I believe he will resign. Whether you like what he has done or not, I don't think you could blame him.
A move like this would essentially start the rebuild over once again. Most new GMs what to put their stamp on things (make sure they get the credit). There would really be no point to such a move at this time IMO.
And that right there is why the rumors scare the crap out of me. It would be so ... #KANGZ.
I have a couple questions I would like the jump the gunners in here to answer.
1. Is this different if this is hiring Hinkie as GM with Vlade as President of Basketball Ops
2. Why does the premiss of hiring Hinkie mean automatically a 3-5 year tank job?
3. Do people think Hinkie only knows how to tank?
I feel your pain brother.
So to answer my question..........2019 pick and maybe a swap this year. But the Kings got Malachi and Koufos from that deal and they are still assets on the team.
I just don't buy the "worst trade of the century" hyperbole.
Is there evidence he can do anything else? Maybe his reputation is unfair - but my impression is that all he can do is persistently and stubbornly tank... forever. I think he's a con man.
1. It depends on who does the hiring. If Vlade, then not a problem. If Vivek, then it undermines Vlade's authority and continues the disfunction.
2. It doesn't, but it's not unreasonable to think it could and I'm not sure how many of us are up for that.
3. There is no evidence that he can do anything else. Obviously, that doesn't mean he can't, but we don't know that he can be successful at anything else.
The ONLY thing that matters is the continued incompetence of our owner. At this point EVERYTHING ELSE is rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.
This is the roster Hinkie started to rebuild. Doug Collins was the coach and they were 34-48. Sound similar? He ripped it to the ground, and the ONLY asset they had was Jrue Holiday. This is different, that process has already started and we have some picks and valuable young players.
Hinkie was right. He missed on a couple picks, but he got the Sixers to a place of hope. I hate tanking, but we are doing it right now.
I don't agree that taking a 34 win team and then winning 19, 18, and 10 games just to get back to about 30 wins 4 years later is "right" or doing it right.
Could a more creative and less cynical GM have done it faster and more productively? Obviously, the 76ers leadership thought yes.
The plan was to draft a franchise player. They did with Embiid if he can stay healthy. They might have with Simmons too and they get another shot this year. Winning 30 games this year is irrelevant. Embiid missed half the season, Simmons missed the whole season. We'll know in 5 years if it worked or not. From what I can see the only dumb move they've made is keeping Okafor instead of Noel and that was a Bryan Colangelo move not a Sam Hinkie move. Creativity is looking at the same things everyone else sees and saying to yourself "how can I do something different?" Colangelo is a bean counter. He might as well be any other GM in the league. Say what you want about Hinkie, you absolutely cannot say he wasn't creative. If you think that you haven't been paying attention. It's not like he just said "let's lose on purpose". Look at who he drafted and where he drafted them and how he got those picks and who he traded and when. If tanking successfully were so easy a 5 year old could do it how come this franchise hasn't been able to do it once in its 30 year history in Sacramento?
Let me ask you this: in 2007 the Kings had a 33 win team led by perennial almost All Star Mike Bibby at 28, a 27 year old Ron Artest in his DPOY prime, and a 23 year old Kevin Martin who just averaged 20 points per game. With Rick Adelman gone they missed the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. 10 years later we're still hovering around 30 wins and working on a steak of 10 straight seasons of missing the playoffs and drafting outside the top 3. In that time we drafted and then traded one franchise player. Somehow in spite of all this we're further away from playoff relevance now then we were 10 years ago. In retrospect doesn't the short tear down and stockpiling of draft picks that Hinkie orchestrated seem like a better alternative than the poking about in the weeds that we've been doing? Those fans were 100% rooting for losses for three years and now they're 100% rooting for wins because of the genius of the swap rights deal. They know they're getting a great shot at a top 3 pick this year no matter what and a guaranteed top 10 pick from us in 2019, they have the consensus ROY at center and the runner up at PF and a first overall pick coming in next year, maybe even two all for 3 years of telegraphed guilt free tanking. Those fans chanted The Process this season with pride after Hinkie had been fired! He's a folk hero over there.
Basketball isn't life and death. If you know you're coming back from the dead every season regardless do you want a shot in the head and it's over or a stomach wound that bleeds out over 3 long painful days (make that 10 years)? Even the players have been spared the stink of losing. This is Embiid's first year, Saric's first year, Simmons hasn't played a minute yet. If that team makes the playoffs next year and continues making the playoffs those 3 years will be ancient history. Our scars will take much much longer to heal. Some fans have already tapped out for good. No fanbase has been put through the ringer more thoroughly and frequently than this one. So time will tell but I think when they ultimately write the history on The Process it will be seen as a resounding success. The history on our process will be a tragicomedy that defies belief.
The sixers model could arguably be compared to the cubs model. We'll see how it goes for them. I'm not convinced, however, that there are only two models (the tank or continual mediocrity) to choose from.
If Hinke was able to evaluate talent and put together a team rather than just tank, the 76ers would be a solid playoff team by now, considering how many high draft picks he had over the last 5-6 years.
But he is not a good talent elevator and he takes way too many risks on injury prone big men that have yet to pan out, including Noel and Embiid. Embiid has not played 40 games in over 3 seasons and Noel was traded for a 2nd round pick at the deadline. The rest of his picks have been disappointments.
The only thing I would say Hinke has over Vlade is his ability to use his cap space to accumulate draft picks, which goes along with not spending any money on players and tanking for so long, and then he screws up the draft pick he accumulates.
As far as fleecing Vlade on the Philly trade, that has yet to be seen. The pick swaps may never happen. And if the Kings pick well with their 2 lottery picks in this years draft and next years draft pick, there is no reason why the Kings 2019 pick won't be a late lottery or lower pick (i.e. #10-16). The Kings already got a first round pick (#22) back from trading Bellilini and drafted Malichi Richardson. The Kings also got their starting center, KK from the salary cap room from that trade.
Fact is, no one knows how the Philly trade works or doesn't work out until the summer of 2019
The Cubs were fighting against 100+ years of "business as usual" and it worked didn't it? Hard to see that re-build as anything but a success already at this point. Cubs fans probably don't even care if they never win another one in their lifetime right now, at least they finally did it.
I don't think there are only two models either, I just strongly disagree with the assertion that Sam Hinkie's process was uncreative or ineffective. Other GMs have traded productive players for picks, capitalized on players who slid in the draft due to injury concerns rather than talent, taken draft and stash foreign players to extend their lottery odds as long as possible, and used cap space to claim future picks from desperate teams. No other GM has managed to do all of them at once with unwavering focus on the end goal. That goal was to win the lottery and he accomplished it in 3 years. Whether that translates into winning basketball or not is still undetermined but anyone who saw Embiid play this season has to be excited about their future. If you're just looking at wins rather than roster makeup and assets I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The whole point of tearing down the team was to avoid the mid-lottery purgatory which keeps so many teams kicking the can down the road for 10 years with nothing to show for it. He was trying to build a long-term winner and we're in year 1 of seeing how the players he drafted will work out so it's far too soon to call him a failure. I don't think he's a great GM, he missed on a lot of talent with his treasure trove of picks too. I just admire his commitment to a plan. Any plan. It was a plan that no other GM has had the guts (and ownership support) to carry out before. A plan that was guaranteed to draw the ire and ridicule of 29 other NBA owners and he stuck to it long enough to see it fully carried out. Maybe that's why he stepped down. There's nothing for them to do at this point but wait and see if it worked. The seeds have all been planted.
To be clear, I don't think Hinkie is any kind of folk hero for what he did. But if you remember the magnitude of the mismanagement those fans endured for decades before he got there, it makes sense why his bold decision to charge as hard as he could in the opposite direction of common sense was embraced there the way that it was. They couldn't build around Iverson, they stuffed up their capspace with mediocre veterans over and over again, they couldn't build around Igoudala, they went all in on a disastrous Andrew Bynum trade. This is #Kangz level incompetence that dominated the Sixers front office for all of the 90s and 2000s. Sam Hinkie said he would put a stop to all of that. Everything would be thrown on the fire until he drafted a franchise player or two and it looks like he did it. Everything is contextual. I don't think bringing in Hinkie -- or even flirting with the idea -- is the right move for us right now for the reasons I mentioned earlier. But then I've all but given up hope that this team will ever be competitive again as long as Ranadive keeps meddling. Whatever good fortune we luck into will be sabotaged. Whatever good vibes the players manage to generate on their own will be extinguished. He's an absolute wrecking ball of hubris and mismanagement. So from my point of view, 3 years of brazen tanking for an All-NBA center and two of the most exciting young forwards in the game would be a breath of fresh air compared to where we are now. We have no place turning up our noses at Sam Hinkie as a GM or touting fair play. It's going to be a long and miserable road until Vivek is forced out and there's nothing we can do about it but root for the players and coaches who wear this uniform and who all deserve better than what this management will give them.
I think you guys are overrating the hell out of Hinkie. The Sixers aren't even good yet and their franchise player may end up going the route of Greg Oden.
Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to trade your current assets for future picks and tank in the meantime to up yourself in the lottery. The Kings have proven to go KANGZ nearly every year while tanking their own lottery chanceas by playing .500 the last few weeks of every season instead of just settling into a top 5 pick. Top that with the fact that they were trying to win now with Cousins and it wasn't so simple to just tank like the Sixers did. Besides if we did that, the Kings might be in Seattle right now.
Actually I have a very hard time to understand the love Vlade Divac gets around here and why Kings Fans are looking down on Sam Hinkie.
Hinkie had a clear vision and followed an actual plan by going all in on it. Meanwhile Vlade Divac changed courses four times in 2 years, lost 2 of his 3 major trades with the result of the third still up in the air, had quite a few horrible FA signings, hasn't shown any talent to find overlooked players and never commited to anything to the fullest. Ultimately the Kings went nowhere under Divac and are once again at the start of a lengthy rebuilding process. All the concerns about our ownership aside, I still have a hard time to figure out, why people trust Vlade Divac to lead the Kings into a successful future.
If you overrate the prospects of Skal, Willie, Papa, Richardson, and Bodgan .... and put on the purple colored glasses .... and ignore the deep systemic dysfunction ... then you can TOTALLY see it.
To be fair, the best way to overcome dysfunction is not to add more dysfunction to the mix. This isn't a "maybe if I blow on it some more, it'll get fixed" sorta deal.
Go away Vivek
Re the NBA role, it was just that Koz reported that "sources" said that the NBA (and minority owners) were putting pressure on the Kings organization to operate more professionally. That was the extent of it; he didn't report who the source(s) were that made the statement about the NBA.
Let's discuss what the goal was in Phili really quick. The goal was not to create a playoff team. The goal was to create a title contending team, (sans 2004 Pistons) we have not seen a team win a title without 1 top 10 player and 2 top 20 players in the last 20+ years. You need superstars, and multiple of them to win a title in the NBA. They make up 40-50% of the usage on those teams. So could Hinkie have gotten the Sixers to become a 45-50 win team sooner than later, sure, but that wasn't the goal. It was to try and get 1 - 3 transformative players.
Now you can argue whether he accomplished that or not all day.
I did not have impression that somebody is arguing that Vlade is better than Hinkie.
If you want to do yet another change (which might remove the last sane person - coach) you need a clear upgrade, not the same level.
I agree, Hinkie is consistent, for whatever is that worth.
However, his plan was trivial. Pick anyone from the street and give him a green light, and they can make team lose.
He showed some skill in trading for draft picks as making his team be known as the salary dumpster of the league and the entrance cost is draft pick (mostly second round).
I do not see his skill in anything else (player-player trading, player development, player matching, team identity, quality drafting...). He was canned from his job after 3 years.
His plan has been going on for 4 years. What Sixers have to show for it?
I agree with the first part. However, Sam Hinkie hasn't proven to be competent in the least. How anybody could argue otherwise is beyond me. As pointed out already by others, it's not a genius strategy to play D-League players for numerous years in order to maximize chances at the highest lottery pick possible. Even doing that for seemingly an eternity now, the Sixers aren't better than the Kings right now even after they traded away DeMarcus Cousins.
The real challenge for any GM is to win as many games as possible each and every year and still improve the team. It's not easy, but that's what the fans deserve and what they should be trying to do. If you're gonna do what Philly did, you better heavily discount ticket prices during that time otherwise it's a complete scam. But, for the integrity of the game and to do right by the fans that buy your tickets, merchandise and watch on TV -- you need to try to win each night with what you have then try to improve by actually knowing what your are doing in the draft, FA and via trades.
Unfortunately, there's too many Sam Hinkie's out there that don't really know the craft. They are just advanced stats guys with degrees from MIT or wherever that don't have the first clue how to evaluate talent or hire/trust the guys that do. Anybody can hit a bullseye or two if they throw enough darts at the board. That's really all Hinkie tried to do. I'd rather have a real GM that can find talent and build a team no matter what position they are drafting.
Based on all of the above, doesn't it seem pretty likely that the Kings organization will have a major addition by the time next season starts? After all, there has been no refutation of the Kings looking for someone to add to their organization. And there seems to be pressure by the NBA and minority owners to do so. The refutation by Vivek concerns only Hinkie, not a generic Mr. X. Do we expect Vivek will stop looking for Mr. X just because Hinkie isn't on the list? That seems doubtful. I'm just curious what role they have in mind for Mr. X. I'm also in agreement that nobody of any stature would take a position with this organization under Divac.
Here is the problem with Hinke model.
Not all transformative players are picked in the top 1 or 2 every year. In fact, most are not picked in the top 1, 2. For example Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, James Harden, Russel Westbrook, Kawai Leonard, Paul George, to name a few were all picked way past the number 1 pick.
Now, you show me a GM who only wants to tank and accumulate high draft picks, and I will show you a GM who is not a good talent evaluator and he NEEDS a top 3 pick to get a good player. There are great players picked throughout the 1st and 2nd rounds, but the GM needs that eye for talent to pick the right player.
A GM with the goal of tanking long term, breeds players that have a loser or tank mentality, which is not good for long term success of any team.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is we really won't be surprised no matter what happens. I think a good portion of the fan base has just become totally numb to anything that happens off the court. It's like finally realizing you're living in Wonderland...you might as well just go to the tea party and have a good time.
And who is the Mad Hatter, may I ask?