[Rumor]Kings/Ranadive interested in Sam Hinkie

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by kingjatt, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but: (1) in the summer of 2015, they were in such a rush / of belief they were going to be a regular playoff team they gave up an unprotected 2019 pick instead of making the same moves and just stretching 5 million of dead money on a 100 million dollar cap; and (2) at the very start of 2017, the were blowing things up and trying to get back picks and assets for their best player to "rebuild" over a few days. That's nuts and reflects the poor ownership and management that maligns the team.
  2. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    I still hate how George Karl torpedoed that team last year. I watched them play a lot in November and December and I'm convinced they were a playoff team with a few tweaks. I'm not as down on Vlade as some people are. Mostly I just think he needs a negotiator to do his negotiating for him because he's been so eager to make deals that he gives up too much and that reputation as a pushover is going to follow him around until he takes a hard stand and makes somebody else flinch first.
    parker likes this.
  3. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I agree with you. I understand the anger some of Cousins fans feel. I've felt the same way in the past. But I think you have to separate emotions from reality. I've been around for a long time. Some would say too long. And as I review my life, as I'm prone to do at times, I can find countless times where I wish I had a do over. Where I either made a bad decision, or, made the decision badly. And most of the time, those decisions were agenda driven. Maybe too much so, but at the time, most seemed right.

    That's a long winded way of saying, that looking in the rear view mirror is a 100%. I think it's OK to be critical of results to a point. But until you know all the gory details of what happened in real time, including stops at the bathroom, lunch breaks, people that didn't answer their phone, and getting caught in traffic, our criticism can only be in general and not specific. It's like wanting to throw a big rock, and all you can find are pebbles. Just not enough info, and it's info we'll probably never have. Unless Vlade decides to write a book in the future.

    But I agree that to think that Vlade sat around and waited for the worse deal he could find is ridiculous. Contrary to Vlade's broken english, he's not a stupid man. His much criticized draft is starting to look like one of our better one's in some time. Here's one way of looking at the trade. Yes, we got Buddy Hield, and so far, he looks like the real deal. How good he'll eventually be is anyone's guess, but considering his work ethic, I feel confident he'll reach whatever potential he has. We also got the Pelicans 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick, which was originally Philly's pick. Plus, I think there's a better than even chance, that if we hadn't made the trade, we would finished high enough to lose our own pick. Trading Cousins almost guaranteed we'd keep our pick.

    Keeping our pick is just a bi-product of the trade, and not a reason for making the trade. But the bottom line is we'll have two 1st round picks in the coming draft that in all likelyhood, we wouldn't have otherwise. So until we see who we draft, and how they develop as players, along with Hield, it's hard to pass any kind of long term judgement on the trade.

    Do I think we got enough for Cousins? No, I don't. But, if we were going to get more for him, we should have traded him last summer. Without knowing why Vlade didn't, when it's apparent he wanted to, I can't be too critical of Vlade. I can however be critical of the Kings organization, because someone had the power to stop Vlade. Wild guess? Vivek. Those who never wanted to trade Cuz, would still be angry, but if we had gotten a Kings ransom for him, the entire thing would have been more palatable.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  4. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    It's not hindsight. The smart people in the national media called the 76ers trade bad 4 minutes after the trade happened and fully explained why it was bad and unnecessary. They were labeled "haters" by some and the Kings even made an ad where Doug Christie thanked them "for the motivation."

    Keeping DMC for 4 months see if they could do better in June Or losing a pick the Bulls was not a either or call. Trade Collision for a second rounder and start resting players sooner. If not for the fear of Vivek changing his mind .. they could have done both. So, I don't disagree it was a byproduct ... but that result was achievable without rushing the DMC trade window.
  5. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    I think it's fine to compile Dieter and Charles and most of all Skip Bayless.

    I meant Woj really, as the champion of the "national narrative". But yeah you can cite other examples - I made a rash statement there
    Sac.1989 and Suicide King like this.
  6. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    I really think it was an either or call on whether the Kings would had kept their top 10 pick.

    If the Kings would had kept DMC, it would had been full steam ahead to try and make the playoffs, therefore losing their 1st round pick in the process.

    The decision was pretty cut and dry, really. Rebuild at the trade deadline and move DMC, thus keeping our own 1st round pick or continue to fight for the playoffs.

    I mean really, what would be the point of keeping DMC and not try to make the playoffs?

    Trading Darren Collison (or any other vet) is not going to send your team into tank-dom, but trading DMC would. You can't really justify siting out DMC starting at the All-Star break! ;)
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  7. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    what really boggles my mind is that lil goblin even agreed to sign the winningest coach in nba history when there were reports **** was not cool in boogie's camp.
    Sac.1989 likes this.
  8. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    Respecting a person, doesn't mean I need to respect every decision they make. When people make decisions, they always think they have good reasons to back up their decision. That doesn't necessarily mean that's really the case or that a different person wouldn't net a better overall result, when faced with the same kind of decisive situation. Respect for decisions has to be earned. Universal respect for the person is a given.
    Vlade will earn my respect for his decisions, when it's proven he made the right moves. Until this is the case and the Kings actually start winning, I will remain critical. But being critical is not the same as disrespecting Vlade on a personal level, much like disagreeing with people on this board doesn't mean I disrespect them as persons.

    We can't comment about what leverage Vlade actually had. At least we can't comment in a way, that apppears like we actually know something for sure about it. But that doesn't mean we are not allowed to express some doubts.
    Usually negotiations don't work like this: You get an offer and the only thing you can do is take it or leave it. The outcome of negotiations is to some extent a result of the negotiating skills of the people involved.
    Now when a GM makes two trades and both trades are universally viewed as lopsided and not even valued, where is the problem with expressing doubts about the negotiating skills of said GM, even if we don't know excactly what kind of leverage he had, going into the negotiations? That has nothing to do with Vlade being a sophisticated and intelligent man. Being intelligent doesn't mean you are a good negotiator.

    You act like the trades somehow happened in a vacuum and Vlade had no control over the circumstances that led to the overall disappointing results. That's not the case from my point of view.
    It was Vlade, who couldn't convince Wes Matthews to sign with the Kings. It was Vlade, who settled for Bellinelli, who didn't pan out at all with the Kings. It was Vlade, who decided to keep Karl in place despite the doubts of the possible friction between Karl and the team. In fact he decided to keep Karl in place twice, even after the team just quit on the coach.
    Of course for every decision Vlade made there is some rational. Nobody is saying that Vlade is acting irrattional. What people are doubting is, if Vlade's decisions were right or if he was achieving the best possible result.
    He decided to try to win now. It didn't work. Of course people will doubt his decisionmaking. That's how those things work.

    What really concerns me though is the lack of strategic continuity. We try to win now for one season, only to go for a somewhat double edged strategy between win now with low key vets+ DMC and draft raw, young prospects the next year and than complain about the lack of results and blow it up completely half way in.
    I personally never expected the team constructed by Vlade before this past season to be a real competitor for the Playoffs. This doesn't change the fact, that it was Vlade's team and that he is responsible for the result. But instead the blaim for the season was almost entirely shifted to DMC by some people and that's something I have a very hard time to understand. DMC didn't sign FA's, he didn't draft rookies, who were redundant to the current personell and he also didn't hire a coach, who maybe rightfully refused to give those rookies playing time until the season was basically over.
    Again of course there are reasons, why Vlade did all this. Some are obvious, some are the object of fruitless speculations by fans - but ultimately Vlade's approach of winning with vets didn't work and he is responsible for that.
    So again why should we give Vlade the benefit of the doubt? He failed to reach the goal for two seasons in a row. He didn't provide stability in the organisation. He came out of two trades with underwhelming results. That's part of his body of work and there is no need to sugarcoat this.
    Now of course Vlade did some good work. Nobody is denying that. He made a very decent draft day trade for Bellinelli and therefore cleaned up his own mess a bit. His draft picks looked solid against NBA level competition late in the season, with only the small questionmark attached how hard some teams at this time of the schedule were actually playing.
    This is also Vlade's body of work and he should be given some credit for it.
    But we can't overvalue the good things and downplay the bad things. That's doesn't lead anywhere. I get that's the comfortable thing to do, because it gives us hope for the future, but I simply can't do that and I won't apologize for it, just because it bothers some people on this board.
    The Vlade critics on this board are civil and besides some mockery of the culture thing Vlade started (I mean some fun has to be allowed right? ;)), provide some well thought out arguments and interesting posts. Nothing wrong with that.

    I want to add a final thought. I won't ever criticize Vlade for his language skills. Heck Vlade sure as hell does a better job talking live in english than I do. My grammar also might be worse.
    The thing that bothers me though is, that his comment about the better offer being pulled two days ago, had nothing to do with language skills. Even if I'm not fluent in english, I can very well think about it in advance, what kind of information I want to share with certain people and what information I keep for myself. Sharing this kind of information with the media, was terrible for Vlade and for the Kings, because this made us look unprofessional. There was no need for that. And I still can't really grasp the fact, that a GM of an NBA franchise actually did this.
    ńĆarolija likes this.
  9. whozit

    whozit Well-Known Member

    You make some good points but not once did you mention the elephant in the room. And his name is in the title of this thread. The critics of DMC used to say DMC was the one constant but he wasn't. The other constant remains. Vlade has made mistakes (how he handled the before and after regarding the DMC trade being a huge one) but a lot of what you have attributed to Vlade, the organizational instability and failure to follow thru with a plan predates Vlade. That I feel lays at the feet of the man above him and that is where that blame should fall.
    VF21 likes this.
  10. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Anything new since March 27?
  11. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    True, but it's more likely that Vlade is removed or some additional professional is hired to make Vlade's life easier or to make him more of a figurehead for the fans, than a change in ownership occurs.
  12. whozit

    whozit Well-Known Member

    And then problem will just continue. I am going to just have to hope Vlade shows off his diplomatic skills and keeps Vivek in check. He has showed the ability to recognize when things weren't going by script and recover from mistakes (Bellinelli) along with having contingency plans (Papa along with as he said restocking the cupboards).

    Or we can hope for a coup from the minority owners (bad audit perhaps). Not holding my breath for this one.
  13. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    They couldn't do better when he was an expiring and his agents were threatening teams he wouldn't re sign. I don't think they would've gotten the same return at all had they waited til this summer. And the team was 2 games out from 10 and 4 games out of 11 worst record. May have been close
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  14. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    Although Vlade should have moved him LAST summer, I am starting to warm up to the idea that it was correct to move Boogie at the deadline rather than wait till this summer. We almost certainly would have lost our first round pick this season "chasing" the playoffs and then all the drama about him not signing an extension still would have come out this summer, lowering his haul as it did at the deadline. And it did work out to where we get 2 top 10 picks. And we got some great development time to WCS, Buddy, Skal and Papa.

    Someone already posted this before, but who says no to Buddy, any of the PG's who can be there at 8, and Isaac/Markannen/Collins for Boogie? We would have done better had we traded him earlier, but that's still a really damn good rebuilding haul for a star with as much baggage as Boogie.
    King Baller, ockingsfan and John Galt like this.
  15. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Yes.

    This is what I said all along.

    Vlade made the right moves. He gave coach Joeger a half a season to see if he could turn the ship around convincingly, meaning solid #6-7 playoff team. When we were still chasing #8 at the trade deadline, he pulled the trigger on the DMC trade. You can't fault Vlade for waiting and wanting to see if Coach Joeger could have made the team a solid playoff team, before he traded DMC.

    Now, the Kings got a pretty good haul of 3 lottery picks and an early 2017 2nd round pick for DMC (who's agent told everyone he wouldn't re-sign) at the deadline: Buddy (2016 6th pick), kept our 2017 (#8) and N.O. #10 (hopefully).

    I think Vlade knows what he was doing. ;)
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  16. KingsFanSince85

    KingsFanSince85 Well-Known Member

    And we'll re-sign Boogie as a FA after the 17/18 season :rolleyes: It'll be our version of the Cleveland Cavs wherein LeBron left so that they could load their roster with 1st round draft picks upon his return. :p
  17. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    Yes I absolutely can. Pick a direction and stick with it. If his plan was to trade Boogie all along, then trade him with more time on his contract so we can get a bigger haul for our biggest asset and start the development process sooner.

    We would have had 4 or 5 really attractive offers last summer had we made him available to the whole league. Ainge said he wasn't in on Boogie ever, but I highly doubt he would have passed on 2 years of Boogie for the BK pick in 2017 and the #3 pick in 2016. And our own pick would have been far worse which likely would have lead to 2 top 5 picks this upcoming season. Hell, there were reports that other teams were pissed that Vlade didn't even talk to them about a Boogie deal. Who knows what was left on the table?

    All that said, I'm still fairly pleased with the direction of the team with a lot of talent coming in and a very likely top 5 pick after next season. I do think we actually have a future for the first time since Boogie was drafted rather than just treading water forever.
  18. Blob

    Blob Well-Known Member

    Or he got out-witted badly... and may get lucky in spite of himself. ;) ;)

    Let's not assign competency for what may turn out to be serendipity. The Kings look fortunate NOP were not too good (ending 12th instead of 10th worst) or too bad (with better than 4% chance of Top 3). No credit is due our GM for NOP finishing 10th worst. It has 96% chance to convey yet on cusp where we can get nice prospect and potential star. That's no thanks to Vlade. That's shaping up as luck not yet finalized.

    Vlade didn't know what he was doing when he agreed protection on 2017 pick and did not get 2019 pick for NOP. He panicked and consummated deal before teams would have upped ante if pitted against each other with 4 days to deadline. He was in a figurative stare down and he blinked first! At risk of repeating myself I can't emphasized enough VLADE was holding the cards with BEST asset yet negotiated from position of perceived weakness. This was obvious by comments post trade. There was a naivety and emotionalism of a guy over his head and susceptible to being taken advantage of.

    So while it took courage and guts to pull trigger on "6 year experiment" and change course of franchise and rightful admission it was not working, the execution was gloriously botched! I am not going to sit by and engage in revisionism and give Vlade credit for amateur hour at negotiating table! I do credit him however for targeting Buddy. I loved the kid before draft and had a confidence he would play as well as he did. In fact he played better than I thought, with solid playmaking in between game and 60% TS. I credit Vlade for not being dissuaded by underwhelming play with NOP. Now that we have new assistant GM and someone not afraid to work the phones, the days of getting fleeced and needing luck thereafter are hopefully behind us!

    Onward and upward with our flawed but earnest GM!


    (Edited by Capt. to fix quoting error)
  19. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    You forget that Vivek was more than likely not allowing Vlade to trade DMC at this point last summer.

    Vlade rolled with what he had, if the owner doesn't sign off on a trade of your franchise player, what can Vlade do? From all indications, Vivek did not allow Vlade to trade DMC until he gave in during the all-star weekend.
  20. Suicide King

    Suicide King Active Member

    If DMC had been traded before we hired Joerger he may not have joined us. Too many variables and all that is done now.

    On to the 2017/2018 season with a much stronger front office and a promising group of young players. Looking forward to how we look at the start of next season.
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  21. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I agree. I believe that if Cousins actions hadn't prompted Vivek to change his mind, the trade wouldn't have happened, and Cuz would still be here. But prior to the all star break, with Cousins sitting one technical shy of a suspension, the league officals in charge of the ref's came to talk to Cousins, and told him that there were a couple of technicals they were thinking of rescinding. Cuz promptly went out and got another tech and got suspended. Then came the Warrior game, which we won, but Cuz cursed out a fan in the stands, and then flipped off a Warrior fan asking for an autograph outside the locker room door. I think those events became the straw that broke the camels back for Vivek.

    He finally gave Vlade the OK and the rest is history. When Vlade couldn't get the deal he wanted, he had a choice. Take a lesser deal, or wait till summer. I think Vlade was afraid that if he waited, Vivek might change his mind, so he took the best deal he could find at the time. We can argue endlessly about whether that was a mistake or not, but we'll never know for sure one way or the other.
  22. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I go to summer league every year, and I find myself more excited this year than I've been in a while. I like the way the team finished the year, giving a 100% every time out. I can see possibilities for the future. It's time for things to go right for a change. I love Joerger as a coach, and I haven't felt that way for a while. So I'm optimistic. This may be the most important off season the Kings have had in a very long time. Hopefully they get things right..
  23. Suicide King

    Suicide King Active Member

    @bajaden

    You and I share the same sentiments then. Joerger is the first coach since Rick I really like. His assistants, the staff in Reno, everyone doing a fantastic job.

    New and well recieved front office help.

    What I like most maybe, is we have the bulk of our team going to be young and molded together, grow together, under a good coach.

    Very exciting. If I ever get to move out west I would love to attend a SL and meet some folks.
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  24. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Wow.

    It's amazing that everything good that comes out of the DMC trade, 3 lottery 1st round picks and a high 2nd round pick, is just luck?!?!

    I think that the N.O. top 3 pick protection is over blown. I think vlade looked at where New Orleans would probably end up with both DMC and Anthony Davis, #10-15 pick and the chances they win a top 3, being very low and not worth the risk of New Orleans backing out of the deal to demand.

    Really, it is all a gamble, same with the philly pick swaps, which looks like it probably won't take effect. You play the odds and see what is the likelihood that the stipulations take effect and is it worth not making the deal.

    Even if the stipulations do take effect, the chances were low to begin with, so if they do occur, so be it. If you're trying to shake things up and improve a team that was stuck going no where for so long, those are the chances worth taking.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017 at 9:05 AM
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