Rebuild Strategy

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by dude12, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Nokidding

    Nokidding Active Member

    George Hill fits the bill of every single one of those
    lwc and kingsfan1984 like this.
  2. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    What about Buddy Hield? He's only playing 22mpg. We should be playing this guy 30min a night minimum.
  3. JCTNKINGFAN

    JCTNKINGFAN Active Member

    Yep, I'm afraid I would have to agree with that, the only difference being Hill is not part of the future and the Kings are not trying "to develop" him. I don’t know what is up with Hill, and I suspect the Kings don’t either. For whatever reason, he is not providing the on the floor mentoring, leadership, or even just good basketball that the Kings expected when they signed him. I am not going to hammer him, I don’t know what devils he is battling, whether, health, family, or personal. All I know is the results are not there. The Kings would be better off and he might be too, if the Kings could just move on from him. But that is a tricky proposition, he is a well-respected veteran and as far as I know has a good reputation. If not handled properly, it could become a major distraction and impediment to team chemistry and cohesiveness. It would be nice if the Kings could work out some accommodation to move him when he becomes eligible.
    pdxKingsFan and Nokidding like this.
  4. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I don't see really anyone as untouchable on this team.

    Considering we do have so many young players that aren't considered blue chip prospects, I really hope that we are aggressive by trying to use them to move up in drafts. Packaging our 2018 1st with Hield (for example) to try and move up. Moving Bogdanovic & Cauley-Stein for Cleveland's Brooklyn pick during the draft (while taking back some unwanted salary) so Clevland doesn't have to wait on developing a 19 year old rookie to be a useful piece next to LeBron. Trades like that where we can hopefully increase our collection of blue chip prospects is what we need to ultimately be doing.

    I'm terrified that our front office is going to attempt to rush the rebuild in an attempt to not convey a high 2019 pick. We are no where close to being ready so I hope they don't hamstring us and leave us in treadmill territory where we will be drafting from the 8-10 spots. I'd entertain the idea of trading Fox for our 2019 pick if it meant preventing our FO from idiocy, but obviously Fox on the 76ers doesn't make a lot of sense fit wise. I think something like Fox to Denver, Murray to the 76ers, and our 2019 pick to the Kings probably makes more sense. It gives the 76ers two promising guards who can spread the floor and play off the ball while also allowing them to be more competitive in the near term. Denver gets it's PG (unless they are still wanting to roll with Mudiay) who fits well next to Harris. Those two could end up being an excellent defensive duo.

    It's not going to happen but I'd like to see our front office do this rebuild right and not confuse the idea of "having a lot of youth" with "we have the young potential we need to start pushing forward."

    EDIT: the other issue with having some many meh to okay young players without any established players who look to be a franchise player is that a lot of these guys will be up for an extension before we know the identify of this team. Again, this is why I hope our FO is okay with sending these players out to move up in the draft or even just moving them for future picks or players that still have a few years on their rookie deals to avoid bleeding talent while also maintaining cap flexibility for potential salary dump trades that net us more assets.
    206Fan likes this.
  5. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    I'm going out on a limb and guess that all this debate about the youngins not getting enough minutes at the expense of Hill, Randolph, et al, is going to be moot in about a month. Then Giles plays, and Fox & Co. play a lot more. Also, I do think Hill is going to be gone by the trade deadline because Divac is not blind to what we can see -Hill playing hard in only enough games to demonstrate to the league that he still can in fact play. Maybe even Randolph gets traded, as he continues to show his value to the league. Now if Zach is still putting up big numbers in March and April and winning a few games for the Kings because of it, then yes, that will be a ridiculous outcome imo and I wouldn't be happy about it. But I'm not close to going there yet.
  6. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member


    You still have to be concerned about value hence the term rebuild. They are investing the time in their most valuable pieces. If you aren't winning anyway, that is what you can gain. Experience is experience as well. I highly doubt you'll find many players that go along with the mantra of the less time the better.
    206Fan likes this.
  7. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    These guys didn't pick up a basketball last week. There is a reason there are serious interviews predraft because historically the habits these players bring into the league are what they stick with. It just is what it is. And when the instruction is flawed you will do far more harm than good. Joerger isn't some HOF coach who's every whisper will or should be taken as gospel. It won't anyway. And again, many of these young players aren't so young. Packing a 19 year old on some ice is one thing, but that doesn't exactly describe the majority of the young core the Kings have constructed. NBA coaches rarely teach players how to play. They install a system, practice schedules, set rotations, etc. but the large majority of players improve and makes those leaps on their own in the summer with training specialists or with other members of the staff. It's up to the coach to whether or not those skills or talents go to waste. And in terms of confidence destroying, Joerger has a situation on his hands currently that is the utmost no, no in that regard. Players want consistency, his in game management is the definition of inconsistent.
    The Effort Police likes this.
  8. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Why is Zubac not getting his?
  9. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Because Zubac is in the same boat as Papagiannis. Both are projects.
    Plus they already have other young bigs getting the minutes.
    23 yearold Randle
    24 yearold Nance Jr
    22 yearold Kuzma

    Kings only got 24yearold WCS. The other guys getting the big minutes are vets
    SacTownKid likes this.
  10. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member


    What's their relative investment in him though? The values aren't equal. He's a still very young big man drafted as a 2nd rounder who they have time to wait on. He will rightfully take a backseat to the other young bigs they have on the roster. They are supporting young players with a few veterans, not the other way around like the Kings.
    kingjatt likes this.
  11. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Lakers love fest:)
  12. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    That's what I mean.
    The one thing I have learned about Vivek is that he views everyone as expendable. Just ask Nik Stauskas. I think our front office would have no problem with moving any of our young guys, even Fox, at any time. My fear is that we don't use the pieces we have correctly. For example, instead of attaching Hield to our 2018 1st to move up, we trade him to some team who agrees to take Hill of our hands because we panic and look to get out from under his deal asap. Or instead of trying to trade WCS in some sort of package deal we just let him walk. I really hope our front office handles this wisely, but because of my preconceived complete lack of faith, I'm not sure they do.
  13. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    This narrative would make sense if you had 3-4 prospects who weren't better than anybody in front of them and you were just force feeding them minutes.

    The Kings roster is mostly young players who need reps. Need reps now. Moreso, when practice gets limited and these guys are mostly shooting around. The odds are higher they loose the locker room because 9 young players are in platoons and several guys just check out, than force feeding Fox and Heild more reps too soon.

    The Kings don't have a young core. They just don't They are young. They have not identified a core. Your core is your three best players, who are decent bets to become an all-star or damn near close. Fox is one. Whoever they draft in 2018 better be the second. Maybe Bodgan or somebody on this roster could develop themselves into a near All-Star and the team could be set if Fox and 2018 player TBD are totally awesome.

    Because, the Kings don't have a 2019 draft pick, they can't screw around with the 2018 win total. You just can't. You've all talked yourselves into the: who knows the draft is a crap shoot, no guarantees, ect stuff over a decade. Fine. Except, your odds of where you pick is straight math. And how high you pick, impacts your odds of getting a franchise player (that's why the teams tank / want to move up in the draft). Odds favor, the only path out of hell for Kings fans before 2020 is picking fairly high, nailing the hell out of that pick, and quickly becoming respectable. You pick 6 or 7 this summer and hope to find and develop an all star ... see you at the 2020 lottery my friends.

    So regardless of the best way to develop them. If the team is jeopardizing the long term plan to not be horrible over a 15 year run, because you are worried about whether Skal (at this point, a project again) might nominally develop better if Z Bo and Hill play more. That is insane. You can't see the forest from the trees.

    This season should be about: 1. Lins; 2. developing the 2-3 best prospects the Kings have at all costs; developing the other young kids as much as possible.
  14. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I think the dispute is what is the best way to do this? Turn them loose or force them into a system that may require adjustment.

    If the idea is playoffs in 2-3 seasons, I really think you need to force them into a system, so when you need it, it's there. Then hopefully they also get used to the rest of the NBA game enough that when they are ready to be turned loose they play both ways. The danger is never having a system in place when you need it, or constantly changing that system so that you never have one ever. I think Joerger has shown he can do it in a market comparable to Sacramento and if we played to Memphis levels the fan base would be happy. So I'm willing to give him the latitude.
    dude12 likes this.
  15. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    I'll do you one better. Demarcus Cousins. Jettisoned off because of Vivek's latest basketball crush in Buddy Hield. That's the way the industry he works in does things and he's applied it to the NBA.

    God, can you imagine if we had our own beloved franchise hall of famer like a Duncan or a Dirk with him as the owner? I know that's not the direction the Kings have had in regards to the players that have come through here, but imagine that.
  16. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    The problem with this theory is that it is incorrect. All reports claim Vlade had wanted to trade Cousins for some time, but Vivek kept saying no. After Cousins blew up at a fan after a game at GS Vlade finally got the go ahead. And even Vlade felt he better get a deal done before Vivek changed his mind. From everything I have heard, Hield had nothing to do with it.
  17. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Vivek demanded either Buddy or Ingram in a Cuz trade.
  18. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    Well, that's worse. Way worse, but I already knew about all the reports.

    Vivek was in Cousin's corner for the longest time, but eventually his fixation with Buddy Hield and Golden State outweighed that. Hield was the sweetener that truly got Vivek to sign off on the deal, to the point where Vlade had to go with that one over a reported better one.
  19. allrightythen

    allrightythen Well-Known Member

    I'm not really one to criticize much, but I have no idea why Justin Jackson is in the G-League right now. I thought he was getting progressively better and played a position of need for us. I love what VC brings to the team but I'm not sure I need to see it on the court every game.

    I'm somewhat surprised by how bad Hill has been, while at the same time really excited by what Mason and Fox have shown. Fox has a lot to learn but he has tons of talent. I am hoping Hill turns it around fairly soon and shows something to get his trade value up to a reasonable level so we can get something for him and let Fox and Mason do their thing. I really don't even think we need another guy as I'm confident that Bogdan can take some PG duties in a pinch.

    As for the bigs I'm just waiting for Giles to get back and Skal to find some confidence we can get a look at all of our young guys out there together.
  20. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    I don't think that sending Justin to the G-League was meant as a demotion. When we had to shift Hill to starting SG it shifted the minutes crunch that we had at PG elsewhere. Justin looked dejected coming in for garbage time after a couple DNP's and at least in Reno he can play, stay in rhythm etc. I imagine ( at least I am hoping ) we will see a move before the deadline. Not just to free up minutes for Justin, but one that has that as an additional benefit.
  21. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member


    Too many bodies needing minutes on the squad already and honestly, the more Hield and Bogdan the better. Bogdan is getting some of those minutes and I think he's proving he can be that need filler. He's better physically equipped to handle SF's than Jackson is right now anyway.

    I keep hearing how bad Hill is, but doesn't anyone notice the correlation in his decline in productivity with his role and minutes? Look at his career numbers. He was right there in almost every sense until a recent drop in minutes and attempts. What Hill did in Utah was good, but he has never been a star player, nor will he be. Give anyone 25 mpg and 7 shots and expect role player production because that's what you'll get. His shooting percentages are above the norm from 3 so he's performing better than expectations there. When you spread the minutes and shots around like this you will typically have your most talented players look much worse than they really are. At the same time role players can be lifted to an extent but that leads into the issue of facing a talent gap almost every night as a result.
  22. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    I don't think there's any doubt that as the season goes on we will see them a lot more. The big question here is how far is Joerger going to go. We saw a lot of the young guys last year post all-star break, but other teams were outright shameless in how far they went to tank, while we never really went all in. He seemed to do a 50/50 split of resting vets or not night to night, and in the games he didn't rest them he went all in with the vets as much as we're seeing now. It cost us draft status and Fox wouldn't be here right now if we hadn't gotten lucky.
  23. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    Those were the best prospects on the 2 teams we were talking to, so naturally we would want one of them in a trade. My point is that it wasn't some man crush on Buddy that got Vivek to do the trade.
    VF21 likes this.
  24. KingsSelecao

    KingsSelecao Active Member


    Actually, Mason has impressed as a rookie. Fox, not at all. He's currently the worst player in the league based on Plus-Minus

    Learning how to play point guard in the NBA is notoriously difficult. And though he's certainly shown some bright spots, it's been a learning experience, to say the least, for De'Aaron Fox, who ranks last among the 444 qualified players in Real Plus-Minus.
  25. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Gotcha.
    Telemachus likes this.
  26. allrightythen

    allrightythen Well-Known Member

    The biggest issue I have with Hill isn't necessarily his production, it's his passivity. His shooting percentages are right where you want them and his 3pt. percentage is at career high levels, but he just plays so passively. With the starting unit he needs to be aggressive and attack and he's just not doing it. Does 5 minutes a game in playing time really make a guy that passive?

    I can see the minutes crunch, I don't understand the sudden change. Justin was playing well and getting better and then all of a sudden he's benched and then the G-League. I thought we were giving minutes to guys who earned them and he seemed to have earned his. I'm not upset by it and I'm about to call for anyone's head, it's just a little perplexing.
  27. Gliesian

    Gliesian Well-Known Member

    Not the worst rook tho. Hes logged a ton of minutes on a team that would only have 1 win without Zbo. I just want him to shoot the 3 when hes open and if he misses so be it. Dont care if hes below 30% this season.
    King Baller likes this.
  28. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    See the article in the Kings News Link forum. :)
  29. Joshoua

    Joshoua Well-Known Member

    This last page of Cousins talk just made me sad and I wish he would’ve knocked Durant’s ***** ass out last night.
  30. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    Cousins too. I used Stauskas because he is the best example of no one on our team being safe from being shipped out. Vivek gushed about him before the draft. "He's like a hybrid of Steph and Klay." We draft him higher than he was projected to go. We have a freaking Sauce Castillo night. Like 2 games before he was traded Vivek was interviewed by Kayte Christensen and he said that he loved the floor spacing that we got with Stauskas. Then he ships him off as an incentive in a salary dump.

    Vivek's "basketball mind" is what truly frightens me about the future of this team.
    Sac.1989 likes this.

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