Rebuild Strategy

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by dude12, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Here's a thread to look at how other teams are rebuilding. Just reading a bunch of the comments in other threads and game threads, I wanted to compare the Kings playing time with other teams. My personal feelings are there are no absolutes when it comes to a rebuilding plan. Lots of differing strategies but the closest thing to an absolute is that the younger guys probably need to be getting some time....somewhere between 12-20ish minutes depending on how they are doing with some players getting upwards of 28-30 minutes, again it depends on how they are handling the PT.

    The one comment I've seen on the forum is that no one else is rebuilding like we are by giving minutes to vets the way Joerger is.....so here is what I saw when looking at other teams. I've shown ages followed by minutes.

    Chicago- Holiday (28) 34min. Lopez(30) 29min. 13 guys averaging in double figures in minutes per game. Although some might say Holiday isn't that old, he's been a journeyman who is shooting at a horrific rate. Markkanen is getting 30 min per...probably their highest ceiling young guy, lots of low ceiling young guys although Lavine will be back soon

    Dallas- Mathews (31) 35min, Dirk (39) 24min, Barea (33) 22min, D Harris(34) 18min, Noel (23) 12min...only 2 guys under 23 including Smith Jr who is getting good run but Barea and Harris getting solid minutes and Dallas' best young guys are also guards. I put Noel here as I was surprised he's only getting 12 minutes per game........similar to Kings with vets getting PT but way different when factoring in the ages of the roster. Kings went way more young

    Atlanta- bellinell(31)26min, Illyasova(30) 20min, lots of 28 year old guys on the roster but the young core of Schroeder, Prince and John Collins is getting good run.....I think Schroeders 3rd year IIRC.

    PHX- Chandler(35) 25 min, surprised that Mike James is already 27 as is Monroe 27....thought Monroe was older. I believe we will be similar to Phx in 1 or more likely 2 years in that our young guys will finally be up to more minutes. Chriss and Bender, 2 of their youngest at 20 min per, are statistically bad and Phx who started rebuild before us has about the same record....fwiw

    Brooklyn- the hot mess that is the Nets is going in the right direction but its going to take years to recover from earlier deals. Carroll (31) 30min, T Booker (30) 22min, not terribly young but they do have DLo Russell

    Philly- we all know the process and whether you agree with it or not they do have 2 young franchise players in Embiid and Simmons. They are different this year as they are ready to win. The year before during the process, they were giving 22-28 min per game to Illyasova, G Henderson and Sergio Rodriguez.....the year before that, lots of 23-25 guys in a well documented tank.

    Kings- Hill(31) 26min, Temple(31) 25min, Zbo(36) 24min, Vince(41) 12min in only 13 games......13 guys averaging double figures in minutes with the remainder of the roster very young except for Koufos who surprisingly is only 28.

    Just looking at most rookies who are actually getting some run, most are getting the 20ish minutes give or take. There are some who are getting around 30 but usually not the norm.
  2. sactowndog

    sactowndog Active Member

    That’s a great analysis and thanks. My criticism was specifically for the Chicago game. I do think you need around 25 minutes each for the vets to point out items during the game.
  3. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    It's not just about the averages, it's consistency and some of those teams are just starting their rebuild, the Kings have essentially not only kicked theirs into fast forward but they were also already a lotto team. Not all things are equal and the Kings are tanking the value of the main prize they got for their franchise player not to mention not exactly utilizing the talents of their most prolific young talent properly.

    The Lakers appear to have figured it out as well. After a year or two of doing the same things the Kings are currently they are really committed to their highest level young talent and it's paying off for them. Utah hasn't stashed Mitchell and he's gaining traction. Teams that don't have nearly the abundance of high lottery/value young players are well beyond the Kings at the moment. Bad place to be. It's like they are trying to manufacture their own Spurs scenario where they can have their cake and eat it to. Ain't gonna happen.
    206Fan likes this.
  4. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    there are players getting minutes with purpose and then you have players getting minutes to be bystanders
  5. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    How is it "paying off?" Do you think they are going deep in the Playoffs?
    John Galt and VF21 like this.
  6. Jimbob

    Jimbob Well-Known Member

    Speaking of Mitchell, 41 points yesterday in a come from behind win against NO. I'm aware Davis went down, still.
    I dont believe rebuild stratigies should have included trading our #10 for later picks especially when one has had two major knee surgeries., still I cant wait for January so that hopefully I can be proven wrong about Giles.
    Mitchell might have seemed redundant with all our guards, and I'm not unhappy about drafting Fox at 5, but in a rebuild I recon you go talent over position need and seeing # 15 and 20 getting no playing time while Mitchell is tearing it up is bad for my mojo.
    The Kings continual trend of sleeping on the BPA hurts.
  7. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    It's paying off because they seem to be headed upward. Their young guys are starting to put together real solid complete games and they are competing really well against some of the best teams in the NBA. Kuzma, Ingram, Randle, Clarkson and even Ball have all had monster games at some point this year.

    We aren't even sure if any of our young guys are even starting caliber players at the moment. It's a long process but it's worrisome that no one has stepped up and placed themselves ahead of anyone else at this point.
    Folsomkingsfan and SacTownKid like this.
  8. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member


    The concept of a rebuilding team is fairly easy. Rebuilding starts at the micro level with individual accomplishment. In time hopefully that individual accomplishment either leads you to other avenues in building your team into a winner, or the young players you have eventually grow into a winner. It's always a balancing act. The Kings have proven over time that they know how to fail at the extremes of both ends. How to not sell high on youth you can't possibly fit into your plans and how to destroy the value and promise of more than a few draft picks through improper usage.
  9. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    The Kings beat the Lakers just a few days ago so I'm not sure where all this hugging of the "Lakers System" comes from. Randle and Clarkson are in their 4th season so I'm not sure this is even a valid comparison. Outside of Kuzma all the young Laker players have had their own struggles.

    Fox, Bogie, Mason, Buddy and Willie have all shown they belong in the NBA, roles yet to be defined but at least 3 most likely will be starters with the others having bench roles. Malachi, Jackson and Papa are developing and Giles is waiting in the wings to show what he can do.

    Can you honestly tell me none of the Kings players has done anything to impress you enough that they belong in the Association? Remember these are all rookies and second year players outside of Willie. The players that were here last year were in the shadow of Big Cuz until the trade. And make no mistake that was a big shadow.
    lwc, Suicide King, VF21 and 3 others like this.
  10. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    I know it is easy to lump all the failure since the Adelman years into one big ball of unhappy. But a logical evalulation must start with Vlade and Joerger's hiring. I like what I have seen from both and don't take the negative view.

    Heck even Jakkar impressed me last night with his defensive intensity. I hope we get to see Jack Cooley soon cause he brings the same workman like lunchbox toting grind it out style. Guys like Jakkar and Cooley can come off the bench and show some intensity and HUNGER. Jakkar did just that last night. He got in the Bucks face and played some tough defense when it was really needed.

    Fans on here have been complaining about ZBo playing and calling him disparaging names when he has been the only consistent scorer. ZBo schooled the young Bucks last night and some don't even like that or care to recognize it. ZBo has been playing great!

    Joerger's move to bench the starting 5 and show enough emotion to get the T last night was the calculated move of a very good Coach. It worked as the Kings almost pulled out a win against one of the very best young teams in the Association.
  11. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Was going to respond to the Lakers being brought up. Ball is getting huge minutes but is having an epically bad shooting season. Still may turn out ok though as time will tell. The other youngsters being Zubac and Kuzma among others. Zubac is on the Papa G timeline right now, has barely played while Lopez gets around 23 min. Giving credit where credit is due, even if its the Lakers, they hit pay dirt with Kuzma it appears. Lakers have been in a rebuild process longer than the Kings, much longer. Kings don't even have a full year in of rebuild as it began at the all-star break last year and the Lakers and Kings both have somewhat similar records of sub .500 records
    King Baller likes this.
  12. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    At some point the young kids will be able to take over the scoring load on a daily basis but they can only do it occasionally. He has been helping keep us in games instead of getting blown out more often
    King Baller and parker like this.
  13. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    Hard for anyone to really make an impression thus far with joergers inexplicable lineups and minute distributions. Fox couldve delivered s much needed season defining performance yesterday as he finally showed some confidence in his shot but of course joerger gave him only 20 minutes. Unless he actually gives someone some serious run time it's doubtful anyone emerges from the pack this year.
    ESP47 likes this.
  14. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Fox had a good run in the second half and then Mason came in and did the same thing with that group that almost completed the comeback. Fox 21 minutes, Mason 23 minutes....both productive in the second half. Mason's lineup almost completed the comeback. I mean, Joerger's developing both PGs and both are getting run....hard to do.
    Hield played 31 minutes last night as he was playing well on both sides of the ball.
  15. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Rookie PG avg minutes per game....I didnt put Simmons in here as he's a hybrid but he averages 35 and I didn't take the time to add 1 year vets

    Ball - 33
    Smith jr - 28
    Fox - 26
    Mike James - 22. Older rookie
    Ntilikina - 19. Only played 18 games
    Fultz - 19. Only played 4 games
    F Mason - 17. Only played 16 games
    Jawun Evans - 12. Only played 14 games
  16. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Why aren't the Lakers a valid comparison? Did Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, and Nance Jr fall off the earth? Ingram and Kuzma looked a lot better than any of our young guys do if we're being honest.

    Kings need a franchise player, not solid starters. That's the biggest difference between us and the rest of the rebuilding teams. Most of them already have guys who look like they can be stars. The Kings don't have anyone yet.
    CelticsFan and King Baller like this.
  17. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    Who looks like a franchise player on the Lakers? I like Kuzma, but he looks to be a solid starter to me. Ball hasn't proved much of anything IMO. Has to shoot a lot better. That leaves Ingram who has played well and might fit that bill, but was absolutely terrible last season. And he still hasn't shown me enough yet to make me think he will be a franchise player (but has at least created the conversation).
    King Baller likes this.
  18. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    The Kings also beat the Thunder, Warriors and 76ers but winning a game against a team doesn't mean you're better than them or have a brighter future. The Lakers have a +/- of -2.7 while the Kings are -10. The Lakers are a lot better than us at the moment and they're playing a ton of young guys. Lopez and Brewer are the only veterans getting minutes. Caldwell-Pope is only 24 and the rest of their guys are either real young or just about to enter their prime. Some of their guys might have been in the league for a couple years longer than ours but they are the same age as Hield, WCS and Bogdan. So to me with all that, they have us beat on the rebuild at the moment because they are basically the same age, but better and more experienced at this point in time.

    I never said that none of the Kings belong in the league, I just said we can't even be sure if any one of them can be legitimate starters so far. It's early for the rookies but we have no idea if anyone in last years draft consisting of Papa, Skal or Malachi can make it in this league. Bogie looks promising, but will he be a real starter or a solid backup? Fox hasn't shown much other than a play here or there. I expected him to at least have a handful of games like he had against the Spurs in preseason where he got to the basket at will but I blame part of that on Joerger. Mason has shown to be a very capable backup but we have no idea how good he can be.

    Either way I'm not seeing a bright future at the moment. I'm seeing a future with a ton of question marks. We obviously have to be patient but so far we don't have any rookie Tyreke's or Cousins' showing real talent on a game to game basis. I don't expect crazy results from these guys but I'd like the "flashes" that we see to be complete games and not just 2 or 3 decent moves in a game.
  19. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    One thing that other teams have done that we haven't is recognize who their young core is. We have ten or eleven young guys on the roster; they were never all going to play 30 minutes a game; that's just not possible. There's usually a pecking order to these guys. It's why no one particularly cares if Jackson and Malachi were out of the rotation despite being young.

    Other teams have figured out their young core based on draft status, upside, performance or what have you.

    Chicago has Dunn, Markkanen and soon to be Lavine and are going to roll with them. No one particularly cares if Lopez is getting more minutes than say Felicio, but I bet they would if Markkanen was riding the pine. I don't know the style they're running, but based on Markkanen's stats I doubt it's anything that hindering him.

    The Hawks have Schroeder, Collins, and Prince.

    Logic would dictate that before the season the most important players on the Kings would be Fox, Skal, Hield, and WCS. Maybe throw Giles in there because of his upside. Of those guys, one's in the doghouse, one seems to be in and out of the doghouse with the most random minutes distribution and leash, and one is running with a system completely opposite to what suits him. The last is just getting into the right role and running a style that suits him.

    Now, Ingram is very interesting. If we're going by play alone then last year he definitely didn't deserve the playing time he got. But they recognized the upside and how important it was for their franchise to develop him, and they just rolled with him despite not being ready and probably being the rawest rookie last year. And it's now paying dividends for them. He's probably their best prospect.
    kingsfan1984 and Nokidding like this.
  20. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    This is supposed to be a rebuild from scratch. The biggest point you guys are all missing out on is the fact that the Kings have NO franchise player. The teams you brought up, most of them already did.

    Suns: Devin Booker
    Hawks: Dennis Schroeder
    Bulls: Zach LaVine (before anyone tries to say this is premature, it's not. He's been in the league for 3 years and has proved himself to be one of the best youngest players. In 47 games, he averages 18.9pts 3asts 3rebs on 45.9/38.7/83.6. He isn't just somebody that dunks)
    Nets: D'Angelo Russell
    Sixers: Embiid, Simmons, and Fultz??
    Mavs: ? only team on this list that is questionable. They have DSJ who's shown a ton of promise, but it's too early to put him here.

    Those team's rebuild revolve around finding lotto picks who fit around their star. The Kings' rebuild is just straight up trying to find a star. We are not in the same scenario as they are. If anything, we can be compared to the 2013/14 Sixers that only had Nerlens Noel. We all saw what they did, they tanked and played a lot of young guys. They went for a full-rebuild with no half-assing and giving nearly all the minutes to veterans. What was their end result? They got Joel Embiid, Dario Saric, Ben Simmons, and Markelle Fultz.

    The Kings need to follow in their suit. At the end of the day, our group of young guy are solid, but they aren't that good. I personally think we have a roster full of younger guys who can be role players and solid starters, but none that'll be stars.

    Fox 19/20: can become a good starting PG, but he needs a lot of work. He needs to desperately add a 3pt shot and more strength. He has impressed for a rookie, but he hasn't impressed as a franchise player. He's shown nothing for us to solidify our faith in him as a superstar.

    Buddy 23/24: can become a solid starter, but he's physically limited. He's an older player, but lacks athleticism on both ends. This limits his ceiling

    WCS 24: can become a good starting C, but the dude is just a can of inconsistencies. His motor and drive is questionable which makes him one of the scarier bets for the Kings if we want him long-term.

    Skal 21: can become a franchise player, but he's so far from that right now, that it's highly unrealistic. He's a complete boom or bust player who doesn't look like he knows how to play basketball sometimes. I can go into depth about this, but I won't. We all know by this point what I mean.

    Bogdanovic 25: yes he's a rookie, but he's already 25 yearsold. he should NOT be considered in the same light as Fox/Jackson/Mason when we're talking about their performance because this guy has played 5+ years overseas in a professional league. He is much closer to his ceiling than the other guys. He can turn into a solid starter, but he's not someone who will be a franchise player. This should NOT be taken as an insult towards Bogdan. Of the 1,000+ professional basketball players in the world, only 30-40 can actually be NBA stars.

    Jackson 22: he can become a solid role player if he gets stronger, but that's it. not much in his game to rave about aside form his great IQ.

    Mason 23: can become a 6th man, maybe average starter. He's older and already closer to his ceiling than Fox. Shows high IQ and good intensity, but is undersized for the position on both ends which hampers his ceiling even more.

    Giles 19: completely unknown because of his knees. Has a high ceiling, but his development has been severely hampered by missing out 2 years of crucial development in his youth.

    PapaG 20: solid player, but will not be a star.

    We need to find a star. I don't care to see what we have in Temple or Randolph. Give me the highest pick possible and start scavenging through our roster. The biggest misconception I've seen with the Kings is that just because we have a lot of young players, it means that all of them are good. All of them are on Fox's potential, but in reality, they're not. The guys who look good, are 3-4 years older than Fox.
    lwc, kingsfan1984, Gliesian and 3 others like this.
  21. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Active Member

    Fans have been complaining about Zbo because his signing was pointless and just a roadblock. If he plays well, he screws us. If he plays bad, he screws us because Joerger likes to design his system around him. If you're saying that we don't like or care to recognize it, it's because we don't. Guilty as charged.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  22. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Well to sum up my answer to all the above, it is too early to pass judgement on these young players. The only young "Franchise Player" I see out there is Giannis.
  23. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Well I could say all kinds of things. Bottom line......I disagree with you. How does it help to have the young players get crushed night in/night out? All the examples of other teams have been at their rebuilds one or two and sometimes 3 years longer.

    I just checked and the Kings are tied for 4th worst record. Just how many games and HOW BADLY must the Kings lose before you are a happy camper?
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  24. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    So how many of those teams make the Playoffs because of their "Franchise Players"? Outside of the Sixers I think the answer is ZERO. A "Franchise Player" should take his team to the Playoffs, right?
  25. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    I tend to agree. Franchise players are hard to come by. Even Giannis didn't start living up to that image until the 2nd half of last season. Embiid may be one but has to stay healthy. Simmons is showing all the signs but needs to improve his shooting (which I think he will).
  26. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I'm just going to say we saw what happened when we let the talent run the show. Reke regressed. Cuz took years to mature. IT wanted to run the show and not play a role - it looked like he was doing that in Boston at a near MVP level but the truth is he was the big cog in their well oiled machine.

    Yes we are playing vets and our hopefully future stars aren't getting to shine in the way that is most comfortable. That's what college used to be for. That's why a guy like Mason can come in and look good right off the bat. It's why only a handful of programs have the luxury of playing guys outside their comfort level and those guys go on to surprise at the NBA level while can't miss guys that ran their entire squad sometimes take longer to adapt.

    I think we all know what's at stake here. We have no 2019 pick and there are some good prospects for us in the top 5 next season. Can't we just ride this out?
    lwc, Warhawk, VF21 and 2 others like this.
  27. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    But they're giving him the full leash to struggle and figure things out up here. They're doing the same thing with Kuzma and Ingram as well. And they should be with Randle, but the Lakers are going to be dumb and let an awesome player walk or trade him (something we should be on btw).

    With the Lakers, they win/lose based on the backs of their young guys and the guys they want in their future. Walton has them on a really nice rotation too where they know what their role is going to be night in and night out. KCP/Kuzma/Ball/Ingram all play 30+ MPG. Randle/Clarkson/Brook/Nance get between 22-28, depending on who's playing well or not.

    That's what most of us are complaining about. Unleash the young guys and let us win games based on how they play. Turn the offense over to Fox/Bogdan/WCS/Skal/Buddy rather than continue to give massive minutes/role to ZBO/Hill . I mean, it's gotten ridiculous that we have 11 guys averaging between 26.1 MPG and 17.1 MPG. It's needs to be trimmed down.

    For me, I'd distribute something like:

    Starters:
    Fox/Bogdan/Temple/Skal/WCS

    Bench:
    Mason/Buddy/Koufos, flex in JJ/Vince/Sampson



    Essentially, I'd be content to just let Hill and ZBO watch and wait to get traded by Dec. 15. They don't add really much of anything to what we want our youth to turn into and they're keeping the guys we want to see in control of the offense from getting that chance.
  28. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member


    I like some of what I've seen from both as well. Right now, this team is not headed in the right direction from a coaching standpoint in terms of in game management in my opinion. It could be a part of a bigger plan, I don't know, I hope it is.
    King Baller likes this.
  29. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Ball does have a full leash, why is that deemed a more successful plan for the kid going forward? Not saying that its not a successful tactic either, I'm just saying there are different ways of developing players. Each coach has his preferences. One coach, Walton, is relatively short on experience when developing guys. The other coach has more experience working his way through the D League. I'm just saying there are multiple ways to bring young guys along. And the Lakers are further along in their rebuild or attempt to rebuild. Tell me why they aren't giving Zubac any run?
    Suicide King and King Baller like this.
  30. JCTNKINGFAN

    JCTNKINGFAN Active Member

    I know some people want to just throw the young guys out there at let them have at it no matter what. But I think this is a mistake for 3 reasons. (1) If they are not playing the right way, not taking instruction to heart, they should not be rewarded. (2) If they just aren’t executing, are being overwhelmed, it’s not good to destroy their confidence. (3) If they are messing up the development of the others, they should not be on the floor. Everybody is out there to learn, but if you have someone messing everything up, it makes it difficult to learn anything.
    lwc, Iced Espresso, VF21 and 4 others like this.

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