Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by dude12, Dec 2, 2017.


How would you like the rebuild handled?

Poll closed Tuesday at 12:21 AM.
  1. Wouldn't change a thing. Joeger and Vlade doing it right.

    22 vote(s)
  2. Only youth plays no vets

    10 vote(s)
  3. Somewhere in the middle

    10 vote(s)
  1. kingjatt

    kingjatt Well-Known Member

    Complete and total agreement, whats so great about ZBO and Hil beating a Booker-less Suns team? This Franchise is lost, bipolar, directionless and cannot commit to a long term strategy. Is everyone in that building just worried about appeasing Vivek on a day to day basis? This year reeks of the PDA era. No Plan at all and everyone on egg shells.

    That playoff promise by Vlade was the first sign of disaster for me, no way could we make the playoffs less than 2.5 seasons after trading Demarcus, that was a huge sign of incompetence right there. Vlade put himself on the clock with that dumb statement and if this continues he won't be able to deliver. I wonder if that was something he promised Vivek as well when he asked to trade DMC. Even the most optimistic of fans could see that there was not enough talent on the roster to even think about the playoffs for a while. Yet Vlade might have thought so?? Yikes.

    I really would not doubt that these guys thought ZBO/Hill Production minus DMC's complaining would equal playoffs this year. SMH Grant Napear syndrome.

    So ZBO leads us to a few extra wins this year, we get the 6-7-8 pick again and miss out on the cornerstones AGAIN. I know everyone is tired of losing for the last 12 years but this is not the correct way to be approaching this year. Absolutely zero excitement unless a young guy like Bogie, Frank etc FORCES there way into playing time.

    Even when a young guy makes a play for himself it feels like it is despite Joergers system, not because of it.

    Let these guys run out there and make mistakes so they can learn in a lost year, they made the NBA they have already EARNED the right to play on a team like this. They will be better off for years to come if you let them experience court time, you DO NOT learn more from just watching. If KD, Klay and Steph were in front of them then yes make them "EARN" it but why do they have to "EARN" playing time over freakin ZBO, Hill and Temple.

    All signs point to Vlade and Joerger being put on a short playoff clock by Vivek as a condition of the DMC trade, so ultimately this failure will fall on Vivek unless we succeed out of blind luck.
  2. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Different philosophies.....Joerger has come out and said why they play, just have to may not agree and it may not pan out but there is a direction. Joerger got the extension...makes me believe that he's not on a short leash but they understand finally its a 3 year process.
    jcassio, Warhawk, CVKingsfan and 2 others like this.
  3. macadocious

    macadocious Well-Known Member

    I've been a member of this forum for almost 13 years. I may have even been around before the crashed forum happened, but I cant remember. As of right now, I am pretty close to being done here. I get nothing from it because of the misanthropes who have insane expectations and have no idea what this season was supposed to be.

    • We are in re-build mode. We are not in tank for the #1 pick under any circumstance mode.
    • We will probably end up somewhere between 24-28 wins on there year. See 538:
    • Joerger consistently has 3-4 rookies, 2nd year players and our 3rd year player WCS with 1-2 veterans IN CRUNCH TIME!
    • The coaches are coaching individual games TO WIN. They always have and always will. With that being said, we still are going to lose a ton of games because we have 10 players on rookie contracts 7 of which are playing major minutes.
    • Z-B0, Hill, Carter and to a certain extent Temple are here to teach younger players how to men in this league, how to play, how to win and how to handle failures and successes. So far, it seems like they are doing an amazing job at it.
    • For those complaining about the offense, try listening to and reading what reporters are saying instead of your own interpretations. James Ham said 3 days ago that Joerger is running the simplest offense he can and the young guys are still confused. Vets want a more robust offense but he just can't implement it right now. That is BECAUSE we have 10 players on rookie contracts. Most teams, even in a major rebuild, have 2-4 players like that. So even if the veterans they have suck, they are veterans who know how to run and offense and play team D. They just might not be good players.
    • Joerger said this is at minimum an 18 month process. He doesn't expect to see results until the middle of the 2018/19 season.
    • Joerger also said he was going to play 10 players all 20-25 minutes a game. (guess what, he's pretty much done that)
    • The Kings are using the G-League as well or better than any team in the league right now. The NBA has never had a true minor league system until this past decade and even now it's really just coming to fruition. There is no blue print for what they are doing. It's not like MLB where guys are moved up slowly and may not see the league for 3-4 years after being drafted. I think what they are doing is genius btw. The other team that does what they are doing, the Spurs. I think they've done a decent job developing draft picks the past 5 years.
    • We still have Harry Giles! He could be a Unicorn, he could be a bust.
    • We will have a top 6 pick in the upcoming draft. Hopefully a top 3. With correct scouting it should get us a starting caliber front court player OR Donic.
    Right now we have a few people clamoring for not playing any veterans and losing on purpose. We also have a few people on the other side upset that the veterans aren't playing more and battling for the 8 seed. I really don't care what the speculation about what Hill may or may not have been told was.

    Watch this interview. This was taped right before training camp. Guess what, almost every single part of what he said has and is happening. It's almost prophetic in nature.

    That was the one I was able to find, but he and the FO had been saying this since summer league. I'm not advocating banning anyone from the board or anything like that, but I already find myself on here less and less and unless something changes to where the discussion goes back to a combination of X's and O's and things we would like to see or speculation of things to come, in a positive manner; I'm probably just going not going to bother logging on.
    John Galt, jcassio, Warhawk and 12 others like this.
  4. Sactown ExPat

    Sactown ExPat Member

    It must be true...Woj follows him on Twitter.
    dude12 likes this.
  5. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

  6. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Right there is what I don't understand. Why does it bother some of you so much that some of us enjoy a win? It's not like our enjoyment is going to change the future of the franchise. More enjoyable than seeing the big picture and seeing nothing but more ineptitude? Well, yes. It's almost more enjoyable than root canals or kidney stones, both of which you may get at some point and deal with when they happen.

    And no, once again, you're not viewed as trolls when you bring reasons for your POV. If you were, you'd all be gone, wouldn't you?

    Sunshine crowd? I'll be part of that and enjoy each moment as it comes. I know it drives some of you absolutely nuts but it's a two-way street. There is room for both of us, as long as we respect each other's right to differing opinions.

    It's a tough time (but a good time :) ) to be a Kings fan right now. We're in transition. Our team is rebuilding. Whether you agree with the philosophy of how it's being done or not that's what we're all stuck with.

    At least we still have a team to fight about. If we had lost the Kings, and were talking about an expansion team would you still be as critical? The entire team has changed, along with virtually everyone who works for them with the notable exception of the broadcast crews and Pete Youngman. What I see is a step in the right direction after years of neglect by the previous ownership group. We may not be doing a rebuild in the same way as others teams, but we are rebuilding. I guess I just don't see it as having to be as cut and dried as you and some others seem to think. Which again, is fine. All I personally would like is a brief moment to enjoy a win without being constantly reminded that we're doing it wrong. I honestly don't think that's too much to ask.
    CVKingsfan and King Baller like this.
  7. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    Are you kidding me?
    You'd like this place to just be x's and o's, and only posted in a positive manner? What kind of fan forum is that? Have you been to any other site for any other sports team? This place is as tame as my daughters kitty cat!!! CMON!!!!!!
    I really think that the majority of this place wants there to be strict rules on who posts and where. You? Your a miserable complaining POS so your not allowed in this thread because well, we like to discuss the team only in a happy happy joy joy demeanor. You can stay in your miserable you hate the team thread and discuss things with all the other trolls and haters. JHC...........

    Some of the greatest fan forums in the sporting world are free flowing and they are not positive. The Kansas City Cheifs fan forum has got to be the greatest and most entertaining one I've ever come across. And they certainly aren't banning ANYONE for not posting in a positive manner. Unbelievable.
    KingsFanGER likes this.
  8. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    First, I'm pretty sure you were around before the great board crash of September 2004. Weren't you part of the Peja/Webber discussions?

    Second, please do not leave. We need strong voices on both sides of the coin to keep things interesting.
    jcassio, CVKingsfan and King Baller like this.
  9. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Just not true at so many levels. NO ONE has been banned for not posting in a positive manner. NO ONE.

    This is ridiculous. This board has been around in pretty much the same form for close to 20 years while others have faded away, partially because the members - even while disagreeing - managed to treat each other with respect. If not, that's when we mods stepped in.
    Telemachus likes this.
  10. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    Just saying, I'm seeing a direction a majority of the board seems to want to go in. If one doesn't like the stance that one is taking on the team and voices it too many times they are a troll or a hater.

    however I will agree with you that the game day thread is probably not the place to argue about the direction of the team.
    KingsFanGER and CelticsFan like this.
  11. sactowndog

    sactowndog Active Member

    My suggestion would be to stay out of the rebuild strategy thread.

    In all fairness, we should keep the debate about alignment with the strategy here. Those who choose to celebrate the win over Phoenix are free to do so unencumbered by negative thoughts in the post game thread.

    As to your last point above, the reason people are concerned is it simply isn’t true. If the season were to end today we would mathematically most likely pick 7th. Doncic, Porter, Ayton or any of the front line players will be gone. Given what we have seen so far from Skal and Jackson it is a concern.
    VF21 likes this.
  12. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    We haven't even gotten half way through the season. Just because Joerger is playing Zach and Hill a lot now doesn't mean he's going to be playing them a lot in February.
  13. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I couldn't agree more! Anyone that didn't know what the teams agenda was, simply wasn't paying attention. It was discussed extensively on this very forum. So, either some on this forum are Johnny come latelys, or they have an agenda and don't care about the facts. Frankly I'm tired of these kind of discussions, where we portend to know what's in the mind of a player, a coach, or a GM. We don't, and therefore, all we have to go on is what those people tell us. If you choose to not believe Vlade, or Joerger, then so be it. I have no reason not to. Vlade clearly stated that he had a three year plan and that if the team wasn't competitive after the 2018/19 season, when the rookies will have had two years under their belt, and the Kings will have over 60 mil in capspace that offseason, he would step down.

    From that statement, it's obvious to me that he thinks the team will be a playoff team in the 2019/20 season. Fox will be starting his third year in the league and should be resembling the player they hoped he would develop into. That's not to say that the team couldn't make the playoffs sooner. If so, then so much the better. I personally don't have a problem with how Joerger is handling the situation. Could I nit pic why this player or that player didn't get more minutes, or back into the game after playing well in the first half? Sure, but he has a very tough job, highlighted by the current Hill controversy. He's trying to keep the veterans happy, and still give the young players important minutes. It's not so much about how many minutes a player is getting, it's about when their getting those minutes, and how they might rise to the occasion. Three or four minutes at the end of a game, with the game on the line, might be more important than 20 minutes in the first three quarters of a game.

    Joerger is trying to develop the young players by picking and choosing when they play, not how much they play. He wants them to learn how to deal with the crucial moments of the game, and come away with confidence from that experience. He also try's to reward a player by letting him finish what he may have had a hand in starting. That may mean that a player like Fox ends up sitting on the bench at the end of a game while Mason finishes the game. It's not to punish Fox, or in any way denigrate his play, but to reward Mason for a job well done. It's a fine line that Joerger is walking, and there's no perfect way to do it and please everyone. If you don't like Joerger, then nothing he does is going to make you happy. But he's in a tough situation, and I think he's doing a damm good job so far.

    Here's the question I would ask. Is the team playing better right now than on the opening day of the season? Has there been improvement? I would say yes. I see moments where they actually look like a fairly well oiled machine. Good ball movement and good open shots. More so on the offensive side than the defensive side, but that doesn't shock me. If the team could play offensively and defensively for an entire game like they played for the last three minutes of the Sun's game we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Point is, you can see moments of progress. I think it's also important to remember that the rookies have almost played an entire college season right now, and they're only about a third of the way through the NBA season. It'll catch up to all of them at some point and result in some poor performances. Just part of the process folks.
    Čarolija, John Galt, ppine and 8 others like this.
  14. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I personally endorse that suggestion. :) It's actually very similar to how the Personnel Moves forum was originally created.
  15. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    I was surprised to hear Carmichael Dave say this morning that he thinks it might be beneficial to Fox to send him to the G league to build up his confidence. I don't know about that. Fox knows that he was brought here as the top draft pick by both the franchise and the fans. Now he's seen F. Mason essentially out play him and if he were to be sent to the G league? I don't see that as a plus at all.
  16. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Thank you. I admit I should probably stay out of the Rebuild Strategy thread (except for mod duties). Letting you guys have your space to gripe is just as valid as me and the Sunshine Gang wanting to have a space in which to celebrate.

    CVKingsfan likes this.
  17. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I think part of it might be because Mason is older with more experience and Fox just doesn't have the requisite platform to build on. Maybe the D-League (I refuse to acknowledge Gatorade) would help him as a transitional step. I think he could learn a lot very quickly and return to the parent club a lot wiser.

    I truly believe there could come a time when BOTH Fox and Mason are on the court at the same time, complementing each other's games.
  18. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    If the Kings don't get a top 5 pick, I'm checking out as a fan. The entire NBA world doesn't know if the Kings are trying to win with the veterans or rebuild with the young guys. Calling the media stupid and misinformed reminds me of the time where the media said Sacramento was the most dysfunctional organization that had no clue what it was doing. Kings fans denied and scoffed at this. The media said Cousins and Karl had a real rift going on. Kings fans denied and scoffed at this. The media said Vlade was an idiot to mortgage the future to get rid of cap space. Kings fans denied and scoffed at this.

    Take off them purple tinted glasses. This FO deserves no loyalty from fans. The last time they fielded a competitive team in Sacramento was 2007. The last time they fielded a championship team was in 2002. Folks, it's been almost 16 years now.

    If we don't get a top 5 pick, I'm out. I'm ****ing tired of picking between Jimmer Fredette, Thomas Robinson, Ben McLemore, and Nik Stauskas every year instead of Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, KAT, and Ben Simmons.
    KingsFanGER, Joshoua and CelticsFan like this.
  19. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I mean no offense whatsoever, but every fan has his/her own level of dedication and line in the sand. If people want to continue to support the Kings and you don't, that's fine.

    THIS front office is not responsible for what happened in all the years between 2002 and the moment when we finally were able to exhale because the Maloofs were gone.

    If you check out, I'm sure everyone will wish you well. And we'll also welcome you back if you change your mind.
    CVKingsfan likes this.
  20. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    It is a very tough job he has. I'm with you, we can all nitpick in a variety of ways, but overall I think he's doing a great job. I think Fox is a tad tired, probably more mentally than physically. Frankly, I don't know how these 19 year olds do it. When I was 19 there was no way I could handle the mental stresses of being an NBA player, much less run the team as the point guard. I did notice that Jackson was three of fourteen from the field last night. Fox isn't the only rookie going through growing pains.
    Warhawk and CVKingsfan like this.
  21. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Okay, guys. Play nice. I'm out...unless somebody does something that requires mod intervention.
    fansinceday1 likes this.
  22. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    Its always been like that.
    Theres always a few fans who call out what they are seeing but the majority will always give the club the benefit of the doubt. Why? I don't know either. Its not like we are questioning a spurs or celtics front office. This IS one of the most inept FO's in sports. Until they prove otherwise.

    Maybe it says a lot about sacramento and the type of people who live here. Overall we are a very friendly non confrontational bunch. If this same thing were happening back east, it would be a whole different story. Take Philly as an example. When they were tanking, even after the GM told them exactly what he was going to do, philly fans wanted to burn that place down. I also think it has to do with almost losing our team. I think fans of the kings will always give this FO the benefit of the doubt.
  23. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Fox has been really disappointing, but I feel like it might have something to do with our starting lineup and Joerger's gameplan. Bogdanovic was a starter in the beginning of the season. He looked pretty bad and did nothing except wait at the 3pt line. Buddy was also a starter. He had more ball-handling duties but played poorly. Buddy gets moved to the bench and has instantly started playing some of his best basketball. Bogdanovic gets moved to the bench and starts looking like that guy from Serbia. On the other hand, Fox plays great off the bench...then he gets put into the starting lineup and instantly regresses and starts to play poorly.
    One possible explanation for this is that because when they're off the bench, they're playing against bench players. The competition isn't as good as the starters.

    Right now, Fox needs to build up his confidence again.I never thought being timid would be part of his learning curve because he looked like #1 leader at Kentucky. Maybe the Kings should put him in with the 2nd lineup instead. I'm not going to say he's too good for the GLeague, but there is no freaking way your 5th overall pick should be playing in the GLeague. That would be extremely unacceptable.
  24. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Well-Known Member

    We are going to pick 10th or 11th; you can bank on it. We should honestly be rooting for losses now above all else, creating a buffer for draft position now because of what will probably happen later down the line. Remember last year? Everyone tanked but we never went all in and it cost us draft status. I expect the teams with a worse record now to separate as the season ends and for Charlotte, Orlando, and LA to leapfrog us as they dedicate to tanking while we still try to grind out wins with vets half the time. It's what happened last year.

    I won't check out like you, but I won't even pay attention to the draft. If it's not between Porter, Ayton, Doncic, or Bagley then I don't care.

    I think we're on a track to becoming something like Orlando or at best Charlotte, mired in mediocrity. We can probably think twice about contending anytime soon. The fan favorite young players for this year seem to be Mason and Bogdanovic, but I don't know how anyone can look at what those two are doing and say we have a bright future. It's absurd, because those guys are a dime a dozen. They're nice to have for a rebuild but every last team in the league has at least a couple of them.

    They're treating this like it's the fourth year of a rebuild when it's the first. We should be trying to find out which individuals stick this year and next and getting high picks for it (but oh wait, 2019. Whoops...), as well as still acquiring young talent where we can. But that's not happening; just because Joerger trusts a couple of the older rookies who are already capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time doesn't mean jack. But Charlotte blew several high picks; we might not even be a position to do even that and we seem to think we've acquired enough young talent for some godforsaken reason.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
    Nokidding, 206Fan and fansinceday1 like this.
  25. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    I think were some of us pesimists are crossing the rest of the board is we are looking at this from a long term perspective. The others want wins. I understand. It feels a helluva lot better than constant losing but when these wins are hurting our long term prospects I personally just can't enjoy them. I know 2019 feels like a long way away to most here but I see it looming and when it hits and if we still don't have a 1st rounder and we still suck, it is gonna be extremely painful. I just can't enjoy meaningless wins when i know that it is gonna kill us come draft time.

    oh well, que sera sera.

    Im just glad to my core that the 49ers have caught lightning in a bottle. Hired a bad a$$ GM, coach, and pulled jimmy garappolo out of their rears. If it wasn't for them, id be in a horrible mood because not only are the kings going in the wrong direction, the oakland A's stadium deal blew up and it looks like my favorite baseball team might move. Geez..........
  26. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    Well all I have to say is goodbye. Sorry to see you go, but go enjoy another team. By the way, go look up the word loyalty while your at it. And, I think most fans on this forum knew there was dissent between Karl and Cousins. I think most fans knew that PDA was a backstabbing worm. I've been a fan of this team since the day they moved here from Kansas City, so spare me the old whoa is me crap. Your either a fan or you not, and if not, then don't let the door hit you in the rear on your way out. You want to stay and complain, fine! That's part of what this forum is for. But I have no use for quitters.

    If I were to quit this forum, it would be because of listening to everyone complain. I do get tired of it at times, but that comes from 50 plus years of listening to complainers. It's not personal. And, even if I left the forum, which I've thought about at times, I would still be a fan of this team. The plus for the forum of course is that no one would have to listen to my BS anymore. o_O

    PS: Personally, I hope you stick around. I love arguing with you. Keeps me honest...:rolleyes:
    CVKingsfan and upinsmoke like this.
  27. kingjatt

    kingjatt Well-Known Member

    Even as rookies these guys have egos, no way do you send your top 5 pick to the d-league unless he is Anthony Bennett level bad or you are in contention for a top seed and have valid reasons for not playing him. I think it would hurt his confidence and embarrass him more than anything.
  28. macadocious

    macadocious Well-Known Member

    I think your misinterpreting what I am saying here. There is a difference in having a constructive conversation about what you perceive as being right or wrong in regards to what the teams is doing and coming onto a forum basically yelling at clouds like Homer Simpsons father because you want yet another coach fired less than 2 years into his stint because we are either not winning enough OR not losing enough. Its mother forking tiring and downright obnoxious. It also doesn't lend to any actual conversation.

    I honestly don't even know what posters are doing the biching, because I just gloss over the posts. It just seems like they are now the majority, or that small group is posting the most. I like well thought out posts like we get from Baja, cap'n, even grumpy ass slim. You can be upset or not agree with the coach, player, FO, etc. But do so in a constructive matter where a discussion can be had.

    No more

  29. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    Is lie!

    Sorry couldn't resist.:D
  30. macadocious

    macadocious Well-Known Member

    Also, we are currently 6th and projected to be 3rd. We only have one more win than Dallas and Memphis and Phx has two more losses than us.

    Of those above us right now

    • Lakers - no reason to tank
    • Brooklyn - no reason to tank
    • Charlotte - Cannot see a Jordan ran team tanking
    • Clippers - No chance they tank with Doc as a coach
    • Magic - Maybe, put Vogel is trying to win

    Those at or below us.

    • Memphis - Not tanking, Coach was fired because they are not playing to expectations
    • Dallas - Front Office is tanking, coach is not. They are better than the Kings and unless FO shuts everyone down in February they will have a better record than us.
    • Suns - With Booker out, we are a better team. Sorta tanking?
    • Bulls - Tanking - They will have a worse record than us. They are terrible and we barely beat them.
    • Atlanta - Coach Bud is not tanking, they just dont have talent. We are probably a hair better than them.

    Post All Star break I expect Zbo and Hill to get some days off (if they are still on the team) and also play less minutes. Again, our winning percentage right now puts us at 27 wins. 538 projects 26.

    Attached Files:

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