Ranking the NBA's 7 most hopeless teams

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by VF21, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    And unfortunately Martin is a classic example of the fans overvaluing of the talent level and setting the ceiling so high that he is chased out of town as a disappointment. When Kmart or Special K (as he was referred to back then because there was another KMart in Denver), broke out as a 20PPG scorer, the fan base proclaimed franchise level talent, Kobe heir apparent etc. even when many of us saw an efficient scorer who needed the whole system catered towards him in order to be an effective player. Someone who couldn't create for himself or other, someone who was not a good defender and a SG that did not have the handles.

    Martin was one or many young players who were put on a pedestal by a fan base desperate for a face of the franchise without realizing that the kid is really #3 scorer on a contender level talent. I see similar hype surrounding Buddy and Skal and to a lesser extent Malachi and its just unfair on the kids because they are being set up to fail by their own franchise and the fan base.
    NewArena, Spike, Ron and 5 others like this.
  2. kingsfan101

    kingsfan101 Active Member

    I agree completely with your post. Despite this, I am coming around to the view that the trade was probably not a bad idea.

    Doesn't mean that the trade, or even the timing was good. We still got robbed. However, against my initial thoughts that trading DMC itself was a bad idea, I'm coming round to the view that perhaps it was time to move on.

    If we had kept DMC, we would have been perpetually in the hunt for the 8th seed for the next few years. We might have made it sometime, and missed the others. Over a 3 year period, we would have had a middling pick in 2018. Cousins would have taken around 40% of our cap. With just one pick, little or no cap space, a bad team, and a small market, our only hope of improvement would have been big strides by some of the kids. And who is to say DMC wouldn't have demanded a trade an year or so after getting paid? What contracts would we have needed to take back to get that salary matched?

    Now, despite the poor returns we got in the trade, we get Buddy, and three draft picks over the next two years, all expected to be high (perhaps NO pick this year might be in the range of our own pick next year prior to the trade). Plus we get tons of cap space, which, if we can use wisely, we can turn into additional assets.

    While the trade itself was bad, given our unique draft situation, we'll end up with slightly more than just what the trade gave us. Is the hope of a slightly better future, better than potentially making playoffs once or more over the next few years, and seeing one of the best bigs tear into the other teams? Tough call, but I've started leaning towards the hope the trade offers.
  3. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    I will say I was against trading Cousins but I could certainly see the arguments for trading him as well and it has nothing to do with his personality or with #CharacterMatters.

    Scenario 1: Keep Cousins
    In Cousins you know that you have a big man that you can build around. Someone who bends the defense and creates open looks for his team mates. You still have WCS who started playing well about 2-4 weeks before the trade. There was progress there so there was a useful player to look forward to that you could play with Cousins.

    You still had Malachi showing signs of being a good young SG prospect who fits well in the system. You still had Skal developing in the background and Papagiannis working on his craft.

    Whether or not Kings would have made the play offs or kept their pick no one really knows. Its all guesses at this stage. We know that Cousins was banged up due to the workload he carried with this team so chances are he would have missed some games. But for arguments sake let's assume that Kings would have just missed the play offs and conveyed the 1st round pick to Chicago. You still have Bogdanovic in the wings that you are planning to bring over to off-set the loss of a draft pick. You signed a couple of good solid veterans in Temple and Tolliver and a bit of a bust in Afflalo.

    Going into summer you had enough cap room to offer max deal to a player but also a bunch of expiring deals. By just missing out on the play offs you rebuilt your image around the league from a franchise that couldn't keep out of its way to a franchise that plays hard every time they get out on the court and on the verge of being a play off team. In the FA you go out and try and sign a difference maker. Can it be Jrue Holiday or Otto Porter or someone that comes in, addresses the position of need going forward. Or you could do what the Kings did last summer to add solid role players that filled a position of need.

    Now there are also trade possibilities out there. Let's not forget what someone like Isaiah Thomas was signed and/or traded for. There are bargains out there to be had and some players fit some systems better than others. Smart, thorough franchise can make those signings.

    So going into next season you still had kids that had a season and another off-season of development, in prime Cousins, maybe a difference maker FA or a couple of solid FAs, maybe a trade or maybe not. So with the move to get a number of young talented player via the 2016 draft, you have replenished your asset base. You can maybe start thinking about having the Cousins-WCS-Skal-Papagiannis-Tolliver front court going forward making Kosta a tradable asset. You would have your SG position solidified with steady veteran in Temple, experienced rookie in Bogdanovic who you could play straight away and a young developing Richardson. You might be able to even play all 3 some spot minutes at SF.

    All of a sudden, just by internal improvement of the young players you could have a better rotation than you did this season plus enough money to drop a max contract on someone. Sign a couple of veterans and its a team that would once again push for the play offs but a team that has enough young pieces to make it more of a long term thing than a one and done team.

    Is the approach perfect?! No because there are a number of uncertainties but you still have your big guy that you re-sign to a max deal once you have done all the signings and as long as you have that franchise level player on the books you are in a better position than if you didn't have one.

    Scenario 2: Trade Cousins
    I can certainly see the merit in going down this path but provided that it is done the right way and you get a god father haul coming your way. Kings have done neither. They traded their in prime franchise player for 50 cents of a dollar. They got Hield who could be a good player but with that shot he is guaranteed to play many years in the league on some role. They get a pick but it is top 3 protected and an early 2nd round pick. So essentially, the Kings traded their franchise for a couple of 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. That is more than a measly return. Sure you keep your pick that pick is not going to be early enough to give you a chance at a genuine A grade talent whether you chose to make the pick or trade it.

    Bottom line is Kings are picking mid lottery again, this time twice in one draft. That should get you a couple of very good young players but will you draft a franchise level guy? I am not even taking into the account the sins of past trades where Philly can swap with Kings this year and get the 2019 pick unprotected. That is a huge blow for a rebuilding team.

    Now I have no problem with rebuilding provided that it is done right. That means that the most important goal for the season is to develop players the right way and teach them the right habits. It means that you as a franchise must absolutely nail your picks. There is no room for failure. This approach allows you to accumulate players in similar age brackets so that if you are lucky to draft a franchise player or two, you already have majority of your roster or core rotation in place that is in similar age bracket, have played together for years and know each other's games well.

    Now the danger you have here is that you can get stuck in this perennial cycle of being a lottery teams by not having a clear vision and patience to stick to it, by not making the correct calls on draft nights and at the trade table and just generally in the every day operations of the franchise. If anything, this franchise has shown that they don't have neither. They don't have a clear vision or a plan and they certainly do not have the patience to see it though. In order to rebuild successfully you need to draft well, develop well, trade well and be patient. Rebuilding successfully is not easy. It requires luck, patience and know how. Now Kings could get lucky and get their franchise guy or guys this draft but there is no quick fix, no quick turn around. Rebuild generally takes 5 years and sometimes more. You need to be in for the long haul and then pull all the right moves along the way. At the moment the Kings are miles away from it and things are even more complicated by this debt of draft pick/s that is looking over the franchise.

    I would feel more confident and comfortable with this approach if the Kings were a stable franchise with clearly defined roles within the franchise and that are respected around the league and held in good regard. Unfortunately this franchise is known as the circus show of the NBA and rightly so. I have everything crossed that this changes but something tells me this is not changing as long as Vivek Ranadive has a say in basketball matters. He thinks he is smarter than everyone and by trying to outsmart others around the league, all he ends up doing is outsmarting himself and the franchise. He might be a smart tech savvy guy but he is not basketball smart.
    NewArena, Ron, Tyndel and 3 others like this.
  4. kingsfan101

    kingsfan101 Active Member


    Such a well written, logical post, summarizing things so neatly.

    The only quibble I have with this is that I have very little faith in our ability to get a top tier FA (max level guy). These kind of signings virtually never happen, and if they do, they are for storied franchises, or when players think they can potentially earn championships. We are among the bottom dwellers, but look at even the more famous ones. E.g., Dallas got Barnes as their major FA last year. Dirk may be nowhere near what DMC is at present, but they still have a highly respected coach who has won the championship, and a much respected owner. Sure, we can get lucky, but you don't plan around that.

    Regarding getting really lucky with a signing like IT, that's even more remote. IT was a good player when he was with us (of course, he got his fair share of hate :), but he has become an all-star and potential all-NBA guy now. Such Cinderella stories are extremely rare. For us to bank on them, is not a plan, but a prayer.

    I do agree that if the kids develop nicely, with DMC as the main big guy, Kosta becomes an asset who can get something. At the same time, teams fighting for a PO spot, don't typically trade their veterans. In fact, they might go the other way. Trade one or more of the kids, to get some immediate help, particularly if they want to keep DMC in good humor.

    The last spot in the WC will be a dogfight over the next few years . Tough to say, given trades, FAs, etc., not to mention injuries, but I don't see too many teams dropping from the top 7. The last spot will be contested by Portland, Denver, Pelicans, and Wolves for a while. Prior to the trade, we would have been in the mix. I don't think we had the players or the assets to either clearly separate ourselves from this pack, or even move up a bit. Keeping DMC would have kept us where we are for the next several years.

    All moot now. The saving grace is that Vlade has shown some skills with draft picks, and even FA signings. While we didn't get any high profile FAs (again, that's very rare), we did get some quality players, and we forged an identity. It's the trades, where he has made mistakes. Hopefully, with the cap space and picks, he can get a few good pieces.

    Finally, I'm not expecting any franchise level guys with our picks (perhaps next year, when we are likely to pick quite high). If we can get two solid guys, I'll be happy.
    VF21 and Tetsujin like this.
  5. lwc

    lwc Well-Known Member

    I think Joerger's ability to develop talent is underrated here. Skal and Papa look significantly better than 1 year ago. Ben has shown not just flashes but entire games of real talent. Willie finally looks more than serviceable. Buddy looks even better than he did as a Pelican in a short amount of time.

    Two top 10 draft picks in a strong draft and Bogdanovic ready to come over possibly. This team could finally be filled with talent. Maybe not championship talent but real NBA talent. I think that is what hurt me most as a Kings fan over the years. We started guys like Chuck Hayes 65 games per season and gave guys like Ryan Hollins 10 minutes per night. Don't get me started on the last few seasons of JT.

    I honestly believe that at the end of the 2017-2018 season the Kings will have at least 8-10 players that could make most NBA rosters. Sounds simple but we haven't been able to say that for a long time.
  6. PurpleHaze

    PurpleHaze Well-Known Member

  7. HndsmCelt

    HndsmCelt Well-Known Member

  8. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    You should read what he had to say about the Warriors -- you would think they walked on water. Steph Curry is a DPOY candidate! Klay Thompson had one 60 point game! OMG this team gets an A+! Is it just me or does it seem like sports journalism is dominated by front-runners and bandwagoners?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  9. HndsmCelt

    HndsmCelt Well-Known Member

    And then he gives Brooklyn a D- ... how can you do worse than having the worst record in the league when you could not keep your pick? Pure drivel.
  10. After what happened last night with the Knicks management (PJax is gonna run Porzingis out of New York), they are the most hopeless team in the NBA with Magic and Lakers (If they lose their pick) right now for me, Nets are close fourth yes they don't have their pick, but they have two late first round picks in this draft, and they at least have very good management and a great coach in Atkins.

    People just hating on us. We have a great future and we have two top 10 picks in this loaded draft, so I'm good, let them hate we are gonna laugh last.
  11. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    There's hope. Some teams like lets say the Jazz are spinning their tires in the mud trying to win-now in the face of a slaughter at the hands of the Warriors.

    The Kings are making the right moves, they're preparing to open a window down the line when the current powers will be aging.
    NewArena and kingsfan1984 like this.

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