Preseason Grades v. Blazers 10/20/2013

[Hadlowe]

Side note - How about Gerald Wallace and his massive deal, along with Humphries (big expiring) for Thornton, Hayes, and Salmons expiring. There is a deal to be made with Boston. They have almost 20 million dedicated to mediocre small forwards over the next 3 years with Wallace and Green.

Boston is loaded with 2s already between Avery Bradley, Marshon Brooks, Keith Bogans and Jordan Crawford. I doubt they would want anything to do with Thornton. They are thin at the five, but not the four, so a massively undersized center is probably not going to thrill them.

Wallace was an all-star 6 years ago and is still being paid as if he were an all-star right now. He seems to be aging in dog years though. Last year he posted a PER of 11. He isn't a terrible outside shooter, but neither is he particularly good at it. Of the many answers available at the three, he is near the bottom of my list.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Side note - How about Gerald Wallace and his massive deal, along with Humphries (big expiring) for Thornton, Hayes, and Salmons expiring. There is a deal to be made with Boston. They have almost 20 million dedicated to mediocre small forwards over the next 3 years with Wallace and Green.

I don't want any part of Gerald Wallace. I would take Green though!

 

[dude12]

Jeff Green is hardly mediocre.....Wallace is cooked physically.....then again compared to our guys....

 

[Gary]

I'd start GV and Ben in the backcourt....big a little bit better defensively than having MT with GV. Like the idea of Luc in there but without seeing them together yet, not so sure. Like PPat as a stretch 4 next to Cuz.

What I'd like to see off the bench with IT is Ray. I believe he's as big as MT and Jimmer and can play some defense and handle the ball. Not so sure about an IT and Jimmer backcourt off the bench as it would be fairly crappy defensively. I'd have MT out of the rotation as well as Salmons. Those 2 don't seem to fit.

I think Luc at SF would be a good fit with PP at PF. Thompson at PF on the other hand would be a better fit with Salmons or Outlaw at SF.

You're probably right about MT. It doesn't seem to look like he's fitting in, and his body language has shown that as well. At the game the other night when he was on the bench he seemed zoned out the majority of the time. He did have some laughs in there but not a lot.

So if we could find a team for MT, even if it was for a defensive big or a SG defender I would probably take it at this point. But I would still like to see him in the regular season a bit first.

 

[Fear the Putin]

Boston is loaded with 2s already between Avery Bradley, Marshon Brooks, Keith Bogans and Jordan Crawford. I doubt they would want anything to do with Thornton. They are thin at the five, but not the four, so a massively undersized center is probably not going to thrill them.

Wallace was an all-star 6 years ago and is still being paid as if he were an all-star right now. He seems to be aging in dog years though. Last year he posted a PER of 11. He isn't a terrible outside shooter, but neither is he particularly good at it. Of the many answers available at the three, he is near the bottom of my list.

that's because he's taken as much damage as an MMA fighter throughout the years.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Boston is loaded with 2s already between Avery Bradley, Marshon Brooks, Keith Bogans and Jordan Crawford. I doubt they would want anything to do with Thornton. They are thin at the five, but not the four, so a massively undersized center is probably not going to thrill them.

Wallace was an all-star 6 years ago and is still being paid as if he were an all-star right now. He seems to be aging in dog years though. Last year he posted a PER of 11. He isn't a terrible outside shooter, but neither is he particularly good at it. Of the many answers available at the three, he is near the bottom of my list.

Thornton is 10x the player Brooks, Bogans, and Crawford are. Bradley is their point guard until Rondo comes back. Bradley + Thornton isn't a bad combo (Defense + Offense) and they get to dump Wallace. By the way, Wallace has had a pretty spectacular pre season so far. I've watched almost every Celtics preseason game, live or by DVR seeing as how they are my local team. Wallace looks good right now. Best I've seen him in years.

It's not a prefect deal, or even a major deal, but it's one that makes both teams a little more balanced while exchanging poor contracts.

Quick note on Green - I'm not sure he is anything better than mediocre. He's not very efficient. Often had the 'deer in the headlights' look. Very frustrating player to watch, trust me!

 

[Bricklayer]

Quick note on Green - I'm not sure he is anything better than mediocre. He's not very efficient. Often had the 'deer in the headlights' look. Very frustrating player to watch, trust me!

Oh no, he had a big game in the playoffs. Suddenly he's an All Star, trust me. Many people have come to this conclusion.

He is, however, better than anyone we currently have. Then again if we could pry Brian Scalabrine out of retirement he probably would be too.

 

[Dank]

He wasn't an opton, but i'm thinking Chuck might be the best "starter" next to Cousins. Of the 3 guys vying for the job, he's easily been the best defensive player and he's been the most consistent on the boards. Also, a lot of his value lies with his post defense which,a lot of the time gets wasted on back-up bigs. I think putting him on the other teams best offensive post player can help keep Boogie out of early foul trouble and let him focus on getting off to a good start offensively.

In a sense, it's sort of the same logic OKC used with starting Thabo and having Harden+Martin come off the bench. Harden and Martin are obviously superior players, but it served OKC better to allow Thabo get 6-8 minutes of top-tier perimeter defense and let Westbrook+Durant find a rhythm early without having to involve another offensive minded player into the mix. Ppat and JT obviously aren't near the caliber of scorer/player as those guys but the idea is still similar. Let Chuck defend the Horford/Lee/Aldridge/Love type guys and get Boogie into an offensive rhythm early.

The thing to question would be, especially if Mbah starts, is if a GV-McLemore-Cousins for example, could score enough to carry those 2 guys?

Overall not a bad idea in a lot of aspects but todays NBA is full of stretch 4s, even we have one and neither DeMarcus or Chuck Hayes can guard them.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Brick, I can't help but feel you're holding the FO's decision to let Tyreke go against McLemore... I've seen you make a couple of subtle "digs" (digs is the wrong word because I'm sure there's no malice intended) about him. I was a big fan of Ben in college but I have to say I'm actually pleasantly surprised by what he's done so far in pre-season. He's shown confidence even when things aren't going his way, he's using his athleticism to get open and out on the break (and in the passing lanes), he's been a willing and very solid passer, and most of all he knows to get the ball in to big Cuz when he's on the court. He's actually shown to be a very good entry passer so far, which I've been surprised with. His basketball IQ seems to have caught up to the speed of the game pretty quick, and you can see that he generally tries to keep the ball off the floor. Is he a superstar? Definitely not. Does he have potential as a perfect role player next to Cuz? In my opinion, yes. Not as a legit number 2 option, but as a third. He's 20, he has a lot to learn and his type of game means there's going to be some ugly games in his first couple of years (shot not falling/TOs with handles) but you can clearly see the ability. Personally he might be a more valuable player to us already than Thornton, though I expect the latter to start on opening night. Thornton is better at creating for himself and probably at offensive rebounding, but McLemore already does everything else better. Pre-season and all, but encouraging so far.

That rant wasn't all aimed at you, more of a general rant about his game. Personally I don't see anything wrong with a rich mans Klay Thompson (not right now, in the future) from the number 7 pick in a pretty weak draft. I wouldn't go labelling him a mediocre talent (maybe that wasn't your intention, but it came across as sort of like that) just yet. Ben might not be able to be counted on to have a big night every night, but he's a young rook, that's expected. It's the rest of the roster that's a mess. We have 3 PFs on the same level talent wise, and JT seems to have regressed. No legit starter at SF, again with three talents in the same ball-park. There isn't a whole lot between Thornton and McLemore right now. GV should start at PG and Cuz is a given. We really need to ship out some of our redundant pieces for difference makers.


BTW, WTF was up with that Blazers feed? Whoever decided that every single made PTB basket should be replayed in slow motion over our offense should be fired. What a complete joke, amateur stuff. As if listening to their painfully biased commentators wasn't already enough punishment.

 

[swisshh]

The Blazers feed is the Jumbotron feed. Thus the goofy video editing.

I think the starting five willl be

Vasquez
Thornton
Outlaw
Patterson
Cousins

However, in a month or two that will probably change to

Vasquez
McLemore
MbahMoute
PPat
Cousins

Basically, you'll see the five start at the season's tip that have shown the most right now and who are ready. Ben and the Prince aren't ready to start yet due to rookie-itis and injuries. Eventually, they will as its one of the most balanced line-ups the team can have. Patterson to space for Boogie, MbahMoute for size and defense, and McLemore for speed and D that Thornton doesn't have.

I am surprised at how much Thronton has struggled to meld with the system. His main problem is that he has become a dribble to shoot guy. He lacks the off ball aggressiveness that I would expect from a guy who likes to score.

 

[Glenn]

After watching every preseason game we've played .. I can't figure out what is going on with Thornton. It's so strange.

He's never open. That's the difference between what he is doing and what McLemore is doing. If you give Thornton the type of shots McLemore is getting he'd score just as many points and he'd be just as efficient, if not more efficient. The question is WHY isn't Thornton getting open? are we not running anything for him? or is his effort just terrible right now? We are clearly running plays for Ben, he's moving without the ball and finding his spots .. why isn't Thornton doing this? CAN Thornton do this? I don't know.

And I'm a big Thornton fan, or I have been in the past. His play right now just doesn't make any sense.

Does anyone have an answer as to what has happened with Thornton? Two years ago we were raving about him, especially the ice cold blood in his veins in the last minutes of a close game. I haven't seen more than two games this year so can't offer any thoughts.

I thought McLemore was going to be a starter before summer league. I had watched a lot of videos of him in college and saw his strengths and deficits which are obvious going both ways. He has great positives and great negatives. We are finding that he can fit in just fine if we play to his strengths and do not ask him to do what he cannot do. If not, why all the excitement but that's a different story. I DO remember that Thornton plays better as a starter and perhaps he is in a long sulk. I find this answer to be low on my list but can't think of anything else unless he is just in a learning period and patience is warranted.

 

[ninjabiscuit]

I wouldn't call McLemore's pre season as a 20 year old rookie "mediocre", he has played great, especially tonight. I don't know whats wrong with Thornton and JT looks like he has regressed, at least offensively. Last year he looked much more composed on offense, this year he is back to looking like the Tazmanian Devil out there. Everyone else has played as expected.

Looks pretty good to me, at least on offense.

 

[Bricklayer]

Overall not a bad idea in a lot of aspects but todays NBA is full of stretch 4s, even we have one and neither DeMarcus or Chuck Hayes can guard them.

I hear this said a lot, but I think its one of those urban myths that just gets repeated around in circles and nobody ever stops to really analyze it.

Now depending on how far out form the hoop you have to go to be a stretch 4 -- i.e. LaMarcus Aldridge is a jumpshooting 4 but I don't think most people would consider him a stretch 4, this is what you get with every starting PF in the league:

PTL Aldridge (jumpshooter)
GSW Lee
LAC Griffin
LAL Pau
PHX Morris? Fyre? (stretch, but suck)
UTH Favors
DEN Fareid/Hickson
HOU Asik? if its Montejunas he's a stretch,but he has played poorly in preseason.
DAL Dirk (kind of exceeds stretch label now, but the prototype)
SAN Splitter
MEM Randolph
MIN Love (stretch+)
OKC Ibaka (jumpshooter, not really stretch yet)
NOH Davis (Anderson comes off bench)
CHI Boozer
CLE Thompson
DET Monroe
TOR Johnson
MIL Henson probably (Ilyasova is the stretch, but likely a bench player)
IND West (jumpshooter)
PHI who knows
NYK Melo/Bargs (stretch)
NJN Garnett (jumpshooter)
BOS Humphries/Sullinger/Bass -- Bass is a jumpshooter
WSH Nene, Serpahin etc.
CHA Zeller?
ATL Milsap
ORL a mess Big Baby (jumpshooter) when healthy
MIA Bosh (jumpshooter), unless Anderson/Oden don't work when it could be Bron again.


Which is to say that unless you are counting the jumpshooting PFs, there are actually very few stretch 4s who start, and most of the ones that do are at a similar level as Patterson -- borderline guys that you hardly start trembling over and adjusting your lineup to match. But this "stretch 4" "stretch 4" thing just gets repeated in rounds again and again via the media, to the fans, back to the media. There are a lot of stretch 4s and SF converts wandering around out there, but most of them are bench players. Coaches remain oddly attached to PFs that actually play like PFs for the most part as part of their starting structures.

 

[Glenn]

Dime Dropper, let me take a shot at answering for brick because I interpret his comments far different than you do. I think his references to Tyreke are shots at the fans who are happy to see him go and not related to Ben.

Be happy. Those who live in Sacramento can't see Kings' games legally until the season starts.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Dime Dropper, let me take a shot at answering for brick because I interpret his comments far different than you do. I think his references to Tyreke are shots at the fans who are happy to see him go and not related to Ben.

Be happy. Those who live in Sacramento can't see Kings' games legally until the season starts.

I didn't even see any references to Tyreke, if I had I'm absolutely certain that I would have agreed with him because our stances on Tyreke are identical. Especially with regards to those who were glad to see him go, but better not to open that can of worms. I'd just hate to see someone not give Ben a fair shake just because those same people are over-estimating him, that's all. The two are unrelated, even if the lines are blurred.


On second thought, I may have just been overthinking a throwaway comment by Brick.

 

[Glenn]

On second thought, I may have just been overthinking a throwaway comment by Brick.

Brick is too smart for us.

 

[3me]

The starters SHOULD be...

Jimmer
Bmac
Moute
Thompson
Cousins

But you'd have to understand the game to know that.

 

[dude12]

The starters SHOULD be...

Jimmer
Bmac
Moute
Thompson
Cousins

But you'd have to understand the game to know that.

Obviously meant to stir it up with Jimmer in there because even if you like him, he's nobody's starting PG in the NBA.

 

[dude12]

Does anyone have an answer as to what has happened with Thornton? Two years ago we were raving about him, especially the ice cold blood in his veins in the last minutes of a close game. I haven't seen more than two games this year so can't offer any thoughts.

I thought McLemore was going to be a starter before summer league. I had watched a lot of videos of him in college and saw his strengths and deficits which are obvious going both ways. He has great positives and great negatives. We are finding that he can fit in just fine if we play to his strengths and do not ask him to do what he cannot do. If not, why all the excitement but that's a different story. I DO remember that Thornton plays better as a starter and perhaps he is in a long sulk. I find this answer to be low on my list but can't think of anything else unless he is just in a learning period and patience is warranted.

I truly believe he is not meant to be in a structured offense and I think his 1 good year, it was mostly the freelance offense being run by our team.....I think the same goes for a few of our guys who were able to get some stats but he's having a very hard time with structure. I have hope for IT as he shows some ability to distribute and then also will jack up shots at an alarming rate.

 

[VF21]

The starters SHOULD be...

Jimmer
Bmac
Moute
Thompson
Cousins

But you'd have to understand the game to know that.

Pretty tough talk for someone who just signed up on the board. You might want to take a bit of time to get to know the surroundings before you decide you're the pre-eminent authority on the Kings or NBA basketball. Thus far, you've shown nothing but emotional myopia for Jimmer Fredette.

Bring some facts instead of just blank rhetoric, but don't expect many of us to have a lightbulb moment based on what you've said thus far.

For whatever reason (and I personally put a lot of blame on Keith Smart), Jimmer has yet to show that his collegiate game can transfer effectively to the NBA. And don't even think about accusing me of being a hater - I like Jimmer, I even have a #7 jersey with his name on it hanging in my Kings closet.

This whole discussion about Jimmer has been going on since the day he was drafted. You really think NONE of us have at least as much understanding of the game as you do?

 

[Glenn]

Pretty tough talk for someone who just signed up on the board. You might want to take a bit of time to get to know the surroundings before you decide you're the pre-eminent authority on the Kings or NBA basketball. Thus far, you've shown nothing but emotional myopia for Jimmer Fredette.

Bring some facts instead of just blank rhetoric, but don't expect many of us to have a lightbulb moment based on what you've said thus far.

Speak for yourself. I am personally grateful to have my stupidity pointed out to me. I had been drifting along thinking I had a reasonable grasp of how to analyze basketball talent and I needed 3me to help me understand my limitations. My only problem is that the dang light bulb was 250 watt and not 25 watt and it hurt my eyes.

 

[3me]

Obviously meant to stir it up with Jimmer in there because even if you like him, he's nobody's starting PG in the NBA.

Disagree. Start Jimmer at PG and this team makes the playoffs. Jimmer's game is all about getting to his second wind, then relaxing and then dominating. Once he finds his rhythm, which this team has never allowed him to do, he dominates the game. There were plenty of head scratcher first halves at BYU, just to see him come out in the 2nd half and blaze a fire. It will take a coach to put himself out on the line and believe in Jimmer, but once one does, Jimmer will be an all-star in this league and very Nash-like.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Man that silky J

 

[jcwkings]

Why is this so important? I don't understand the fascination with these types of players. I do not want IT to do this with Cousins on the court, its a detriment to the team. A PG shouldn't look to create for himself 3/5 times down the court, I literally cannot stand to watch that type of basketball anymore. I just want the ball to move and end up in Cousins' hands every single time down the court and if Cousins is not free or can't finish/double team, I want him to pass to the open man. It's really that simple. Cousins is unique he can run the offense in ways 98% of big men dream about; he is our trump card and I trust his decision making 10 times over IT's. We have seen enough of players that can "create their own shot." Not surprisingly, we have sucked every single year with those types... from IT to Thornton to Tyreke to John freakin Salmons. Let's play some team ball shall we? For once.

Only a select few players have the capability to create their own shot and score consistently without it being a detriment to the team and even then it can still ruin a team's flow on offense. Look at Kobe. I have seen him play countless times and there have been times when they lost because he shot too much and didn't give it up enough. IT isn't 1/10 as gifted as Kobe, but yet manages to shoot 17 times in 28 minutes. That's ridiculous. If we had a Durant/Lebron type of player, I would sit back and say go to work and do what you want. Those are hall of fame players and they can win you the game doing that. IT cannot. Don't wanna stir up old memories, but thank god we got Vasquez when we lost Tyreke. He has his faults, but at least he knows when to pass the ball.

What i mean by "create their own shot" doesn't mean literally a guy that gets offense for himself, but a guy that can consistently beat his man off the dribble and draw defenders for guards, and for big guys it would be a guy that can draw double teams. On this team we have 2 (Cousins and IT). No team can be be good in this league without guys that can do that consistently. IT can consistently beat his man and draw defenders, its too bad more often than not he puts up his blinkers and looks to score himself, if he could establish the pass first, he would get much easier looks for himself later on in the game. BTW Thornton is not someone that can create for himself, can't beat his man off the dribble, he is and should be an off ball scorer very much like McLemore.

 

[Bricklayer]

Disagree. Start Jimmer at PG and this team makes the playoffs. Jimmer's game is all about getting to his second wind, then relaxing and then dominating. Once he finds his rhythm, which this team has never allowed him to do, he dominates the game. There were plenty of head scratcher first halves at BYU, just to see him come out in the 2nd half and blaze a fire. It will take a coach to put himself out on the line and believe in Jimmer, but once one does, Jimmer will be an all-star in this league and very Nash-like.

I'm not sure whether I am smelling something green and warty or whether its just another Jimmer cultist, but that claim was pretty ridiculous even when he was drafted, let alone years later

 

[Kingster]

Does anyone have an answer as to what has happened with Thornton? .

First, the Kings tried to trade him on draft day, so he wasn't exactly seen as a "building block.". Second, they chose McLemore as heir apparent. That said, I'm not drawing any conclusions about Thornton during the preseason. Let's see what happens during the regular season.

 

[Kingster]

wow i'm suprised threres 0 votes for IT, Vasquez is clearly better as a starter for what he brings, but overall they are pretty close, i could see IT closing many games this season. IT is really the only guy that can create for himself other than Cousins.

Maybe it's because people like me haven't seen Vasquez play on TV yet. I'd at least like to see a half-dozen regular season games before I begin to make a choice on Vasquez/IT. One thing for sure, it's not like the stats have Vasquez outshining IT. 4 assists last night; 1 for 8 from the field. That doesn't give me wings.

 

[Bricklayer]

Maybe it's because people like me haven't seen Vasquez play on TV yet. I'd at least like to see a half-dozen regular season games before I begin to make a choice on Vasquez/IT. One thing for sure, it's not like the stats have Vasquez outshining IT. 4 assists last night; 1 for 8 from the field. That doesn't give me wings.

minor detail, but 6 assists

Nonetheless there is absolutely no doubt which one of the two will notch more assists every night.

 

[Spike]

Speak for yourself. I am personally grateful to have my stupidity pointed out to me. I had been drifting along thinking I had a reasonable grasp of how to analyze basketball talent and I needed 3me to help me understand my limitations.

I've been telling you this for years, and NOW you notice?!

 

[VF21]

Disagree. Start Jimmer at PG and this team makes the playoffs. Jimmer's game is all about getting to his second wind, then relaxing and then dominating. Once he finds his rhythm, which this team has never allowed him to do, he dominates the game. There were plenty of head scratcher first halves at BYU, just to see him come out in the 2nd half and blaze a fire. It will take a coach to put himself out on the line and believe in Jimmer, but once one does, Jimmer will be an all-star in this league and very Nash-like.

...wow...

Earth to 3me - Jimmer's game may have been great for BYU but, this far, it has NOT translated to the NBA. You can live in the past all you like, but it's not going to change the present. Facts are facts. Lots of college stars simply don't find a way to last in the big league. Look at the draft list for past years and you always see those who were drafted high with great expectations and never found a way to make it work.

There is a place for a shooter like Jimmer Fredette but it's not going to be as a Nash-like all-star.