Patience level for WCS? (merged)
- Thread starter Kingsfan23
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Willie needs to continue to see DNPs, maybe that will awaken the fire in the belly and up his work ethic and effort more. I've been saying from the get go that if Joerger doesn't want to play him, let him get some burn in the D-League. It won't hurt one bit. You get better by playing, not by watching.
I have been a WCS fan and was very happy with his work last year. However, he is obviously not going to fit this team going forward. The horse might have already bolted but I think it might be time to cash in on WCS while we can in hope to bring in a productive player that fits this team.
He might very well become the player we hoped he would somewhere else but if we do hold on to him we might have another McLemore on our hands. One thing is clear, he is just not part of this team as it currently stands.
He might very well become the player we hoped he would somewhere else but if we do hold on to him we might have another McLemore on our hands. One thing is clear, he is just not part of this team as it currently stands.
Tough to give up on a prospect with his size, athleticism, and defensive skill set.
He's having a tough time in Joerger's system, but maybe it's just growing pains.
Wouldn't want to hold out hope for too long though. Teams used to be knocking on our door for B Mac every trade deadline. Don't think that happens anymore.
I think that if someone offers up an asset of value, you pull the trigger on a trade, but I'd hope Vlade wouldn't ship him out just for a trades sake.
He's having a tough time in Joerger's system, but maybe it's just growing pains.
Wouldn't want to hold out hope for too long though. Teams used to be knocking on our door for B Mac every trade deadline. Don't think that happens anymore.
I think that if someone offers up an asset of value, you pull the trigger on a trade, but I'd hope Vlade wouldn't ship him out just for a trades sake.
I agree with both you and Carolija which doesn't seem possible does it? WCS is a great athlete. I am not a coach and I don't want to be critical of Joerger but I am puzzled as to why he looks so lousy this year. I was far more enthused about him last year. As it is, I am real hesitant to bail on him. I think gunks' final sentence is the way I feel at the moment. It wouldn't hurt our team if he road the bench all year.
Perhaps there is no solid right or wrong view.
Perhaps there is no solid right or wrong view.
K
What hurts this most is looking at who we could have taken instead. This was actually a very good draft:
1. Minnesota Timberwolves - Karl-Anthony Towns, Kentucky
2. Los Angeles Lakers - D'Angelo Russell, Ohio State
3. Philadelphia 76ers - Jahlil Okafor, Duke
4. New York Knicks - KristapsPorzingis, Latvia
5. Orlando Magic - Mario Hezonja, Croatia
6. Sacramento Kings - Willie Cauley-Stein, Kentucky
7. Denver Nuggets - Emmanuel Mudiay, Congo
8. Detroit Pistons - Stanley Johnson, Arizona
9. Charlotte Hornets - Frank Kaminsky, Wisconsin
10. Miami Heat - Justise Winslow, Duke
11. Indiana Pacers - Myles Turner, Texas
12. Utah Jazz - Trey Lyles, Kentucky
13. Phoenix Suns - Devin Booker, Kentucky
14. Oklahoma City Thunder - Cameron Payne, Murray State
15. Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.) - Kelly Oubre Jr., Kansas
1. Minnesota Timberwolves - Karl-Anthony Towns, Kentucky
2. Los Angeles Lakers - D'Angelo Russell, Ohio State
3. Philadelphia 76ers - Jahlil Okafor, Duke
4. New York Knicks - KristapsPorzingis, Latvia
5. Orlando Magic - Mario Hezonja, Croatia
6. Sacramento Kings - Willie Cauley-Stein, Kentucky
7. Denver Nuggets - Emmanuel Mudiay, Congo
8. Detroit Pistons - Stanley Johnson, Arizona
9. Charlotte Hornets - Frank Kaminsky, Wisconsin
10. Miami Heat - Justise Winslow, Duke
11. Indiana Pacers - Myles Turner, Texas
12. Utah Jazz - Trey Lyles, Kentucky
13. Phoenix Suns - Devin Booker, Kentucky
14. Oklahoma City Thunder - Cameron Payne, Murray State
15. Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.) - Kelly Oubre Jr., Kansas
I saw that play last night. Sauce is showing flashes, but he could still take a couple three seasons to really hit his stride.
I don't think we should give up on WCS. I do think he has value and along Rudy's/Darren's value is pretty sizable trade asset. that value should be swapped for Dragic or another established guard who can get his own shot and create for others. A player who can handle the ball at the end of close games could change everything for the Kings..
The solution isn't to bench him though. We've done this to basically every young guy (except Ben for some reason) where we give up on them way too early without actually letting them go through growing pains and giving them consistent playing time. Willie was super effective last season with Boogie, but they've only seen 68 minutes together on the floor this year. He's only had 3 outings above 20 minutes this season and 12 games with less than 10 minutes. That basically suggests he gets pulled the second he makes his first mistake.
My biggest gripe with Joerger this year by far is benching the 2 guys who had a lot of success next to Boogie last season (Omri, WCS) in favor of guys like Koufos, Tolliver and Barnes. Just doesn't make any sense.
How is it fair to judge him on his production when his playing time is so inconsistent and he doesn't get any real run on the court when he does play?
My biggest gripe with Joerger this year by far is benching the 2 guys who had a lot of success next to Boogie last season (Omri, WCS) in favor of guys like Koufos, Tolliver and Barnes. Just doesn't make any sense.
How is it fair to judge him on his production when his playing time is so inconsistent and he doesn't get any real run on the court when he does play?
K
Joerger at the NBA level has never really developed any player (could argue Green but he only got to play due to massive injury) and he did the exact thing he's doing to WCS to Ed Davis back in the 2013/2014 season. While WCS has done nothing to warrant playing time by playing like Thornton I do agree with you. DJ has shown to be a good coach when it comes to coaching a veteran team at the NBA level but he's had little chance and has been unwilling to develop any young talent in that time.
Omri plays with fire and hustle everytime he gets some minutes. Can we say the same about Willie? I understand where you are coming from, but Willie has to basically force Joergers hand by clearly outplaying his teammates.
This hasn't happened so far, so why play a second year player, who is proving that he has a very limited skillset, who doesn't play hard and who makes mistakes, over third string vets like Tolliver?
I mean if Willie is that good and that effective playing next to Boogie he should be able to outplay Barnes or Tolliver shouldn't he? If he is a promising prospect he shouldn't look lost in Summerleague after a full NBA season should he?
In Memphis Joerger inherited a working core of players from Hollins. A core, which is still intact. It sure seems like a little bit different situation to SAC. It's one thing to get playing time, when you have Zbo or Gasol logging most of the minutes, with Speights/Arthur/leuer in 2012-13, Koufos/Leuer in 2013/14 as possible backups at the C/PF positions.
But when a team has Tolliver as his starting PF, old man Barnes playing small ball 4 and a bulky, full sized lane clogger in Koufos starting next to Cuz, because of the lack of roster quality, my first look, when a talented young player isn't getting minutes, mainly goes towards the young player himself and not towards his coach.
I don't know what's up with Willie, but more often than not it looks like he is just going through the motions, he looks lethargic and undecisive.
When he actually tries, he looks decent enough. But how often have we seen that this season? If he feels like the coach is treating him wrong, why is he not out there trying to show him, what he is capable off, when he actually gets minutes?
Playing Koufos next to Cuz actually makes more sense, than playing the current version of WCS.
Koufos outplays Willie in every single category, while being much less athletic and probably less talented. Not Koufos fault, that Willie can't grab a rebound or box out to save his life and that he isn't good at what was his calling card coming out of college - defense.
And Barnes/Tolliver play next to Cuz to give him space inside. Worked well over the last games, where Cousins passing was great. We give up in the rebounding area playing those guys next to Cuz, but do we improve reboundingwise by playing Willie? I don't think so.
This hasn't happened so far, so why play a second year player, who is proving that he has a very limited skillset, who doesn't play hard and who makes mistakes, over third string vets like Tolliver?
I mean if Willie is that good and that effective playing next to Boogie he should be able to outplay Barnes or Tolliver shouldn't he? If he is a promising prospect he shouldn't look lost in Summerleague after a full NBA season should he?
In Memphis Joerger inherited a working core of players from Hollins. A core, which is still intact. It sure seems like a little bit different situation to SAC. It's one thing to get playing time, when you have Zbo or Gasol logging most of the minutes, with Speights/Arthur/leuer in 2012-13, Koufos/Leuer in 2013/14 as possible backups at the C/PF positions.
But when a team has Tolliver as his starting PF, old man Barnes playing small ball 4 and a bulky, full sized lane clogger in Koufos starting next to Cuz, because of the lack of roster quality, my first look, when a talented young player isn't getting minutes, mainly goes towards the young player himself and not towards his coach.
I don't know what's up with Willie, but more often than not it looks like he is just going through the motions, he looks lethargic and undecisive.
When he actually tries, he looks decent enough. But how often have we seen that this season? If he feels like the coach is treating him wrong, why is he not out there trying to show him, what he is capable off, when he actually gets minutes?
Playing Koufos next to Cuz actually makes more sense, than playing the current version of WCS.
Koufos outplays Willie in every single category, while being much less athletic and probably less talented. Not Koufos fault, that Willie can't grab a rebound or box out to save his life and that he isn't good at what was his calling card coming out of college - defense.
And Barnes/Tolliver play next to Cuz to give him space inside. Worked well over the last games, where Cousins passing was great. We give up in the rebounding area playing those guys next to Cuz, but do we improve reboundingwise by playing Willie? I don't think so.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to excuse the poor play of WCS this year; dude has flat been awful in the limited run he has gotten. And Joerger is a coach where young guys have to force his hand to play them as you said. But anything you just said (all great points) doesn't dispute the fact that we've given up on our young guys way too easily recently and have been content to let them fall by the wayside.
WCS had a really solid rookie year; I don't think there's any disputing that fact. Guy had some really quality games when he got 25+ minutes of run. I just think it's a mistake to shove him aside for the likes of old man Barnes, Tolliver and Koufos out of position. We know what those guys are as players. I want to see WCS get 25+ MPG the next 40 games and see what happens, especially because he's one of the only players left on the team who can actually get better. We dumped Trob after 50 games before we knew what he could be, Stauskas after a season before we knew what he could be. Dumped IT as he was developing into an All-star. Dumped Reke to save money. I'd hate to see the same for WCS because of a bad 3 months.
I don't want to give up on him (except if we could swap him for a wing player, which we need more than another PF/C). I agree, that the Kings made a lot of mistakes with their young players and that they should value them more instead of giving up on them early.
But right now the problem is, that everyone wants to win now. Wether you and I think it's a good strategy to try to win now, doesn't count.
DMC wants to win now, Vlade wants to win now and Vivek wants to win now, which means Joerger was hired to win games now and not to develop players.
And sadly something is wrong with Willie. I don't know what it is, but he just isn't the same anymore. It might be, that the absence of a playmaker is hurting him the most (he actually had his few good moments this year, when Lawson was feeding him) or that he is just completely frustrated and doesn't want to be in SAC anymore. I don't know, but he just isn't helping us to win now or else Joerger would play him.
I think when the ownership, the front office and the star player all want to aim for the Playoffs, we simply can't point at the coach and say: "Dude it's your fault, that our second year player isn't logging 25+ minutes a night", when said second year player is playing awful.
The organisation as a whole wanted to hire vets to go for instant "success". Of course now the coach will play those vets.
But right now the problem is, that everyone wants to win now. Wether you and I think it's a good strategy to try to win now, doesn't count.
DMC wants to win now, Vlade wants to win now and Vivek wants to win now, which means Joerger was hired to win games now and not to develop players.
And sadly something is wrong with Willie. I don't know what it is, but he just isn't the same anymore. It might be, that the absence of a playmaker is hurting him the most (he actually had his few good moments this year, when Lawson was feeding him) or that he is just completely frustrated and doesn't want to be in SAC anymore. I don't know, but he just isn't helping us to win now or else Joerger would play him.
I think when the ownership, the front office and the star player all want to aim for the Playoffs, we simply can't point at the coach and say: "Dude it's your fault, that our second year player isn't logging 25+ minutes a night", when said second year player is playing awful.
The organisation as a whole wanted to hire vets to go for instant "success". Of course now the coach will play those vets.
Sounds good, but if you need a specific skillset for Joergers system, why is/was Koufos playing? All Koufos does on offense is set screens, do dribble hand offs in horn sets and search for lanes to roll to the rim (Ok I'm purposely leaving out the D here, where KK can guard big guys and keep DMC out of foul trouble....
).
That's what's so frustrating about the WCs dilemma. There are glimpses here and there, that leave you behind thinking "Woaah I didn't know he could do that". Willie has one of the quickest first steps leaguewide for a big guy, but he almost never uses it to attack his man, when the initial handoff to his guard doesn't work ( instead he most often just stands there not even thinking of attacking his own man). Than suddenly late in the clock you watch him doing the Dwigh Howard move - simple fake one side and go the other - and it works nearly everytime, because he is so ****ing quick. Same with those occasional up and under moves or pivots or left handed hooks.
I personally am convinced, that Willie can play. He is just incredibly timid or too laid back. He doesn't want it and he just doesn't have that aggressive nature to make something happen.
And not having an aggressive nature and not wanting to make plays can kill careers.
). That's what's so frustrating about the WCs dilemma. There are glimpses here and there, that leave you behind thinking "Woaah I didn't know he could do that". Willie has one of the quickest first steps leaguewide for a big guy, but he almost never uses it to attack his man, when the initial handoff to his guard doesn't work ( instead he most often just stands there not even thinking of attacking his own man). Than suddenly late in the clock you watch him doing the Dwigh Howard move - simple fake one side and go the other - and it works nearly everytime, because he is so ****ing quick. Same with those occasional up and under moves or pivots or left handed hooks.
I personally am convinced, that Willie can play. He is just incredibly timid or too laid back. He doesn't want it and he just doesn't have that aggressive nature to make something happen.
And not having an aggressive nature and not wanting to make plays can kill careers.
Yes he has good gifts, I agree. He can shut them down, as in he's capable of doing it more in the future. I don't how you took 'shut down', but I meant (in stretches) not allowing players to get a clean shot off and having to dish it out, altering shots creating misses, and blocking around the rim. I've certainly seem him do those things. To say he's never shut down anyone and that he can't even guard is an extreme.
Perhaps the biggest myth to me is that WCS is low value.
Perhaps the biggest myth to me is that WCS is low value.
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There has been an odd reluctance on that point, but then again Willie blew it SO bad from virtually the moment Joerger showed up its hard to judge.
The Omri thing is rather more mysterious, but we have extra bodies, and its hard to escape the idea that Omri just was not wanted, which is too bad.
Either way, its also hard to escape the reality that apart form Cuz this is likely to be yet another full turnover/new regime/changing of the guard by this summer, with basically all of the old holdovers gone. Rudy, Collison, Ben, Omri, and likely WCS. The cost of constantly changing regimes I suppose. Everybody wants their own people, so there is no continuity. So this one has to stick. Same coach, same GM, same star, for years and let's finally build something next year instead of just tearing down every 9 months.
The Omri thing is rather more mysterious, but we have extra bodies, and its hard to escape the idea that Omri just was not wanted, which is too bad.
Either way, its also hard to escape the reality that apart form Cuz this is likely to be yet another full turnover/new regime/changing of the guard by this summer, with basically all of the old holdovers gone. Rudy, Collison, Ben, Omri, and likely WCS. The cost of constantly changing regimes I suppose. Everybody wants their own people, so there is no continuity. So this one has to stick. Same coach, same GM, same star, for years and let's finally build something next year instead of just tearing down every 9 months.