Papagiannis (split from Lawson thread)

[Blob]

Could not agree more.

We all love Boogie and would love for him to stay here the next 10 years, but a forward thinking GM would have realized our time was up with him and gotten a warchest of assets. Look how awesome the Boston trades ended up being for them.. all because Ainge dealt his stars a year too early rather than a year too late. The timing of it could not have been more perfect to make a move either... new arena, new coach and a bunch of youth we could have sold fans.

Agree the draft day trade was fantastic, but the Papagiannis pick was absolutely atrocious if the intent is to keep Cousins here long-term. The only way we'll find out if Papa is worth his salt is if Boogie is gone... which is a major net negative. Guys like Baldwin, Ellenson, Valentine or Hernangomez all would have been able to actually help this team win while Cousins is here... something Papa won't be able to do.

Basically, we ruined an opportunity to hit the reset button in a big way and expedite our rebuild in just a couple seasons. Instead, we're going to end up trading an expiring Boogie for a lot less than we could have and possibly end up losing our lottery pick next year because we attempted to make the playoffs with a team that isn't good enough to do so.

Sorry but your analysis is a fail when you already writing off an 18 year old kid at the time he was drafted just turned 19.....Papa is a man-child with mobility and good hands. He's two inches taller than Boogie and he was totally out of shape and overwhelmed in SL. Vlade who was a near all-star as an NBA center for over a decade said at the time of the pick that he projects Papa as a future NBA all-star center. These are the facts plus fact timer is counting down on Boogie's contract and we need an escape plan if in the event we move on from him. To conclude at this premature date Papa was an atrocious pick is misread of the circumstances before the guy has even played one NBA minute less LVSL. I am expecting a different player than the slug we witnessed in Las Vegas. If he sheds 10-15 pounds and gets his wind right I see a guy who make an impact 20-30 games into the season.

EDIT: I know you put a qualifier on your opinion of the atrocity, but whether he stays or not is a two way street. The intent may very well to keep him long-term but ultimately said player has to want to stick around. Hence the stockpile of bigs.

 

[Suicide King]

I believe Papa was taken with the idea he could either eventually take over as a replacement for 2k or in an emergency (i.e. Cousins leaves/wants out) take over as the starter. Assuming he reaches his perceived potential.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sorry but your analysis is a fail when you already writing off an 18 year old kid at the time he was drafted just turned 19.....Papa is a man-child with mobility and good hands. He's two inches taller than Boogie and he was totally out of shape and overwhelmed in SL. Vlade who was a near all-star as an NBA center for over a decade said at the time of the pick that he projects Papa as a future NBA all-star center. These are the facts plus fact timer is counting down on Boogie's contract and we need an escape plan if in the event we move on from him. To conclude at this premature date Papa was an atrocious pick is misread of the circumstances before the guy has even played one NBA minute less LVSL. I am expecting a different player than the slug we witnessed in Las Vegas. If he sheds 10-15 pounds and gets his wind right I see a guy who make an impact 20-30 games into the season.

EDIT: I know you put a qualifier on your opinion of the atrocity, but whether he stays or not is a two way street. The intent may very well to keep him long-term but ultimately said player has to want to stick around. Hence the stockpile of bigs.

THIS season? Highly HIGHLY doubtful.

You can learn more than that about a guy from Summer League and tapes. He's really shown one skill of note at any level we've seen, and that is working a pretty good roll on the pick and roll (and has pretty good hands for it). That's literally it. No post moves. No jumper. Not a great rebounder. Not disruptive as a shotblocker. And in today's NBA there will be an issue with him having to leave the paint to chase 3pt shooting midgets. A bit like Sim Bhullar really, where the massive size wasn't relevant because he could do few things size allow you to do. He does seem to set a good pick to set up those pick and rolls I suppose. But in any case, you have a guy who right now is a big lumbering offensive roleplayer.

The only reason not to call him a flat bust is his age. But the reason age matters is that he has more time to develop other aspects. Not because boom, he's suddenly going to taking the league by storm by January or his rookie year. If he can dramatically upgrade his defense then maybe he could eventually be useful. But that would take time even if agility, timing, verticality etc. don't scuttle it. Seems like a nice kid too, which is really too bad. if he were nasty like Nurkic maybe we could at least get him to just thug people.

 

[Blob]

THIS season? Highly HIGHLY doubtful.

You can learn more than that about a guy from Summer League and tapes. He's really shown one skill of note at any level we've seen, and that is working a pretty good roll on the pick and roll (and has pretty good hands for it). That's literally it. No post moves. No jumper. Not a great rebounder. Not disruptive as a shotblocker. And in today's NBA there will be an issue with him having to leave the paint to chase 3pt shooting midgets. A bit like Sim Bhullar really, where the massive size wasn't relevant because he could do few things size allow you to do. He does seem to set a good pick to set up those pick and rolls I suppose. But in any case, you have a guy who right now is a big lumbering offensive roleplayer.

The only reason not to call him a flat bust is his age. But the reason age matters is that he has more time to develop other aspects. Not because boom, he's suddenly going to taking the league by storm by January or his rookie year. If he can dramatically upgrade his defense then maybe he could eventually be useful. But that would take time even if agility, timing, verticality etc. don't scuttle it. Seems like a nice kid too, which is really too bad. if he were nasty like Nurkic maybe we could at least get him to just thug people.

You are forming quite the sweeping conclusions off 4-5 game stint in which I think the guy was previously sidelined with injury IIRC and simply not ready to play. If you go back and compare his pre-draft videos to SL, I think you will see he was running and moving much better overseas than States. So what is going to happen is he is going to get healthy, shed the baby fat, and learn from the humbling experience. This is the most logical course of action, not a guarantee, but most likely.

The reason I have confidence is that when you hear him speak he has uncommon maturity for a 19 year old. He has no-nonsense attitude and bit of a swagger. He's not some wide-eyed kid just happy to have a spot on the roster. He wants to make his mark. He's been playing pro since age 14 and eager for this new challenge.

The real concern would be if the guy lacked coordination, because if you are bumbling mess of limbs then there's no hope. But he has good hands and decent feet. He just was FAT and SLOW in summer league.....and 2-3 months of serious conditioning can make world of difference. Remember years 18-21 when the growth curve is the STEEPEST, if all goes according to plan. This is what Kings fans can pin hopes upon....And less we forget, size and speed wins in NBA....you can't teach 7'0.

 

[Bricklayer]

You are forming quite the sweeping conclusions off 4-5 game stint in which I think the guy was previously sidelined with injury IIRC and simply not ready to play. If you go back and compare his pre-draft videos to SL, I think you will see he was running and moving much better overseas than States. So what is going to happen is he is going to get healthy, shed the baby fat, and learn from the humbling experience. This is the most logical course of action, not a guarantee, but most likely.

The reason I have confidence is that when you hear him speak he has uncommon maturity for a 19 year old. He has no-nonsense attitude and bit of a swagger. He's not some wide-eyed kid just happy to have a spot on the roster. He wants to make his mark. He's been playing pro since age 14 and eager for this new challenge.

The real concern would be if the guy lacked coordination, because if you are bumbling mess of limbs then there's no hope. But he has good hands and decent feet. He just was FAT and SLOW in summer league.....and 2-3 months of serious conditioning can make world of difference. Remember years 18-21 when the growth curve is the STEEPEST, if all goes according to plan. This is what Kings fans can pin hopes upon....And less we forget, size and speed wins in NBA....you can't teach 7'0.

you can't teach talent or instincts either, and those you either have or don't.

You can learn more from Summer League than most people think -- you watch for skillsets, not production. But in Papa's case the discomfort runs far before then to the half hour at least of video I have seen of him playing in Europe. You can watch as much of it as you want, and you will see the same things over and over: sets a good screen, rolls well, good hands on the catch and finish. Mistimes and slow to react on the boards. Never gets to anything on defense. Pretty good physical activity/agility for the size, but not enough to impact things. No evidence of any jumper and no post attempts. Again and again, at least 4 different games, and some of them are highlight packages, as in these are the GOOD plays. Summer league in such a case just filled in some holes in our knowledge, the complete lack of familiarity with the post game being a big one. This is a project center.

 

[jcwkings]

you can't teach talent or instincts either, and those you either have or don't.

You can learn more from Summer League than most people think -- you watch for skillsets, not production. But in Papa's case the discomfort runs far before then to the half hour at least of video I have seen of him playing in Europe. You can watch as much of it as you want, and you will see the same things over and over: sets a good screen, rolls well, good hands on the catch and finish. Mistimes and slow to react on the boards. Never gets to anything on defense. Pretty good physical activity/agility for the size, but not enough to impact things. No evidence of any jumper and no post attempts. Again and again, at least 4 different games, and some of them are highlight packages, as in these are the GOOD plays. Summer league in such a case just filled in some holes in our knowledge, the complete lack of familiarity with the post game being a big one. This is a project center.

I think he was severely out of shape, dealing with injury and also had the added pressure of being a top pick who was mocked by everyone. Just quickly watching some clips and photos of him in the last few weeks he looks in better shape, at least from what I remember in SL. Anyways we have Cousins, Koufos and Willie, I doubt we see much of Papa in his rookie season, if we do its because the season has gone down the drain.

 

[The_Jamal]

Sorry but your analysis is a fail when you already writing off an 18 year old kid at the time he was drafted just turned 19.....Papa is a man-child with mobility and good hands. He's two inches taller than Boogie and he was totally out of shape and overwhelmed in SL. Vlade who was a near all-star as an NBA center for over a decade said at the time of the pick that he projects Papa as a future NBA all-star center. These are the facts plus fact timer is counting down on Boogie's contract and we need an escape plan if in the event we move on from him. To conclude at this premature date Papa was an atrocious pick is misread of the circumstances before the guy has even played one NBA minute less LVSL. I am expecting a different player than the slug we witnessed in Las Vegas. If he sheds 10-15 pounds and gets his wind right I see a guy who make an impact 20-30 games into the season.

EDIT: I know you put a qualifier on your opinion of the atrocity, but whether he stays or not is a two way street. The intent may very well to keep him long-term but ultimately said player has to want to stick around. Hence the stockpile of bigs.

You completely ignored my premise. It's not even about Papa (although, I do have concerns after SL), it's the fact we wasted our 13th pick on by far our strongest position instead of trying to find guys who can compliment our franchise player. Skal, Malachi and Bogdan are all guys you can see playing around Cousins (if they pan out of course) and eventually becoming starters or major contributors off the bench. Papa AT BEST if we keep Cousins long-term, which should be the ultimate goal, is going to be his 15 MPG back-up. That's not what we should be shooting for from the 13th overall pick. And there's next to 0 chance he's better than Kosta over the next 3 years.

I don't really care what Vlade projects either. He has no history we can look to as a talent evaluator, and he's made an assortment of questionable moves already for me not to blindly put all my faith in him. So that's not a "fact" whatsoever.

And a contingency plan for Cousins this early is stupid. Papa isn't some blue-chip prospect that we had to have no matter what we passed up to draft him.

 

[Blob]

You completely ignored my premise. It's not even about Papa (although, I do have concerns after SL), it's the fact we wasted our 13th pick on by far our strongest position instead of trying to find guys who can compliment our franchise player. Skal, Malachi and Bogdan are all guys you can see playing around Cousins (if they pan out of course) and eventually becoming starters or major contributors off the bench. Papa AT BEST if we keep Cousins long-term, which should be the ultimate goal, is going to be his 15 MPG back-up. That's not what we should be shooting for from the 13th overall pick. And there's next to 0 chance he's better than Kosta over the next 3 years.

I don't really care what Vlade projects either. He has no history we can look to as a talent evaluator, and he's made an assortment of questionable moves already for me not to blindly put all my faith in him. So that's not a "fact" whatsoever.

And a contingency plan for Cousins this early is stupid. Papa isn't some blue-chip prospect that we had to have no matter what we passed up to draft him.

I guess you are a better evaluator of NBA centers (prospects and player) than the guy who played the position for a decade. Vlade took the guy he felt could make the most impact, a guy with all-star potential. The guys you mention were projected as back-ups in a weak draft. When you are terrible team you take the guy who make the most impact, not role players to put around a guy that may leave in 2 seasons or be traded before then.

One reason I like the pick if Boogie sticks around is that you can prolong a big man's career by having teammates do the dirty work and absorb some of the pounding he would otherwise take. Boogie can slide to the 4 on some match-ups and let Papa bang with the opposing big. This is one way to reduce wear and tear over a long season.

 

[Blob]

you can't teach talent or instincts either, and those you either have or don't.

You can learn more from Summer League than most people think -- you watch for skillsets, not production. But in Papa's case the discomfort runs far before then to the half hour at least of video I have seen of him playing in Europe. You can watch as much of it as you want, and you will see the same things over and over: sets a good screen, rolls well, good hands on the catch and finish. Mistimes and slow to react on the boards. Never gets to anything on defense. Pretty good physical activity/agility for the size, but not enough to impact things. No evidence of any jumper and no post attempts. Again and again, at least 4 different games, and some of them are highlight packages, as in these are the GOOD plays. Summer league in such a case just filled in some holes in our knowledge, the complete lack of familiarity with the post game being a big one. This is a project center.

He is better than you think.

 

[mac]

I guess you are a better evaluator of NBA centers (prospects and player) than the guy who played the position for a decade. Vlade took the guy he felt could make the most impact, a guy with all-star potential. The guys you mention were projected as back-ups in a weak draft. When you are terrible team you take the guy who make the most impact, not role players to put around a guy that may leave in 2 seasons or be traded before then.

One reason I like the pick if Boogie sticks around is that you can prolong a big man's career by having teammates do the dirty work and absorb some of the pounding he would otherwise take. Boogie can slide to the 4 on some match-ups and let Papa bang with the opposing big. This is one way to reduce wear and tear over a long season.

If Papa's current play (SL, Euro play) indicates all star potential then about 90% of guys coming into the league also have all-star potential. If it's just about his physical quickness and size then ... 80% have all-star potential. For every Hassan Whiteside (who was a very surprising case) there are at least a dozen Kwame Browns. This idea that Papa has all-star potential would never even exist if Vlade didn't say it.

 

[kingsboi]

If Papa's current play (SL, Euro play) indicates all star potential then about 90% of guys coming into the league also have all-star potential. If it's just about his physical quickness and size then ... 80% have all-star potential. For every Hassan Whiteside (who was a very surprising case) there are at least a dozen Kwame Browns. This idea that Papa has all-star potential would never even exist if Vlade didn't say it.

I think we can all agree that Vlade had no business even saying that in the first place IMO....potential or not, obviously he wanted to hype the kid up and make it seem as if he believes he got himself a Euro stud, which will prove to be far from the truth as far as I see it with my own two eyes.

 

[KingsFan80]

You are forming quite the sweeping conclusions off 4-5 game stint in which I think the guy was previously sidelined with injury IIRC and simply not ready to play. If you go back and compare his pre-draft videos to SL, I think you will see he was running and moving much better overseas than States. So what is going to happen is he is going to get healthy, shed the baby fat, and learn from the humbling experience. This is the most logical course of action, not a guarantee, but most likely.

The reason I have confidence is that when you hear him speak he has uncommon maturity for a 19 year old. He has no-nonsense attitude and bit of a swagger. He's not some wide-eyed kid just happy to have a spot on the roster. He wants to make his mark. He's been playing pro since age 14 and eager for this new challenge.

The real concern would be if the guy lacked coordination, because if you are bumbling mess of limbs then there's no hope. But he has good hands and decent feet. He just was FAT and SLOW in summer league.....and 2-3 months of serious conditioning can make world of difference. Remember years 18-21 when the growth curve is the STEEPEST, if all goes according to plan. This is what Kings fans can pin hopes upon....And less we forget, size and speed wins in NBA....you can't teach 7'0.

Papa will not be good for at least 2-3 years, he was an extreme risk. Hopefully it works out.

 

[Blob]

Papa will not be good for at least 2-3 years, he was an extreme risk. Hopefully it works out.

Papa can contribute this year IF he has a great summer of strength and conditioning work. And I don't see why he cannot have a great summer. I wouldn't expect him to be rotational player by the Game 1. But I can see 25-30 games into the season he could earn a spot, contingent on probable Koufos trade for backcourt help.

I said this about Steven Adams before the draft when Ben slipped to us at #7

Steven Adams is 19 years old, a legit 7'0", with a 250 pound chiseled build, with a nice shooting touch. He’s tough and smart. He has athletic ability and defensive instincts. The polish is not there. But the confidence, skill and framework to be a high quality starting NBA center for 10 years exists.

He should be seriously considered wherever the Kings pick.

Adams is on my radar because of size (7’0, 250), age (19), agility, confidence and a decent skill set (holds position in paint, nice half hook, decent mechanics on jumper). I think he’s going to impress a lot of teams at individual workouts and someone in the lottery is going to liken him to guys like Noah and Asik. The comparisons are appropriate.

The main point is Papa ranks as a better prospect than Steven Adams. Now I did not say this before the draft because when I saw his clips and saw he only average 3 PPG I dismissed him as a lottery prospect and did not do my due diligence. Later did I realize he was only getting like 10-15 MPG of playing time and his stats were suppressed to his playing situation.

After studying him more extensively (after the pick was made) I can say he is a better prospect than Adams, who has pretty much turned into a Top 10 center in the NBA.

How do I come to this conclusion? Papa is longer and younger than Adams at similar stage. I think Papa is about 2 inches taller than Adams. Adams has decent mobility for a big, he hedges screens well, but he's also a very upright and stiff. Papa has some of that too, but there is more fluidity to his game (not in LSVL but Euro clips), and more of a semblance of a half hook and post move.

Adams has developed that part of his game a little since coming to OKC, but I see more potential in Papa. Once Papa gets himself into elite shape, where he is running sprints without getting tired, doing a lot of cross fit drills, anaerobic strength training, low body and core work, he can be highly effective with his size, hands and semblance of basketball skill. This is why Vlade drafted him. Its not going to take 2-3 years to realize this vision.

And also the project tag is dubious because this kid has been dedicating himself to professional basketball since age 14! His maturity curve is accelerated for this reason. But yeah he needs to get his fat butt in shape. I said the same thing about Boogie ad nauseum when he came into the league as a 19 year old, and its no different with Papa.

 

[gunks]

Adams has that mean streak though.

We'll see with Papa. It's way too early to write him off. I also think it's way too early to expect anything out of him.

Definitely my least favourite as far as the rookies go. Malachi looks like he can be a 3 and D type guard. Skal is looking like he can be a great stretch 4. Papa? Who knows. But I'm rooting for him!

 

[Bricklayer]

This is the enormous difference:

Steven Adams is 19 years old, a legit 7'0", with a 250 pound chiseled build, with a nice shooting touch. He’s tough and smart. He has athletic ability and defensive instincts.

Steven Adams was always a good prospect for what he mainly does: play the defensive thug. great prospect at that actually. The rest of his game has come around nicely of late, but bereft of the tough guy defensive attitude it would barely matter and he'd be backing up Kanter, or whatever he wants to call himself today..

On a similar front, if Papa came over with a tough guy defensive game or rep and his offense was in the simplistic state it is in, then he too would be a more interesting prospect, because he would have something useful he could do in the NBA until the offense came around, or something to keep him in the NBA if it didn't. But there is no evidence of that. Not just in summer league, but in Europe. You can "teach" a little of that, guys have improved in that aspect at times. And you can teach defensive theory to anybody. But again it takes time, and its fairly rare for fish to turn into fowl. Most gritty physical defensive types grow up that way. Adams himself was a really large street tough who got it tamed.

 

[Entity]

A lot of talk about papa. I wrote this guy off the night we drafted him. Next subject

 

[206Fan]

Papa can contribute this year IF he has a great summer of strength and conditioning work. And I don't see why he cannot have a great summer. I wouldn't expect him to be rotational player by the Game 1. But I can see 25-30 games into the season he could earn a spot, contingent on probable Koufos trade for backcourt help.

I said this about Steven Adams before the draft when Ben slipped to us at #7



The main point is Papa ranks as a better prospect than Steven Adams. Now I did not say this before the draft because when I saw his clips and saw he only average 3 PPG I dismissed him as a lottery prospect and did not do my due diligence. Later did I realize he was only getting like 10-15 MPG of playing time and his stats were suppressed to his playing situation.

After studying him more extensively (after the pick was made) I can say he is a better prospect than Adams, who has pretty much turned into a Top 10 center in the NBA.

How do I come to this conclusion? Papa is longer and younger than Adams at similar stage. I think Papa is about 2 inches taller than Adams. Adams has decent mobility for a big, he hedges screens well, but he's also a very upright and stiff. Papa has some of that too, but there is more fluidity to his game (not in LSVL but Euro clips), and more of a semblance of a half hook and post move.

Adams has developed that part of his game a little since coming to OKC, but I see more potential in Papa. Once Papa gets himself into elite shape, where he is running sprints without getting tired, doing a lot of cross fit drills, anaerobic strength training, low body and core work, he can be highly effective with his size, hands and semblance of basketball skill. This is why Vlade drafted him. Its not going to take 2-3 years to realize this vision.

And also the project tag is dubious because this kid has been dedicating himself to professional basketball since age 14! His maturity curve is accelerated for this reason. But yeah he needs to get his fat butt in shape. I said the same thing about Boogie ad nauseum when he came into the league as a 19 year old, and its no different with Papa.

I'm really rooting for Papagiannis, but I remember Stevens was a far superior athlete compared to Papa. He also played more aggressively and tough than him too.

I think they're both entirely different players.

Papa, at his ceiling, is probably a very good offensive C who can be a non-liability on D. Not much praise for that side because his footspeed is SLOW. I think he'll gain more strength, but just not enough quickness. Papa is the type of C who would do good on defense vs. Cousins, but not someone like Whiteside. (Who knows though, Gasol has become a defensive anchor)

Adams at his ceiling is the entire opposite. Elite defensive C with a decent offense/non liability on that side.

 

[King Baller]

Now this is coming from someone who wanted Wade Baldwin with the 13th pick. But I have watched a little video of Big Papa and he has some game right around the hoop, dunks and blocks. He also sets a nice pick. So I think he could play a role from the bench with the second unit.

He needs to work out with NBA players to get an idea of the jump in the skill level and speed of the game.

Here is a some video that highlights what he CAN do--->

 

[Blob]

I'm really rooting for Papagiannis, but I remember Stevens was a far superior athlete compared to Papa. He also played more aggressively and tough than him too.

I think they're both entirely different players.

Papa, at his ceiling, is probably a very good offensive C who can be a non-liability on D. Not much praise for that side because his footspeed is SLOW. I think he'll gain more strength, but just not enough quickness. Papa is the type of C who would do good on defense vs. Cousins, but not someone like Whiteside. (Who knows though, Gasol has become a defensive anchor)

Adams at his ceiling is the entire opposite. Elite defensive C with a decent offense/non liability on that side.

Entirely different players? That's a mischaracterization. They are both limited offensive players who make their mark with their size and physicality. They are not leapers. They are paint cloggers who defend with their verticality. They score off the pick and roll, that is rolling to the basket, and follow dunks, an occasional half-hook and garbage put back.

How you conclude this amounts to "entirely different players" is just incredulous to me.

And I would LOVE to know where you were when you proclaimed Adams as an ELITE defensive center before he was drafted because when I proclaimed this guy a legitimate lottery talent I got zero support from the Kings fan base. I am not talking after the fact when facts are in abundant supply. I am talking about what I saw in Adams as a player at Pitt before he became a Top 10 NBA center. I knew Adams was going to be good, and I think Papa can be better.

Now I do want to address your point about athleticism. Adams was leaner and stronger than Papa at the same age. But this can viewed as a positive OR negative. On one hand you can say that Papa is going to grow into his body, shed the baby fat, and this transformation will make radical difference in his effectiveness. You can simultaneously say that a player like Adams is closer to his ceiling when he came into the NBA in relatively good shape. The counter perspective is that Papa will consistently struggle with conditioning and weight and will be a limiting variable in his performance. I prefer the former perspective because an 18 year old kid is not even done growing, let alone near achieving the physique and level of conditioning he is likely to attain if he is disciplined and professional in approach to his craft.

And in regards to the latter point, Papa strikes me as someone with a above average maturity for his age, so I don't anticipate work ethic being an issue. By the way, I saw the same above average maturity in Adams, and that's one of the reason he turned into such a good player.

 

[Blob]

This is the enormous difference:



Steven Adams was always a good prospect for what he mainly does: play the defensive thug. great prospect at that actually. The rest of his game has come around nicely of late, but bereft of the tough guy defensive attitude it would barely matter and he'd be backing up Kanter, or whatever he wants to call himself today..

On a similar front, if Papa came over with a tough guy defensive game or rep and his offense was in the simplistic state it is in, then he too would be a more interesting prospect, because he would have something useful he could do in the NBA until the offense came around, or something to keep him in the NBA if it didn't. But there is no evidence of that. Not just in summer league, but in Europe. You can "teach" a little of that, guys have improved in that aspect at times. And you can teach defensive theory to anybody. But again it takes time, and its fairly rare for fish to turn into fowl. Most gritty physical defensive types grow up that way. Adams himself was a really large street tough who got it tamed.

Steven Adams is not a thug. And if you are just going to call him a thug you are selling him short. He's a good basketball player. He's tough. He defends without fouling. He's also not afraid to commit hard fouls. And he doesn't allow his emotions to get the best of him. That's not a thug. That's a hard-nosed player who controls his emotions. Something you can't always say about your boy Cousins.

And there's absolutely NO reason Papa cannot grow into similar role. He's bigger than Adams and not afraid of contact. He catches the ball and knows where to be on the court. Not bad for a man-child who just turned 19.

 

[bajaden]

This is the enormous difference:



Steven Adams was always a good prospect for what he mainly does: play the defensive thug. great prospect at that actually. The rest of his game has come around nicely of late, but bereft of the tough guy defensive attitude it would barely matter and he'd be backing up Kanter, or whatever he wants to call himself today..

On a similar front, if Papa came over with a tough guy defensive game or rep and his offense was in the simplistic state it is in, then he too would be a more interesting prospect, because he would have something useful he could do in the NBA until the offense came around, or something to keep him in the NBA if it didn't. But there is no evidence of that. Not just in summer league, but in Europe. You can "teach" a little of that, guys have improved in that aspect at times. And you can teach defensive theory to anybody. But again it takes time, and its fairly rare for fish to turn into fowl. Most gritty physical defensive types grow up that way. Adams himself was a really large street tough who got it tamed.

Well I saw him up close and personal, and I have to admit, at times he was almost laughable on offense. But, I will say that on defense around the basket, he did show some potential. He blocked out well for rebounds, and blocked a few shots. He reminds me of when Marc Gasol first ceme into the league and was traded to the Grizzlys. He was seriously overweight and very slow and plodding. Two years later, and 50 or so pounds lighter, he looked like a different player. Of course he was more skilled offensively than Papagiannis is, but it would benefit Papagiannis to lose some weight and get into great shape.

If he does that, and puts in the work, he may become at minimum, a servicable backup, and at best, maybe a starter in the league. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one though. He is fairly mobile and has decent shotblocking instincts. But offensively, he's about as mechanical as you can get. He needs a ton of work.

 

[bajaden]

I'm really rooting for Papagiannis, but I remember Stevens was a far superior athlete compared to Papa. He also played more aggressively and tough than him too.

I think they're both entirely different players.

Papa, at his ceiling, is probably a very good offensive C who can be a non-liability on D. Not much praise for that side because his footspeed is SLOW. I think he'll gain more strength, but just not enough quickness. Papa is the type of C who would do good on defense vs. Cousins, but not someone like Whiteside. (Who knows though, Gasol has become a defensive anchor)

Adams at his ceiling is the entire opposite. Elite defensive C with a decent offense/non liability on that side.

Actually, if you had a chance to see him live at summer league, he runs the floor very well, and has decent lateral quickness. I thought he showed more potential defensively than he did offensively. He blocked some shots and rebounded well. Offensively he was like a bomber surrounded by jet fighters. Everything was moving way too fast for him. He needs to lose about 20 or so pounds and get into top NBA shape. It would be in his interest to spend most of the year in Reno where he can get serious minutes.

 

[King Baller]

 

[dude12]

Papa looked a lot lighter and more nimble in this clip than he did in LVSL. Way too early to write off the kid, way to early to declare Skal a future cornerstone rotation guy....I mean we watched WCS for a whole season and its still to early to know if he's going to be the defensive stopper we are hoping he becomes.

 

[KingsFan80]

Probability wise there is a better chance he isn't very good vs. being good. Steven Adams is better than most guys who come out of the draft, especially big men. Thank god we drafted Skal and Malachi too.

 

[Jimbob]

I wonder how much influence or not Joerger had with this pick.
We keep hearing how he and Vlade are on the same page and shortly after the draft I heard Marc Gasol comparisions, those have since disappeared.

 

[bajaden]

Probability wise there is a better chance he isn't very good vs. being good. Steven Adams is better than most guys who come out of the draft, especially big men. Thank god we drafted Skal and Malachi too.

You know, I find it amazing how many people are tooting the Steven Adams pick now after the fact. I watched Adams in the Adidas international challenge and in the Jordan Brand Classic. No one had even heard of him until then except some scouts. I took note because he outplayed most of the bigs in those two games. He played one year at Pitt, and put up decent numbers, but didn't wow anyone. So this idea that he came into the NBA as some kind of stud is ridiculous. He was athletic, but limited offensively. He did play with an attitude and had good defensive instincts. But who he is today isn't who he was coming out of college.

Papagiannis is an entirely different type of player, and whether he turns out to be anything is anyone's guess, but I certainly wouldn't compare him to Adams. Actually the original Marc Gasol is not a bad comparison. I remember the first time I saw him in a game and he must have weighed 320 lbs minimum. I remember telling my son that I couldn't believe the Grizz traded for him and he would never amount to anything. Of course I didn't know he was going to go on a crash diet and lose a ton of weight. He didn't even look like the same player. Point is, he looked almost as bad as Papagiannis did in summer league. You never know!

 

[ElRey]

Papa looks much more athletic and mobile in those highlight videos. I suspect his leg injury right before the start of summer league may have played a role in how unathletic he looked in Summer league

 

[King Baller]

Out of shape, injured, new surrounding, lack of good PG play........all could have contributed. Lets see how he looks after training camp in preseason. I think we will see Papa G play better.

 

[206Fan]

Entirely different players? That's a mischaracterization. They are both limited offensive players who make their mark with their size and physicality. They are not leapers. They are paint cloggers who defend with their verticality. They score off the pick and roll, that is rolling to the basket, and follow dunks, an occasional half-hook and garbage put back.

How you conclude this amounts to "entirely different players" is just incredulous to me.

And I would LOVE to know where you were when you proclaimed Adams as an ELITE defensive center before he was drafted because when I proclaimed this guy a legitimate lottery talent I got zero support from the Kings fan base. I am not talking after the fact when facts are in abundant supply. I am talking about what I saw in Adams as a player at Pitt before he became a Top 10 NBA center. I knew Adams was going to be good, and I think Papa can be better.

Now I do want to address your point about athleticism. Adams was leaner and stronger than Papa at the same age. But this can viewed as a positive OR negative. On one hand you can say that Papa is going to grow into his body, shed the baby fat, and this transformation will make radical difference in his effectiveness. You can simultaneously say that a player like Adams is closer to his ceiling when he came into the NBA in relatively good shape. The counter perspective is that Papa will consistently struggle with conditioning and weight and will be a limiting variable in his performance. I prefer the former perspective because an 18 year old kid is not even done growing, let alone near achieving the physique and level of conditioning he is likely to attain if he is disciplined and professional in approach to his craft.

And in regards to the latter point, Papa strikes me as someone with a above average maturity for his age, so I don't anticipate work ethic being an issue. By the way, I saw the same above average maturity in Adams, and that's one of the reason he turned into such a good player.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this basically Adams' write up:

Very strong and big center. Great size. Runs the floor well. Plays physical D. Plays with a 100% motor. Limited offense. Lacks any type of inside scoring. Lacks touch at the rim. Poor FT shooter. Is a rim protector.

That sounds nothing like Papagiannis...:
Big bodied C. Great size, but tremendously out of shape. Runs the floor decently. Not a physical player. Lots of potential on offense. Has developed a post game. Can shoot from mid range. Has touch around the rim. Decent FT shooter. Potential as a rim protector.

They're almost nothing alike imo. I don't see it at all. I wasn't here in 2013, but in 2013, I still wouldn't have drafted Adams knowing he'd turn into the player he would today. Doesn't fit at all next to Cousins. It would be a complicated fit.

I just don't see the 2 players as comparable. I see Papa as a C with a lot more offensive upside, but less defensive upside. Adams is more of a defensive C with little offensive upside. The only thing they have in common is that they're both at least 7ft and have good size. Other than that, I personally just don't see it.

I have a feeling Papa is more likely to turn into a Marc Gasol on offense than he is Adams on defense.