#pace #jazzband = Karl

#1
Vivek says he talked to Karl a couple months ago and was blown away.

I think all the silly front office jabber about pace and jazz band and all that stuff was really Vivek just trying to paraphrase Karl's philosophy and feel out the reaction. When he was so resoundingly mocked over these things he probably pulled his head back in his shell and decided to wait it out with Ty until that became untenable.

Karl has said a lot of stuff since being hired that sounds like pace and jazzband like "we want to be values based and not rules based" (I do believe I have heard this quote verbatim from both Vivek and Karl).. "we want players to improvise".

Bottom line - I think Vivek fired Malone with the intention of replacing him with Karl right away. Then he tripped over his own feet while he was crowdsourcing his jazzpacehands crap.

But Karl was his boy all along.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#5
what they said last year too of course
Last year's draft class hasn't quite been the treasure trove it was made out to be (mainly because three of the key picks got injured and have missed all/most of the season) but it's not exactly a horrid draft, though the fact that our pick has contributed maybe about as much to the team this season as a mid-sized house cat might say otherwise.
 
Last edited:
#6
This year's draft class hasn't quite been the treasure trove it was made out to be (mainly because three of the key picks got injured and have missed all/most of the season) but it's not exactly a horrid draft, though the fact that our pick has contributed maybe about as much to the team this season as a mid-sized house cat might say otherwise.
The top three are all really good, so the media decided, hey why not hype up the whole draft class
 
#8
Vivek says he talked to Karl a couple months ago and was blown away.

I think all the silly front office jabber about pace and jazz band and all that stuff was really Vivek just trying to paraphrase Karl's philosophy and feel out the reaction. When he was so resoundingly mocked over these things he probably pulled his head back in his shell and decided to wait it out with Ty until that became untenable.

Karl has said a lot of stuff since being hired that sounds like pace and jazzband like "we want to be values based and not rules based" (I do believe I have heard this quote verbatim from both Vivek and Karl).. "we want players to improvise".

Bottom line - I think Vivek fired Malone with the intention of replacing him with Karl right away. Then he tripped over his own feet while he was crowdsourcing his jazzpacehands crap.

But Karl was his boy all along.
Maybe, but this would go against the multiple reports that Vivek was in Mullins ear for days trying to persuade him to take the HC position after Malones firing
 
#9
Maybe, but this would go against the multiple reports that Vivek was in Mullins ear for days trying to persuade him to take the HC position after Malones firing
i think vivek was trying to mirror his big sister club and hire another 'kerr' in mullin. he seems to believe you can just swap ppl out and the software program will continue to run w/o a glitch. vivek's been kicked in the nuts by the media for the past few months for all the bats*** crazy crap he spews. the rules of the game is going to be changed by analytics. if you want to defend a lebron all you have to do is punch in a few #s into the software and it will tell you the best way to defend him.
 
#10
Maybe, but this would go against the multiple reports that Vivek was in Mullins ear for days trying to persuade him to take the HC position after Malones firing
This seems to be one of the biggest problem in our forum. The media says something and we fans pick it up as if media are always telling the whole truth of the story. We also put high value on those articles that are clearly speculative, even though we all know how the media plays. We forget that a lot of the reports are for entertainment and a lot are made to create news/controversy. Do not believe everything they say. Believe them only if their reports came directly from the horses' mouth (quotes) during interviews or when they use irrefutable and reliable sources. We should never forget to apply what we have learned from high school - that is to be a good critic of whatever we read.

I can't blame Cousins being frustrated every time his name comes out bad in the news. Just for example, the media made it look like Cousins is a coach killer and recently media made it look like Cousins' does not want George Karl to be the coach. All lies if you'll ask Cousins.
 
#11
Bottom line - I think Vivek fired Malone with the intention of replacing him with Karl right away. Then he tripped over his own feet while he was crowdsourcing his jazzpacehands crap.

But Karl was his boy all along.
Actually, a lot of names were considered. They tried Ty Corbin and they were really at first hoping he could bring more wins, but of course it was crystal clear the team got worse. Karl, Jackson, and Corbin were in consideration as early as when Malone started to show signs he will not be able to correct his flaws in due time.
 
#12
vivek's been kicked in the nuts by the media for the past few months for all the bats*** crazy crap he spews.
And I really hope Vivek coming out to refute whatever this powerful media insinuated about him will be clear in your head now.

Read the quotes below which came straight/directly from Vivek's mouth (and not from media speculations that we always tend to believe). And if still, you cannot believe the good man and prefers to believe the media speculations and the posters here who hate Vivek, I would suggest you forget how Vivek looks when you think of him and maybe you'll overcome your biases.

Read:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015...-owner-says-hiring-coach-before-gm-a-mistake/

LARGE: It’s been publicized, and you’ve talked about it even on 60 Minutes and CNBC, your coaching of your daughter’s team. You’ve brought some of those out-of-the-box ideas to the Kings organization. How comfortable will be going to a future Hall of Fame coach, asking him to consider some of your thoughts?

RANADIVE: I never actually asked Coach Malone or Coach Ty to consider anything. I know a lot of people talk about the 5-on-4 and so on. So that was not something that I ever proposed to anyone. But when we talked within the front office, we always bounce ideas off. I ask annoying questions, but the coach does his own thing always. So my job is just to brainstorm and come up with ideas, but we’ll never tell the coach what to do. Especially when you have a master like George Karl—but the same was true for Malone. I never actually called Malone and said, “Hey would you do this?” “Would you do that?” or “Would you play that player?” That’s not how we operate. The coach is the director of the symphony, and he’s conducting it and he does what he wants, and that’s how it should be.

LARGE: Those were published reports, so you’re refuting those published reports that you were giving advice to Malone.

RANADIVE: No, no, no, no. I’ve never played basketball in my life. I would never do that. I’ve never ever actually asked him to play—there’s only one instance where I actually asked him if he would play somebody, and that was when one of our players, his father had died that day and he still was going to show up for the game. So I gently suggested that if the young man put on his jersey and came to the game, then we owed it to him to put him in the game at least for a few minutes. He was playing in honor of his father. So in all of the time that we spent together, that was the only time that I actually made a suggestion. And in that situation, again, it was through the GM, and the GM said the coach was planning on doing that anyway. So, no, so those reports—if you believe everything you read I would urge you not to. I have never made any suggestions to the coach in terms of who to play, how to play, what to play. That’s all up to the coach.
 
Last edited:
#13
This seems to be one of the biggest problem in our forum. The media says something and we fans pick it up as if media are always telling the whole truth of the story. We also put high value on those articles that are clearly speculative, even though we all know how the media plays. We forget that a lot of the reports are for entertainment and a lot are made to create news/controversy. Do not believe everything they say. Believe them only if their reports came directly from the horses' mouth (quotes) during interviews or when they use irrefutable and reliable sources. We should never forget to apply what we have learned from high school - that is to be a good critic of whatever we read.

I can't blame Cousins being frustrated every time his name comes out bad in the news. Just for example, the media made it look like Cousins is a coach killer and recently media made it look like Cousins' does not want George Karl to be the coach. All lies if you'll ask Cousins.
Hold up.

You've repeated numerous times the unconfirmed report that Malone didn't want to re sign Cousins or Rudy. At one point, it was your primary excuse for firing Malone.

Now, for Ranadive contradicting himself, since you want to take him at his word.

From ESPN, before he had his story down:

"There are a lot of stories out there that I was telling players what to do and telling the coach what to do," Ranadive says. "None of it was true. They were saying I was advocating playing five-on-four defense with a cherry picker, and I never suggested that. One time we were lamenting the fact that our starters were really good, we'd go up 15 and then our bench would come in and we'd go down five points. And I just said, 'Has anyone ever thought about having four guys on defense and one guy cherry-picking, and if we get a stop we can get our two points back?' I thought in the last part of a quarter, maybe, when you're up 10 and you want to keep the lead, is that a strategy that could be used in the NBA?

"And by the way, I had a number of owners email me saying I wasn't the first guy to think of that. One said, 'I've asked that for years.'"

This questioning, Ranadive says, is all part of the culture. "My role is to set the values and ask the dumb questions," he says.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12317667/the-fast-curious
He says he never suggested 5 on 4, then one sentence later describes suggesting 5 on 4. He refutes the to the coach part.

In your quotes, vivek says "I know a lot of people talk about the 5-on-4 and so on. So that was not something that I ever proposed to anyone."

Uh, but also in his own words, he did propose/suggest 5-on-4. In my world, that's a lie. It's at minimum a bending of the truth.

It makes everything else hard to believe. For me anyway.

That's my concern with vivek, his owns words not adding up completely, not where he is from or what he looks like.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#14
Maybe, but this would go against the multiple reports that Vivek was in Mullins ear for days trying to persuade him to take the HC position after Malones firing
Or, alternatively, it could add gravitas to all those who said there never was any desire for Mullin to become the HC.
 
#15
Or, alternatively, it could add gravitas to all those who said there never was any desire for Mullin to become the HC.
Oh absolutely. There are multiple reports that could go either way and it’s just speculation on my part what is actually true. But the fact that Karl was not hired immediately after Malone’s firing seems to lend credence to Vivek lobbying for Mullin to take the HC job while Mullin was apprehensive to take it without a full offseason under his belt…then after the sh*t hit the fan and the fans started turning on Vivek and the FO, he went into damage control and hired Karl. Again, this is speculation on my part, but if Vivek wanted Karl from the get go (like he is now claiming), he would have gotten him…IMO.
 
#16
Oh absolutely. There are multiple reports that could go either way and it’s just speculation on my part what is actually true. But the fact that Karl was not hired immediately after Malone’s firing seems to lend credence to Vivek lobbying for Mullin to take the HC job while Mullin was apprehensive to take it without a full offseason under his belt…then after the sh*t hit the fan and the fans started turning on Vivek and the FO, he went into damage control and hired Karl. Again, this is speculation on my part, but if Vivek wanted Karl from the get go (like he is now claiming), he would have gotten him…IMO.
OK but why was Vivek spewing his best version of Karlese in the wake of Malone's firing then?
 
#17
OK but why was Vivek spewing his best version of Karlese in the wake of Malone's firing then?
I have no idea what he was spewing, but if he wanted Karl like he said he did and Karl himself openly said he would like to coach here, he should have hired him on the spot rather than spewing whatever it was he was spewing. Makes no sense that this wasn't done immediately and again leads credence to the notion Vivek had other ideas in mind. Unless you have a better explanation?
 
#18
I think there are multiple explanations:

2.5M is a lot of cash to babysit down the stretch

Outright tank - which is actually very much a possibility imo

Camouflage the intention to simply upgrade Malone with Karl (and the fact that he was shopping for an upgrade with Gentry/Karl while Malone was on the bench) ... just try to make the flow seem more organic.

I kind of doubt that Karl would have hung his desire out there for the world to see if his hiring wasn't a fait accompli - he is not naive or likely inclined to make himself look like a fool for nothing.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#19
Oh absolutely. There are multiple reports that could go either way and it’s just speculation on my part what is actually true. But the fact that Karl was not hired immediately after Malone’s firing seems to lend credence to Vivek lobbying for Mullin to take the HC job while Mullin was apprehensive to take it without a full offseason under his belt…then after the sh*t hit the fan and the fans started turning on Vivek and the FO, he went into damage control and hired Karl. Again, this is speculation on my part, but if Vivek wanted Karl from the get go (like he is now claiming), he would have gotten him…IMO.
I don't agree with the conclusion that Karl's not being hired immediately lends credence to Mullin being in the mix. I have also heard repeatedly that they really thought Corbin would be satisfactory until the end of the season.

Bottom line, though, is I don't really care. Mullin isn't the HC and we've finally got what might be light at the end of the tunnel without a locomotive attached to it. ;)
 
#20
He says he never suggested 5 on 4, then one sentence later describes suggesting 5 on 4. He refutes the to the coach part.

In your quotes, vivek says "I know a lot of people talk about the 5-on-4 and so on. So that was not something that I ever proposed to anyone."

Uh, but also in his own words, he did propose/suggest 5-on-4. In my world, that's a lie. It's at minimum a bending of the truth.
I think I see where the confusion is coming from and I think you have the right to question it. It is understandable. But you have to look at the whole context/story of it.

Let me break it down to you.

I have never made any suggestions to the coach in terms of who to play, how to play, what to play. That’s all up to the coach.
No, no, no, no. I’ve never played basketball in my life. I would never do that.
You surround yourself with people smarter than you, and then you let them make the calls. And there’s calls I’ve wanted to make as a fan. I loved [former King, now Phoenix Suns point guard] Isaiah [Thomas], and the front office said, “No, we’re better off with a different person at that position.” And of course they were right.
Clearly, Vivek is proclaiming when it comes to basketball those he hires (coach, GM, players, etc.) know better than him. And this is not the first time he said he surround himself with people smarter than him. And he knows he has to defer to them.

What we are all saying here in this board is we have a delusional, arrogant, and meddling owner who acts as if he knows better than all - which is not true. But somehow, because of our biases we cannot seem to believe this foreign-looking owner's sincerity.

But when we talked within the front office, we always bounce ideas off. I ask annoying questions, but the coach does his own thing always. So my job is just to brainstorm and come up with ideas, but we’ll never tell the coach what to do
This questioning, Ranadive says, is all part of the culture. "My role is to set the values and ask the dumb questions," he says.
You see, we all thought he was actually suggesting to implement the 5-on-4 system. No! He was actually saying he came out with the idea within the front office and during brainstorming. That is far from what we are trying to say - that he is actually suggesting it should be implemented.

Ask yourself, why would he even say he ask "annoying" and "dumb" questions in reference to the 5-on-4, if he truly believes it should be implemented?

And do you know what brainstorming is?

It is when you come-up with all sort of crazy ideas. It is nothing formal and most of the time not even part of official day-to-day work. Maybe you haven't heard of it, but a lot of big and successful companies do it all the time. It is crazy, but it has been proven to be very effective in encouraging people to come-up with brilliant answers to problems.

I don't know why you hate this owner man, but I understand. When Vivek started, I kind of not trust him too that he will bring us a good product on the floor. I thought he was not knowledgeable enough in basketball. But how many of those NBA owners are? Also, I thought he is not rich enough (ala-Balmer) and might not be willing to spend money to improve the team. And when he hired his trusted "friend" Malone as coach, I thought we're in trouble and we are going to be run by a "group of unknowns" to the detriment of team building.

But I am looking now how good it turned out. It could have been worse and thank God it isn't. This guy is using ALL tools to improve the team which is good - from analytics, FO brainstorming to come-up with all sorts of ideas, to crowd-sourcing. That is called being innovative and we all know innovation is the mother of improvement. And you know what more I like? This owner is not afraid to fire a very good friend and lose money for the sake of improving the team as exemplified by the firing of Malone. And BTW, Malone was "respectfully fired", praised for his very important contribution in defense, and not kicked while he was down.

Do you know how hard it is to fire a friend?

Also, look who we have now? A HOF coach in George Karl. I think in due time we will be a very attractive destination for upcoming star players. And this is what year of Vivek's reign? Second year? How long did it take for the genius in basketball (NBA owner Michael Jordan) took to make his team reach the playoffs?
 
Last edited:

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#21
Also, look who we have now? A HOF coach in George Karl. I think in due time we will be a very attractive destination for upcoming star players. And this is what year of Vivek's reign? Second year? How long did it take for the genius in basketball (NBA owner Michael Jordan) took to make his team reach the playoffs?
As anyone who saw his tenure in the Wizards front office or has paid attention to some of his questionable offcourt decisions will probably tell you, it's pretty darn hard to call MJ a genius off-the-court.
 
#22
You've repeated numerous times the unconfirmed report that Malone didn't want to re sign Cousins or Rudy. At one point, it was your primary excuse for firing Malone.
Let me clear this.

I did not say it was the primary excuse or main reason for firing Malone. Malone was fired for different various reasons, but it was one of the reasons that questions Malone's mentality in the early part of this journey. When wisdom tells you it is very important for this team to extend the contract of Cousins and Gay ASAP, and somebody (Malone) is reluctant to do so, what does that tell you about that somebody? And believe me, I scratched my head the same way I've scratched my head when Malone used the under performing rookie Stauskas during a crucial play and when he kept on relying on the never-ending iso-plays for Cousins and Gay (and IT when he was still here) to win games. It was THAT unbelievable and I thought my source was just saying BS.

And BTW, I have a very credible source which at first I did not trust. But I got those info well in-advance and even before the talks of firing Malone was even considered. At first I could not believe my source until it was confirmed by media reports.
 
#24
But somehow, because of our biases we cannot seem to believe this foreign-looking owner's sincerity.
I think it is out of line for you to suggest that people don't trust Vivek or believe his spin machine because of his looks or an inherent bias against a "foreign-looking" guy. That's just an invention of yours - nobody has said anything like that - and it is a pretty nasty thing to say about the rest of the people on the board.

And by the way you don't need to "break anything down" for me or pull in more quotes from Vivek about how he surrounds himself with people smarter than him. Your entire proposition is based on the premise that Vivek is a straight shooter and that the rest of us can't read his own comments. I don't think he is a straight shooter and his comments are contrived to spin a certain version of reality.

He appears to surround himself not with "people who are much smarter than him" but rather with brown-nosers based specifically on the fact that he fired Malone when he did and how he did, and that not one of the supposedly smart people he surrounds himself with would or could talk him out of it even thought it was obviously catastrophic for team morale and fan morale right from the jump. If he does not regret this by now he is the worst kind of fool. I'm sure he does regret it.

But anyway, nobody has exhibited any bias against Vivek because he is a "foreign looking man". That was a rotten thing to say.

Whoever your source is (I believe there is one) - it sounds like he has drunk the koolaid for sure.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#25
I still don't understand how firing someone, who was leading a successful resurgence, in the midst of his all-star player dealing with viral meningitis, was "a nice thing to do." That's pretty much the textbook example of kicking a man when he's down. Letting him go before the season, letting him go after the season, hell, if he would have matched Corbin's record with this team (what was it, 7-21 over the next 28 or something like that?), Vivek would have had just cause.

Now things have been spun into "Malone wanted exactly the opposite of everything that's brought us success." Come on now. Did you not notice the camaraderie between Malone and Cousins? You can't fake that. You just can't.

The issue is that you keep defending the move, when all the data points say it was a bad move, regardless of the fact that we ended up with Karl. We could have had Karl the moment Malone was let go. To me, Vivek finally relenting and bringing in Karl is enough of a "mea culpa" for the time being, and we should treat it as such, regardless of his awkwardly worded apology (which it was). I've been around enough socially awkward smart types to know it's hard to: admit mistakes, and, properly admit mistakes. We all have. This was a pretty good example of both. If anything, the FO needs to work on their PR staff - there are better ways to say the things they've been saying.

Short version: "right" or "wrong" it was a botched move. Let's move on.

P.S. Cram the race card. Do better.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#26
The implication that anyone here is racist stops now. In the future, please do not even bother to respond to those kinds of comments. Report the post and let the moderators handle it.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#27
...And BTW, I have a very credible source which at first I did not trust. But I got those info well in-advance and even before the talks of firing Malone was even considered. At first I could not believe my source until it was confirmed by media reports.
There were rumors floating around about Malone's future or lack thereof for MONTHS before it happened. That doesn't mean they were true. I could cite various sources with rumors of just about anything. Hind sight generally is 20-20.

People really need to quit trying to impress by using the "credible source" because it rarely works.
 
#28
one thing i know is Karl has been talking about playing even faster, playing small, limiting DMC's minutes, and even turning DMC into a 3pt shooter.

i know if those things were mentioned during the Corbin era the pitchforks would be out in Kings world but for now at least, everyone is just waiting to see if it works out
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#29
one thing i know is Karl has been talking about playing even faster, playing small, limiting DMC's minutes, and even turning DMC into a 3pt shooter.

i know if those things were mentioned during the Corbin era the pitchforks would be out in Kings world but for now at least, everyone is just waiting to see if it works out
I'm not. Fans have limited pride. They want to desperately cling to George Karl just the way the Gerbil hopes they will. I don't play that game. there's a right and a wrong way to do this.

Hence, Dear George Karl: if the things being said about you are true, you too will be an idiot unworthy of coaching a great center. Retire now before you **** this up. :p


However, Karl has been a good coach in this league, so I am going to have to see him **** it up first before I start sending him nastygrams.
 
#30
Dear George Karl,

Please don't run Boogie into the ground. Also make sure he plays all the minutes that Andre Miller is on the floor. Andre will feed Boogie the ball in the right places.

Thank you very much,
KB