Our Team and Defense/Effort/ BB IQ

#1
You know what irritates me the most? It's not that we're losing games. It's that some of our guys don't even look that they want to win the game. The worst part is Tyreke and Thornton are two of these guys. Game after game I see Tyreke just giving up on defense once he gets caught on a screen. He has the tools to be a good defender, but right now he isn't playing like he wants to win. He strolls back on D, leaves guys wide open and doesn't even bother trying to close on them, etc. Now I know these don't happen the majority of the game, but the fact is they can't be happening at all if you want to win in this league. If a young player wants to win and their team is doing badly, they'll do all they can to try and help the team out. This is not what I'm seeing from Tyreke Evans. I'm seeing a passive player when he doesn't have the ball, and a guy who chooses when he wants to play defense. Tyreke Evans, you are not Kobe Bryant. Your team is far from as good as the Lakers. You DO NOT get to choose when you want to play good individual D.

Thornton on the other hand, simply gambles for steals way too often. We didn't call Kevin Martin a good defender for doing that and we shouldn't call Thornton for doing it either. Thornton just looks different from last year, he isn't as aggressive and is gambling a lot more on defense. He's also not crashing the boards as much. The play where he got stripped and hung his head got me really mad.

Everyone on this team seems to waste a good 2 seconds after every missed shot. Hickson/Tyreke/JT jump around in circles when they don't convert inside shots, Salmons stands there waiting for his 3 to fall (btw, so am I), Thornton hangs his head, Cousins looks at the ref and complains (I believe Tyreke does that too), or is often on the ground after trying to get a rebound (but I don't blame him for that).

On a young, inexperienced, bad team you simply can't be making all these small mistakes. Our offense is bad enough as it is, we can't be giving the other team any room to take advantage of us more than they already are.

The other thread showed in pictures how poor our spacing/ player movement is. My observation is that at any one time, only two guys on the floor are moving. This happens on one side of the floor and the other 3 guys just stand around. It's like watching amateurs rehearse a play for the first time. Everyone is following a script in sequence, so it's like *ok, pass ball to JT**JT moves to get ball*, next person: *ok now I move to top of the key*, next person: *ok now I go set a screen for guy with the ball*. Everyone is waiting for something to happen before they actually move.

I like most of the personnel on the team, but at some point enough is enough. You cannot have an NBA team with players that cannot screen, cannot fight through screens, cannot use screens effectively etc. I'm just waiting for there to be some change, and I understand the challenge the whole team has because of the lack of practices etc, but I just don't even feel like the players are playing hard anymore. Standing around on offense and taking your time on defense is not playing hard. Our team lacks that competitive fire that we had a few years ago, even if the team was less talented back then. I can assure you that the team we have now would never manage that comeback against the Bulls that we had. They all just hang their heads play after play instead of learning from their mistakes and making the necessary adjustments.

Ok rant over. Feel free to contribute anything you have ...
 
#2
Wow I just watched Smart's post game interview, and I feel exactly the way he does. We're young, but at some point you just have to stop making these stupid, easily correctable mistakes.
 
#3
You know what irritates me the most? It's not that we're losing games. It's that some of our guys don't even look that they want to win the game. The worst part is Tyreke and Thornton are two of these guys. Game after game I see Tyreke just giving up on defense once he gets caught on a screen. He has the tools to be a good defender, but right now he isn't playing like he wants to win. He strolls back on D, leaves guys wide open and doesn't even bother trying to close on them, etc. Now I know these don't happen the majority of the game, but the fact is they can't be happening at all if you want to win in this league. If a young player wants to win and their team is doing badly, they'll do all they can to try and help the team out. This is not what I'm seeing from Tyreke Evans. I'm seeing a passive player when he doesn't have the ball, and a guy who chooses when he wants to play defense. Tyreke Evans, you are not Kobe Bryant. Your team is far from as good as the Lakers. You DO NOT get to choose when you want to play good individual D
Hate to break it to you, but I have been saying this from day 1. It's nothing new. People just didn't want to listen. They see him get the steal from Arenas and think oh he's a great defender. But in reality he's horrible everywhere except on the ball.
 
#4
Hate to break it to you, but I have been saying this from day 1. It's nothing new. People just didn't want to listen. They see him get the steal from Arenas and think oh he's a great defender. But in reality he's horrible everywhere except on the ball.
Like I said he can be a good defender when he wants to, but I'm not seeing the drive necessary. I think his trouble with getting through screens has been brought up quite often. What upsets me is he doesn't even look like he's trying anymore whenever he gets stuck on a screen. It's like ah screw it lets give them an open shot, why bother contesting
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#5
There's a lot of truth to what you say. Personally, I think Tyreke has A+ talent on defense, but as a general rule, he's a C+/B- player on defense. He's an underachiever. If he had been on the Spurs for the last three years you would be hearing Tyreke's name as a candidate for Defensive Player of the Year. I really believe that.

As far as the set up offense is concerned, it seems like they will pass the ball sometimes like they should when the coach gets on them, then they just go back to one-on-one crap, and then everybody stands and watches the one-on-one crap. I think they watch because of "What's the Use?" phenomena - why should I move when Tyreke/Salmons/Thornton are going to dribble, dribble, dribble, or because they just don't know when they should move because of dribble, dribble, dribble.

My expectations are extremely low now about the offense. I'd just like to see this team run fast breaks well on a consistent basis. They can't even do that properly. Heck, what's extremely frustrating is that they will get the ball on a fast break, blow it, then the opposing team comes down on their own fast break and converts. Those are back breakers. They can't even pull up for a freaking mid-range jump shot on the fast break. How about practicing THAT in practice? It's really pathetic right now. Thornton is really bothering me this year with his selfish play. On fast breaks he'll go one on three without passing to an open man. He's forcing it like crazy. As an aside, I remember watching John Wooden UCLA fast breaks as a kid. It was a beautiful thing. Players stopping at the free throw line and shooting the easy pull up. Players shooting nice bank shots off the back board. This team needs to run those Wooden fast break drills several hundred times. They are PATHETIC at running a break.
 

Krunker

Northernmost Kings Fan
#6
Thornton...The play where he got stripped and hung his head got me really mad.
That play bothered me too. Really? Just give up because you got stripped? Then he realizes he might have a chance to catch Ellington and starts to run but by then it is too late.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#7
You know what irritates me the most? It's not that we're losing games. It's that some of our guys don't even look that they want to win the game. The worst part is Tyreke and Thornton are two of these guys. Game after game I see Tyreke just giving up on defense once he gets caught on a screen. He has the tools to be a good defender, but right now he isn't playing like he wants to win. He strolls back on D, leaves guys wide open and doesn't even bother trying to close on them, etc. Now I know these don't happen the majority of the game, but the fact is they can't be happening at all if you want to win in this league. If a young player wants to win and their team is doing badly, they'll do all they can to try and help the team out. This is not what I'm seeing from Tyreke Evans. I'm seeing a passive player when he doesn't have the ball, and a guy who chooses when he wants to play defense. Tyreke Evans, you are not Kobe Bryant. Your team is far from as good as the Lakers. You DO NOT get to choose when you want to play good individual D.
Sigh. Not this again.

Its a longtime weakness of Tyreke's on D. He gets caught on screens like glue. The reasons for that are myriad, perhaps inclduing that he's simply a lot bigger than most PGs and its harder for him to slip through, but he has never tried very hard. Fans see that and go, oh noes! And they should. Its a bad defensive trait.

That said Tyreke has been CONSISTENTLY the best defender on the team this year, in all ways. He's been the one consistently giving the most effort chasing his man around out there. He's beeen the one consistently stripping balls and diving back inside on doubles and doing it within the team defensive structure. And he's consistently been the one making the most big spectacular splash defesnive plays. He also stands in there physically against bigger guys on switches. Closing out is a mixed bag, as he will do it very well on his man, but is unlikely to even make a run at it to cover a random open guy.

Now its certainly not perfect, and aside from stretches its not lockdown. But people have long gotten overfascinated with one aspect of defense and ignored the rest. Yes, he can get picked. Might even be why we have switched to a switch everything defense mode where that does not matter as much. But the overall effort has been very high for a player with as much responsibility on the other side of the ball as he has. He's easily in the Top 1/3 of PGs on defense this year, maybe higher. He's also one of the best rebounders at the position. And we need him to try to play the PG and get people involved off his dribble. And to score 20+ on most nights to win. And... That's a helluva lot of responsiblity for a kid so young. Steve Nash doesn't have all those responsiblities. Neither does Tony Parker. We are asking him to basically do EVERYTHING at a high level, all the time, on both sides of the ball. Very few guys do. The few who do are superstars.

Catch this number: according to 82games.com we are +11.4pts per 100 possessions better with him on the floor than off, and -9.3pts per 100 possessions better on defense with him out there. That's easily the Kings best nubmer, and outside of Rondo would just have to be one of the best defensive +/- numbers for a PG in the entire league. He's got some bad tendencies on defense and sometimes takes his rest where he can get it, but Reke's defense is NOT one of the problems on the team right now. Most teams would love to get as much defensive impact out of thier PG as we do ours.
 
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#8
You know what irritates me the most? It's not that we're losing games. It's that some of our guys don't even look that they want to win the game. The worst part is Tyreke and Thornton are two of these guys. Game after game I see Tyreke just giving up on defense once he gets caught on a screen. He has the tools to be a good defender, but right now he isn't playing like he wants to win. He strolls back on D, leaves guys wide open and doesn't even bother trying to close on them, etc. Now I know these don't happen the majority of the game, but the fact is they can't be happening at all if you want to win in this league. If a young player wants to win and their team is doing badly, they'll do all they can to try and help the team out. This is not what I'm seeing from Tyreke Evans. I'm seeing a passive player when he doesn't have the ball, and a guy who chooses when he wants to play defense. Tyreke Evans, you are not Kobe Bryant. Your team is far from as good as the Lakers. You DO NOT get to choose when you want to play good individual D.

Thornton on the other hand, simply gambles for steals way too often. We didn't call Kevin Martin a good defender for doing that and we shouldn't call Thornton for doing it either. Thornton just looks different from last year, he isn't as aggressive and is gambling a lot more on defense. He's also not crashing the boards as much. The play where he got stripped and hung his head got me really mad.

Everyone on this team seems to waste a good 2 seconds after every missed shot. Hickson/Tyreke/JT jump around in circles when they don't convert inside shots, Salmons stands there waiting for his 3 to fall (btw, so am I), Thornton hangs his head, Cousins looks at the ref and complains (I believe Tyreke does that too), or is often on the ground after trying to get a rebound (but I don't blame him for that).

On a young, inexperienced, bad team you simply can't be making all these small mistakes. Our offense is bad enough as it is, we can't be giving the other team any room to take advantage of us more than they already are.

The other thread showed in pictures how poor our spacing/ player movement is. My observation is that at any one time, only two guys on the floor are moving. This happens on one side of the floor and the other 3 guys just stand around. It's like watching amateurs rehearse a play for the first time. Everyone is following a script in sequence, so it's like *ok, pass ball to JT**JT moves to get ball*, next person: *ok now I move to top of the key*, next person: *ok now I go set a screen for guy with the ball*. Everyone is waiting for something to happen before they actually move.

I like most of the personnel on the team, but at some point enough is enough. You cannot have an NBA team with players that cannot screen, cannot fight through screens, cannot use screens effectively etc. I'm just waiting for there to be some change, and I understand the challenge the whole team has because of the lack of practices etc, but I just don't even feel like the players are playing hard anymore. Standing around on offense and taking your time on defense is not playing hard. Our team lacks that competitive fire that we had a few years ago, even if the team was less talented back then. I can assure you that the team we have now would never manage that comeback against the Bulls that we had. They all just hang their heads play after play instead of learning from their mistakes and making the necessary adjustments.

Ok rant over. Feel free to contribute anything you have ...
Only thing I disagree with you about is that you weren't ranting. You were/are right on the money!

I remember complaining about Bibby's defense on this board while people tried to defend him. ;-) But I don't care what you contribute on offense; if you don't stay in front of your man and fight through screens and get back on d, you're the weak link in the chain. And we seem to have several weak links in our current chain. Evans defensive potential is exciting, and he does seem to be making a better effort this year, but I don't see him giving full effort to every play.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#12
You know what irritates me the most? It's not that we're losing games. It's that some of our guys don't even look that they want to win the game. The worst part is Tyreke and Thornton are two of these guys. Game after game I see Tyreke just giving up on defense once he gets caught on a screen. He has the tools to be a good defender, but right now he isn't playing like he wants to win. He strolls back on D, leaves guys wide open and doesn't even bother trying to close on them, etc. Now I know these don't happen the majority of the game, but the fact is they can't be happening at all if you want to win in this league. If a young player wants to win and their team is doing badly, they'll do all they can to try and help the team out. This is not what I'm seeing from Tyreke Evans. I'm seeing a passive player when he doesn't have the ball, and a guy who chooses when he wants to play defense. Tyreke Evans, you are not Kobe Bryant. Your team is far from as good as the Lakers. You DO NOT get to choose when you want to play good individual D.

Thornton on the other hand, simply gambles for steals way too often. We didn't call Kevin Martin a good defender for doing that and we shouldn't call Thornton for doing it either. Thornton just looks different from last year, he isn't as aggressive and is gambling a lot more on defense. He's also not crashing the boards as much. The play where he got stripped and hung his head got me really mad.

Everyone on this team seems to waste a good 2 seconds after every missed shot. Hickson/Tyreke/JT jump around in circles when they don't convert inside shots, Salmons stands there waiting for his 3 to fall (btw, so am I), Thornton hangs his head, Cousins looks at the ref and complains (I believe Tyreke does that too), or is often on the ground after trying to get a rebound (but I don't blame him for that).

On a young, inexperienced, bad team you simply can't be making all these small mistakes. Our offense is bad enough as it is, we can't be giving the other team any room to take advantage of us more than they already are.

The other thread showed in pictures how poor our spacing/ player movement is. My observation is that at any one time, only two guys on the floor are moving. This happens on one side of the floor and the other 3 guys just stand around. It's like watching amateurs rehearse a play for the first time. Everyone is following a script in sequence, so it's like *ok, pass ball to JT**JT moves to get ball*, next person: *ok now I move to top of the key*, next person: *ok now I go set a screen for guy with the ball*. Everyone is waiting for something to happen before they actually move.

I like most of the personnel on the team, but at some point enough is enough. You cannot have an NBA team with players that cannot screen, cannot fight through screens, cannot use screens effectively etc. I'm just waiting for there to be some change, and I understand the challenge the whole team has because of the lack of practices etc, but I just don't even feel like the players are playing hard anymore. Standing around on offense and taking your time on defense is not playing hard. Our team lacks that competitive fire that we had a few years ago, even if the team was less talented back then. I can assure you that the team we have now would never manage that comeback against the Bulls that we had. They all just hang their heads play after play instead of learning from their mistakes and making the necessary adjustments.

Ok rant over. Feel free to contribute anything you have ...
I can't disagree with most of your observations. The problem I have with our offense, is that I'm not sure what type of offense were trying to run. Its certainly not a motion offense. Too much standing around and no ball movement. If it is a motion offense, then its a complete and utter failure. At times it looks like a dribble drive type offense, where the driver trys to collapse the defense and then dish the ball. Except most times the driver ends up forcing up a shot. Sometimes because that was probably his intent from the beginning, and sometimes because he has no one to dish the ball to, on the interior or the perimiter.

All in all, too much dribbling and not enough passing. The ball always moves faster than a player can, and the bottom line is that you have to defend the ball. When the ball stays in one place, it makes easy to defend. Over the last five or six games I've put down a check mark next to a players name everytime I saw him moving without the ball with a purpose. By that, I mean reversing sides of the floor, making a backdoor cut, or cutting down the lane off a screener. I'm not talking about moving 6 feet to your right or left, or moving toward the ball to recieve a pass. I should also point out that Thornton missed a few of these games, so these observations aren't fair to him.

But the players that most frequently move without the ball are, Thompson, Thomas, Fredette, Cisco, and Greene, even in limited minutes. To a lesser degree I have to include Cousins, although most of his purposeful movement is setting screens, and changing weakside/strongside settings. You'll notice that all the top players in this area are all bench players. And by no means that I'm implying that a unit composed of those players will be successful. But possibly inserting one or two of those players into the starting lineup might balance things better.
 
#14
"A lot of guys are not in great shape to be a running team," Smart said. "We can run in spurts but not full time. Conditioning-wise, we're not there."
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/18/4195570/smart-remains-upbeat-and-confident.html#storylink=cpy

So who is out of shape?

Isn't it something that this far into the season and we still have guys out there not in shape?
Everyone pretty much. This falls on Westfail. He never had them pushing the ball they walked it up.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#15
Everyone pretty much. This falls on Westfail. He never had them pushing the ball they walked it up.

Which a lot of the dominant teams over the years have in fact done. People like excitement so they talk about walking it up like that's bad basketball. Its not. In fact its often the best basketball. But that only applies when you have a good plan of what you are going to do once you get that ball into the halfcourt set. Walking it up and having no halfcourt offense = potently bad combination. One of the reasons young teams are coached to run so often -- they just aren't going to execute in the halfcourt well enough to win at a slower pace. Ditto older teams like the Spurs who's post player is no longer as dominant as he once was. Solution? Run. It covers up lack of talent/experience and gives you a puncher's chance.
 
#16
Which a lot of the dominant teams over the years have in fact done. People like excitement so they talk about walking it up like that's bad basketball. Its not. In fact its often the best basketball. But that only applies when you have a good plan of what you are going to do once you get that ball into the halfcourt set. Walking it up and having no halfcourt offense = potently bad combination. One of the reasons young teams are coached to run so often -- they just aren't going to execute in the halfcourt well enough to win at a slower pace. Ditto older teams like the Spurs who's post player is no longer as dominant as he once was. Solution? Run. It covers up lack of talent/experience and gives you a puncher's chance.
Say no to Dick Mottaball. :p

But Brick this is exactly what your are describing the past 3-4 years. No plan in the half court or at least no plan the players are able to run. Still doesn't change the fact they are out of shape to start with.
 
#17
Who is out of shape? Other than Cousins, I mean. Evans has shown he can do 40 minutes a night. Ditto the rest of the backcourt.

I did think Hayes looked a little pudgy, but he needs that weight to keep from getting pushed over by bigs down low.
 
#18
Who is out of shape? Other than Cousins, I mean. Evans has shown he can do 40 minutes a night. Ditto the rest of the backcourt.

I did think Hayes looked a little pudgy, but he needs that weight to keep from getting pushed over by bigs down low.
Evans can do 40 mins walking the ball up not pushing it. Same with Thornton.
 
#19
When you don't know what the heck your doing and you continuously see nothing but fail worthy results, you will eventually give up. It's like beating a stone with your bare hands, at some point you think, "What is the point of all this? F it". The scary part is the next downward step this team will take is when they start turning on eachother. It's inevitable if they don't get some sort of consistency, a definition of roles, and an idea of how they are supposed to play. That's the coaches job, it's what he gets paid for.
 
#20
Who is out of shape? Other than Cousins, I mean. Evans has shown he can do 40 minutes a night. Ditto the rest of the backcourt.

I did think Hayes looked a little pudgy, but he needs that weight to keep from getting pushed over by bigs down low.
Not that much. He was fat coming into camp, you look at pictures of him from last year and he's at least 15 pounds over weight. Didn't look to really effect him though since he's not relying on athletic ability to produce but it certainly effected his stamina.

Cousins doesn't look out of shape at all to be quite honest. I'm sure his conditioning isn't top notch, but I don't see the point in having a running team with a guy like Cousins. He's a big dude plain and simple, he's going to get tired at that pace just like any other truly big person is going to. This guy is 280 when in good shape. That's just a big guy, don't wear him out, use that size and skill to avoid having to run gimmicky BS.
 
#21
Not that much. He was fat coming into camp, you look at pictures of him from last year and he's at least 15 pounds over weight. Didn't look to really effect him though since he's not relying on athletic ability to produce but it certainly effected his stamina.

Cousins doesn't look out of shape at all to be quite honest. I'm sure his conditioning isn't top notch, but I don't see the point in having a running team with a guy like Cousins. He's a big dude plain and simple, he's going to get tired at that pace just like any other truly big person is going to. This guy is 280 when in good shape. That's just a big guy, don't wear him out, use that size and skill to avoid having to run gimmicky BS.
This is why I cringe when they say we are going to be a running team. Running should be secondary to putting in a good 1/2 court offense. We have the pieces that can break any defense but we don't have the system in place to do that yet. Running isn't bad in and of itself but its not a championship contending offense in my opinion. Run when its there but have a good offense to run when it isn't.
 
#22
Team defense has been a glaring weakness with the Kings for maybe ten years. They tend to play defense like they do offense, one on one. Call the switches, get back after some help, etc. Try some defensive balance to neutralize all those fast break points. Play defense with your feet and your heart. Last night against the Pacers they did some of that. And 70 rebounds! Holy crap that is a lot of rebounds. And teams get rebounds the same way they play successful defense. Desire. DMC has the competitive fire of people like Bird, Magic, Barkeley and Michael. He really does. Salmons should sit for week and watch DeMarcus the whole time.

Keep playing defense and rebound like your career depends on it, which it does and the Kings will stay in games. Sometimes the guards will shoot well and win games by 15-20 points. This coach has already had a positive impact.

For a young team that plays a lot of guys we show some serious lack of conditioning. Defense and rebounding take effort and some guys are forced to rest on offense. It helps explain the standing around. The real disaster however is resting on defense. Jimmer and IT sometimes get beat real bad on defense. They can learn.
 
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Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#23
This is why I cringe when they say we are going to be a running team. Running should be secondary to putting in a good 1/2 court offense. We have the pieces that can break any defense but we don't have the system in place to do that yet. Running isn't bad in and of itself but its not a championship contending offense in my opinion. Run when its there but have a good offense to run when it isn't.
I agree, but I think the original statement is not that our identity will be that of a running team, but that's what we're going to be right now. There simply aren't enough practices in this season to be able to successfully put together a half court offense in the short-term, so you work on fixing what you can. I'm sure towards the end of the year we'll see a much more consistent half court offense.
 
#24
This is why I cringe when they say we are going to be a running team. Running should be secondary to putting in a good 1/2 court offense. We have the pieces that can break any defense but we don't have the system in place to do that yet. Running isn't bad in and of itself but its not a championship contending offense in my opinion. Run when its there but have a good offense to run when it isn't.
I liked the running in tonight's game. At the risk of beating the beehive, Jimmer's sole positive contribution was quick outlets upcourt in transition. He made a few great passes that led directly to points through free throws and passes to the assisting player. He wasn't the only King doing it, but it was something I hadn't seen him do so far this year.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#25
This is why I cringe when they say we are going to be a running team. Running should be secondary to putting in a good 1/2 court offense. We have the pieces that can break any defense but we don't have the system in place to do that yet. Running isn't bad in and of itself but its not a championship contending offense in my opinion. Run when its there but have a good offense to run when it isn't.
You've got to go with what your best at. The Kings are definitely not a half court team because of their lack of skill and their youth. Run or be done.
 
#27
Cousins doesn't look out of shape at all to be quite honest. I'm sure his conditioning isn't top notch, but I don't see the point in having a running team with a guy like Cousins. He's a big dude plain and simple, he's going to get tired at that pace just like any other truly big person is going to. This guy is 280 when in good shape. That's just a big guy, don't wear him out, use that size and skill to avoid having to run gimmicky BS.
I can still remember that experiment in Phoenix when that running/fastbreaking team tried to fit-in the older Shaq. It didn't work. But you know what, Cousins is young and can easily get into good physical condition. He can probably play the way the young Shaq played before.
 
#28
I can still remember that experiment in Phoenix when that running/fastbreaking team tried to fit-in the older Shaq. It didn't work. But you know what, Cousins is young and can easily get into good physical condition. He can probably play the way the young Shaq played before.
Err ... Not to put down DMC but IMO Shaq was on a entirely different level athletically.