Meanwhile in Reno...

Discussion in 'Personnel moves' started by Tetsujin, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    Meanwhile in Reno...

    Malachi Richardson continues to look like D-League Kobe (24pts, 11rbs, 3asts, 3stls)

    and Skal continues to show a really smooth shooting stroke for his size. Not many boards today though. (18pts, 4rbds, 1ast, 3stls)

    Papa didn't play though so fire Vlade, I guess.
    lwc, Bosnian Diehard, ESP47 and 3 others like this.
  2. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    :28 tho on the Malachi clip. Celebrating before shot goes in. Talent
    lwc and alonshin like this.
  3. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

  4. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    Donte Greene-level skill right there.
    upinsmoke and ESP47 like this.
  5. nebs

    nebs Well-Known Member

    Nice. What about the Papa lol
  6. Bricklayer

    Bricklayer Don't Make Me Use The Bat Staff Member Contributor

    Nearly passed his walking and chewing gum test yesterday. Progress.
    lwc, miltonap, ESP47 and 1 other person like this.
  7. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    The next Marshawn Brooks!!!
    chief bromden likes this.
  8. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    At least they are getting playing time somewhere. Malachi might be the closest to playing in the regular season, maybe he will get his shot down the road? maybe not. Either way, keep them there for the duration of the season.
    lwc and k_dubb90 like this.
  9. Fora Dragi

    Fora Dragi Guest

    He can have McLemore's minutes.
  10. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    He will next season when Ben is no longer here.
    lwc and Fora Dragi like this.
  11. upinsmoke

    upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    Absolutely. Malachi will replace Ben next season and George will replace Koufos's role in 2 more seasons. Skal could be potentially be a major contributor as well sooner rather than later.
  12. k_dubb90

    k_dubb90 Well-Known Member

    I always wondered why he never got much burn in the league the guy had talent
  13. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Not necessarily. Bogdanovic is coming over next year as well. That leaves us with Temple, Bogdanovic, & Richardson at SG (if we waive Afflalo). Richardson could very well be the odd man out in the rotation next year.
  14. upinsmoke

    upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    I factored that in that's why I worded it "replace Ben".
  15. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Well then you're not factoring in the possibility that we keep Afflalo next year.

    It could very well be Richardson "replacing" Richardson next year considering he could (again) be the 4th SG behind Temple, Afflalo, & Bogdanovic (just like he is the 4th SG behind Temple, Afflalo, & McLemore this year).
  16. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    God I hope not. Bogdanovic/Temple/Richardson should be fine at SG next season. Temple starts unless/until one of the rookies is ready. There's no reason to waste another $10 million on Afflalo when we have better options already on the roster. I know some people still hate the idea of giving rookies important minutes but Bogdanovic is an old rookie coming from a professional league and Richardson is going to outgrow the D-league by mid-season at the rate he's going right now.
  17. Bricklayer

    Bricklayer Don't Make Me Use The Bat Staff Member Contributor

    This entirely depends on where we are next year. We could be everywhere from looking to build off a playoff appearance, to being in complete teardown mode after having to trade Cousins and start over.
  18. Letsgokings13

    Letsgokings13 Well-Known Member

    I'd really like to see Malachi play with Cuz and our guys. I know it will come in time, but damn am I anxious.
  19. beb0p

    beb0p Well-Known Member

    I have watched a few Reno games now and frankly I don't think Malachi has much left to prove. He is knocking down threes (45%), creating his own shots, rebounding the ball, and in general just too much to handle for D-leaguers. Yes, he turns the ball over too much and too trigger happy, but that's probably comes with the package.

    It would not surprise me if he gets a call-up sooner than expected. With Bogdanovic coming next year I actually think you should give some burn to Richardson this season to get some idea how far along he is. Next season, it will be tough finding minutes for two rookies who both play the same position, I think. Even if one of the rookies is a seasoned European vet.
    VF21 and lwc like this.
  20. Blob

    Blob Well-Known Member

    Malachi with the Steph Curry post-shot reaction at 0:28. I like that confidence, swagger, cockiness, whatever you want to call it, it's the mentality that we have lacked at SG since Doug Christie.
    lwc likes this.
  21. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    It looks like Cuz is a decent GM too. I say let him handle the next draft as well.
  22. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    Richardson is big enough and long enough to play SF as well. You could argue that is where he is playing right now. Patterson plays more like a SF, but Richardson is bigger.
  23. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Never said that I would want to keep Afflalo with the others there, but it's certainly a possibility depending on how Bogdanovic & Richardson look, how Afflalo finishes the season, and our PG situation next year. If we struggle to find a viable backup PG, perhaps Temple is getting a lot of the backup PG minutes which puts Afflalo as the lone veteran SG (rather than having to rely on somewhat unknowns next year).

    Ideally, I'd like us to trade McLemore & Casspi for a starting PF this season. Serge Ibaka, Taj Gibson, Trevor Booker, Amir Johnson, & Markieff Morris come to mind as potential targets. Maybe a 3 team deal with Orlando & Chicago gets it done (if Magic is looking to rebuild at the deadline)?

    Bulls Get: Omri Casspi & Serge Ibaka
    Kings Get: Taj Gibson
    Magic Get: Ben McLemore & Bobby Portis

    Then we play ourselves into a playoff spot this year and are able to resign Gay, Collison, & Gibson going forward (thinking that they may like Joerger & where the team is going). Resigning Gay, Collison, & Gibson, assuming we waive Tolliver & Afflalo, & assuming Barnes picks up his player option would leave us with this roster next year:

    PG - Collison
    SG - Temple / Bogdanovic / Richardson
    SF - Gay / Barnes
    PF - Gibson / Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
    C - Cousins / Koufos / Papagiannis

    Depending on how players perform, you could have some trade assets at SG, PF, & C to further improve the team going forward. If Bogdanovic, Richardson, WCS, Labissiere, & Papagiannis come around, you could potentially have Temple, Barnes, Gibson, & Koufos available to use in trades. They might not bring a ton back, but if the young guys keep us playoff contenders and we are able to move some of those vets for cap space, it may be possible to land a really good FA when it's all said & done.

    PG - GREAT FA / Collison
    SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
    SF - Gay / Barnes
    PF - Labissiere / Cauley-Stein
    C - Cousins / Papagiannis


    PG - Collison
    SG - GREAT FA / Bogdanovic
    SF - Gay / Richardson
    PF - Labissiere / Cauley-Stein
    C - Cousins / Papagiannis


    PG - Collison
    SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
    SF - GREAT FA / Barnes
    PF - Gay / Labissiere
    C - Cousins / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis


    PG - Collison
    SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
    SF - Gay / Barnes
    PF - GREAT FA / Labissiere
    C - Cousins / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis

    It's possible this could be Vlade's vision and why we have yet to blow things up. It's hard to say how high or low the odds are when it comes to these dominoes falling, but if we still have Cousins by the end of the season, our offseason is going to be very, very interesting.
  24. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    6'4.75" w/o shoes, 8'5.5" standing reach, & 200 lbs does not scream SF to me. Can he play some smallball SF? No doubt in my mind, but we could run into issues if (one day) we have him starting against opposing teams SFs. For reference, Gay is 6'7" w/o shoes, has a 8'11" standing reach, & is 230 lbs.
  25. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    Well there's ideal scenarios and then there's what actually happens. I've given up on speculating about what actually happens, but I'm pretty sure (based on past history) that I'm not going to like it. In an ideal scenario where we make decisions not out of desperation or a lack of viable options though, there's no reason for Afflalo to be back next year. Is there a chance that neither Bogdanovic nor Richardson is ready to be part of an NBA roster next season? Sure. But I think the odds of that happening are much lower than the odds of Afflalo re-emerging himself as a valuable player at this point in his career. If you tell me that Richardson and Bogdanovic will both be busts, I would rather we trade for a SG than pick up his option and have that player split minutes with Temple.

    Some of your trade targets are unrealistic. Taj Gibson is the starting PF in Chicago and they're a playoff team. Orlando wouldn't have traded Oladipo for McLemore and Portis so they're not going to give up Ibaka for them now. If you want to trade for a starter, Rudy Gay probably needs to be involved. Please don't take this personally, but I've come to realize that signing a "Great Free Agent" at any position is a joke. It's never happened here. Until it does, it shouldn't be a part of anyone's plan. It should go on the shelf with "winning the #1 overall pick" as rebuild options we agree to avoid. We may be able to sign a serviceable starter while other teams are pursuing a superstar at the same position. That's realistically our ceiling. In combination with other moves that could be enough to propel us forward (see: Vlade in 1998 for instance).

    Big picture wise: I've never been in the Fire Vlade camp and I still think the jury is out on both of his drafts. I think there were better options than Willie but he can still be a valuable role-player if he adjusts his attitude -- big men with defensive impact are always a valuable commodity. If Bogdanovic, Richardson, and Labisierre all develop into solid NBA players than this last draft looks pretty damn good. That's where my hope comes from right now so I would be against any moves which hinder their development. I've always been consistent in my belief that talent wins -- chemistry comes with the winning. Cousins is a great start but we're going to continue to struggle until Vlade manages to put some high-level talent around him. We have some trade-able assets (Rudy, Ben, Darren, Kosta, even Willie) and we may or may not have another high draft pick this year. Somehow/someway those assets need to be converted into 2 or 3 great players. You don't always know where those guys are coming from (no one batted an eye when Golden State drafted Klay Thompson and Draymond Green) but we need to add that level of player here to have success. And it's not going to happen in Free Agency.
  26. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't go as far to say "there's no reason for Afflalo to be back next year" when I have already provided a few. Does that mean it's likely that he will be back next year? No, but those who deal in absolutes can find themselves looking foolish (not saying you're foolish as I always value your input).

    I wouldn't go as far as to say they are unrealistic. The deadline deal I proposed seems pretty fair. I would think that Orlando might need a little more back, but that's about it. I'm very well aware Chicago is a playoff team, but they also have a Rondo, Wade, Butler perimeter. Having a guy like Ibaka out there instead of Gibson would only help that spacing. You could even go with a Mirotic/McDermott/Casspi & Ibaka frontcourt to give those guys two excellent 3pt shooters to help space the floor. I also think you are overvaluing Ibaka. He hasn't been playing as well and the Bulls would only be getting a half year rental (vs. when ORL traded for him they were getting him for a year). It's unwise to think that a player's value doesn't change in the middle of a season.

    I consider Vlade a great FA signing, so to me, it has happened. And to this point, I'm not talking about this very next offseason. This is looking at 2018 or 2019 when the culture has been established, the reputation has been changed, and we've been a consistent playoff team for a few years. That's not unrealistic.

    I certainly see your point and agree to it to some extent, but it's not without risk. Gay has played like an all-star so far this year, and can be a big part of this team going forward. Is it less risky to try and resign him next year or trade him for a mid to late 1st and try to draft a player as good as him? And if we do draft a player who becomes as good or better than him, is it in time to persuade Cousins to stay in Sacramento?

    There are so many variable with this team right now. So many things to consider, and the difficult thing for us fans is we don't really have a good gauge on any of it.
    • What is Cousins really thinking when it comes to FA? Does he need us to be a playoff team to resign? Is he okay if we push towards adding more youth/young assets in hope to develop them as good/great players next to him? Would he get fed up if he's having to wait for the youth to develop?
    • Is Gay open to resigning with us? Was the report just letting us know that he'll opt out and not necessarily leave town?
    • Will Collison leave the first chance he gets? Would he prefer to stay here considering we have a starting spot for him?
    Again, it's really hard for us to be so definitive in our course of action considering we don't have the most knowledge to what the answer would be to these questions. We can make assumptions and treat it like fact (as Blob likes to do), but when it comes down to it, we really can't fault anyone for what they think is the best course of action because it could be the right move based on the answer to above questions.

    I have fun going down the multiple paths and basically creating contingency plans, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I know exactly what the Kings should do with so many things up in the air.

    EDIT: I will say that trading for youth does seem like a decent option no matter what the answers to those questions are.
    • If Gay/Collison are wanting to leave, we have very little hope at putting a solid team around Cousins next season (in his contract year) because (right now) we're not an attractive destination for FAs, so we'd really be bleeding talent.
    • If they would be open to staying, there's still no guarantee that we'd be able to add more/enough talent (even with a Cousins) extension) to ever become a top team in our conference.
    • That same sentiment goes with adding youth/picks as there is no guarantee we'll get a star or great player to elevate this team's talent level enough.
    • However, if we do fall short at finding another star through the draft, those pieces are at least young, on a rookie contract, and could still (possibly) develop into solid players in time, and having those young players is good when we'd move Cousins and start rebuilding.
    I'd need to have a serious talk with Cousins about the state of the team and his thoughts. I'd probably discuss how far he thinks this team can go with the current core, and what his thoughts are if the team were to try and cash in and add some more potential through young assets & picks. Depending on his answer and the current state of the team, these would be my actions:
    • If Cousins is not feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd likely leave AND we are not looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd trade Cousins & all of our vets for youth & picks and tank the rest of the year to keep our 2017 pick.
    • If Cousins is not feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd likely leave AND we are looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd talk with Gay & Collison to see if they are open to resigning. If they are open to it, I'd continue with the current team as constructed and look to make improvements through trade (either at the deadline or offseason) or through FA next year.
    • If Cousins is not feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd likely leave AND we are looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd talk with Gay & Collison to see if they are open to resigning. If they are not open to it, I'd trade Cousins & all of our vets for youth & picks and tank the rest of the year to keep our 2017 pick.
    • If Cousins is feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd be open to trying to build a better team through youth & picks AND we are not looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd trade any of our vets (except Cousins) for youth & picks and tank the rest of the year to keep our 2017 pick.
    • If Cousins is feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd be open to trying to build a better team through youth & picks AND we are looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd talk with Gay & Collison to see if they are open to resigning. If they are not open to it, I'd trade any of our vets (except Cousins) for youth & picks and tank the rest of the year to keep our 2017 pick.
    • If Cousins is feeling the youth movement/would say that he'd be open to trying to build a better team through youth & picks AND we are looking like a competitive/playoff team, I'd talk with Gay & Collison to see if they are open to resigning. If they are open to it, I'd continue with the current team as constructed and look to make improvements through trade (either at the deadline or offseason) or through FA next year while being open to add youth/potential where I can.
    If it does come down to moving our vets for youth (with Cousins on board with the plan & willing to build the team this way), I'd probably make the following trades:
    • Gay, Collison, & McLemore for Bobby Portis, Jerian Grant, Rajon Rondo, & Chicago's 2017 1st (Kings get 3 young assets in Portis, Grant, & a 2017 pick while Chicago gets an excellent PG complement to Wade & Butler in Collison while also getting a super sixth man option who can play smallball PF next to Wade & Butler in Gay. McLemore gives them more SG depth rather than having to rely on Valentine in case of injuries or foul trouble)
    • Casspi for Delon Wright (Kings get a young PG who showed well last year and Toronto gets a useful SF/PF who can help space the floor for guys like Lowry, DeRozan, & Valanciunas all while giving up a guy out of their rotation)
    • Koufos for Tyler Zeller & Rade Zagorac (Kings get out of Koufos long term salary & pick up a euro SF prospect and Boston gets a big defensive C that can help with their rebounding issues and possibly push Horford to PF in the starting lineup)
    Those trades would leave us with this roster next year if we waive Afflalo & Tolliver and Barnes picks up his option:

    PG - Wright / Grant
    SG - Temple / Bogdanovic / Richardson
    SF - Barnes / Zagorac
    PF - Portis / Labissiere
    C - Cousins / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis

    *SAC 2017 1st
    *CHI 2017 1st
    **~$49 mil in cap space (doesn't include 2017 1st round pick draft holds or Bogdanovic's & Zagorac's future contract)

    I'd probably throw a pretty hefty offer sheet at Otto Porter next year to lock in our SF next to Cousins. Then it's a matter of developing our PGs (Fultz/Ball/Smith/Fox/Ntilikina, Wright, Grant), wings (Portis, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Zagorac), & big men (Portis, Cauley-Stein, Labissiere, Papagiannis) around Cousins.

    If Cousins signed an extension with all of that youth, potential, & cap space around him, I'd be pretty darn excited about our future. Fox/Richardson/Porter/Labissiere/Cousins w/ a bench of Wright/Bogdanovic/Portis/Cauley-Stein could be a very, very talented team.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  27. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    Allowing that Vlade was a great FA signing for us (because he was), that's once in 30 years which isn't very comforting. He was undervalued at the time because he was entering his 30s, wasn't an intimidating physical presence, and didn't have a reputation as a great defender. It's probably fair to say that Adelman's system got more out of him than any other team would have. That's lightning in a bottle stuff... great when it happens but very hard to recreate.

    You're saying that we'll be a FA draw in a couple seasons because, why exactly? Coach Joerger? Golden 1 Center? The players we have now are begging to be let go at an alarming rate. Trying to look at the situation objectively, it's more likely to me that we continue to exist as basketball purgatory in the minds of most NBA players. I've been to see the new arena and development downtown. It looks great and there is potential for positive change there but we're talking over a period of 10 years here for word to get out that Sacramento isn't a backwater anymore. Even if reality changes overnight, perception takes time to catch up.

    And you pointed out the exact reason why I'm so pessimistic in your comments here. Too many variables are outside of team control. Will Rudy have a change of heart and continue to play at All-Star level after signing his next contact? Will Darren Collison re-sign for a price that makes sense or will he take a look at Mike Conley's contract and a rising cap situation and cash in for $15 million or more per year wherever he can get it? Is DeMarcus willing to put up with another 3-5 years of rebuilding while he ages past his basketball prime? A certain degree of uncertainty is unavoidable but we're way beyond acceptable levels. It's the basketball equivalent of paddling our way into rocky waters without a map. Pointing out the danger ahead is not the same thing as panicking and calling it quits. What I want to see is some risk mitigation. Sitting here and hoping for the best is one strategy but generally speaking you usually have to do something to earn success. I'd like to see management commit to a core group of players and lock them in with guaranteed contracts. As much as people talk up flexibility and lack of burdensome contracts as a plus, sitting around and hoping all these players won't ditch us at the altar just doesn't meet my criteria of a plan. I could never get used to that strategy. I'd even take some talent drop-off in return for longterm control and projectable improvement.

    But my big point right now is that small markets are never competitive in the Free Agency market. We will never be on the preferred destination list of the next Lebron or Kevin Durant. We can't compete on that level so we need to do something else and I think that something else probably needs to be identifying and buying low on young talent with potential and (here's the kicker) actually developing it. And in that respect, I'm far more interested in what's happening in Reno this season than what's happening with the (most likely) soon to be ex-Kings playing in Sacramento.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  28. KingsFan80

    KingsFan80 Guest

    I have no idea why they don't bring up Malachi and let him play. He can't be worse than the SG we have now.
  29. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I think Malachi would get torched on defense right now and he would be relegated to basically strictly a spot up shooter. I'd like to see him work on driving to the basket because at the moment his drives look very unathletic. I don't see anything wrong with letting him develop in Reno. No reason to bring him up too early and no reason to play him out of position.
  30. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Pretty simple really. The coach. The arena. The culture change. The playoff visists. These all are attractive to FAs.

    And I think a lot of this goes along with why I said moving these vets for young talent is an approach that is a viable approach across the many different scenarios. Although a lot of the variables are technically out of a team's control, that's not to say you don't have calculated risk. An 80% chance of Gay leaving is much different than a 20% change of Gay leaving. Sometimes you have to weigh the odds. The youth you move for Gay also has a risk. Whether you hit on the player you acquired, how good they actually becomes, and how quickly they become the player they will eventually become. Is an 80% chance of keeping Gay & a 20% chance of losing Gay better than a 30% chance the player you drafted becomes as good as Gay & a 70% chance of that player becoming at least a rotational player? Once again, not everything is absolute. There are risks to any path we choose. The answer to which path we take will ultimately be decided by the FO's assessment of % chance Cousins leaves if we go young, % chance Gay will resign, % chance Collison will resign, etc.

    You do make a very good point about moving on from Cousins completely whether we're competitive or not this year, and I agree with you to a certain extent. I personally think that Cousins will be able to play at a high level until he is 32/33 (barring injuries). That gives us 6-7 more seasons (if he chooses to stay that long with us). The majority of these kids we're bringing in will be 23-28 by that time. If we're hoping that our 2017 draft pick turns into a star, we're looking at him being 25-27 by the time Cousins is 33 depending on who we take, Papagiannis would be 26, Labissiere would be 27, Richardson would be 28, B. Portis would be 28, Cauley-Stein would be 30, Bogdanovic would be 31, D. Wright would be 31, & J. Grant would be 31. That doesn't seem that bad. However, a lot of these guys would be on the front end of their primes with our best players just about to exit his prime. So what are we really looking at here? Maybe a season or two where we might have a shot at contending?

    The alternative would be to cash in on Cousins immediately to try and land a piece that can be a possible franchise cornerstone who will enter his prime when a lot of the other players do. I think Wiggins, J. Parker, & M. Turner could be some options. I like the idea of making a Cousins/Casspi/Bogdanovic for Wiggins/Dunn/Pekovic trade while taking another potential star with our 2017 pick (focus on a SG/SF and roll with a Dunn/Wiggins/???/Labissiere/Cauley-Stein starting lineup going forward with J. Grant, M. Richardson, Zagorac, B. Portis, & Papagiannis as the bench.

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