I was seriously rooting for Jimmer out there. I really want him to succeed, but he was pretty horrible in the 2nd half against the pacer's D. I think it had more to do with Malone with Malone sitting the bench way too long. He should've put them back in when our 1st unit was clearly struggling and losing the lead.
[Game] Kings v. Pacers 1/24/14, 7pm PST, 10pm EST
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
- Status
IT played a great game, for the most part, but fell into the trap he often falls into once he hits a few clutch shots and that is playing out of control. He has an assertive, winners mentality, no doubt, and is fearless --which, right now, is both a blessing and a curse. When he takes shots in rhythm and under control, he's great. When he tries to force up off balance shots in traffic, he's a mixed bag. Tonight, after hitting a couple shots in OT, he then took 2 horrible off balance shots he had no business taking. My criticism with him tonight is, he never looked to share any shots with Thornton late in the 4th and in OT.
Thornton got ONE shot in OT. ONE. And he was the hottest, most consistent offensive threat the Kings had all game. While IT was right to look for his own shots, he needed to mix it up by looking to keep Thornton involved. He didn't do that.
Also, I blame Coach Malone for not calling a few more plays for Thornton, especially early in the game when it was obvious the guy couldn't miss. I would have kept feeding the guy the ball until he missed a shot or two. Nobody else should have taken a shot unless it was a wide open layup. Thornton was that hot.
Late in the game, Marcus went a little cold, but after he hit the three early in OT, Malone and IT should have made an effort to get him a few more looks. The only time it was attempted, Aaron Gray couldn't make a simple pass out on the wing and basically handed the ball to the defender.
Lastly, oddly, the one time IT should have got the ball the last 2 minutes he didn't get it. Derrick Williams stole the ball and had Thomas WIDE OPEN for the game tying 3 but, instead, decided to drive to basket with 3 defenders camped under neath the hoop.
In the end, the game shouldn't have even come down to OT. That 4-point play just can't happen. While it was a bad call (foul was on the floor), Williams simply has to know not to be close enough to even give the ref a chance to call a foul. You're up by 4 with under 20 seconds remaining. If they hit an open 25-foot 3, you live with it and go make your FT's on the other end. Inexcusable.
Thornton got ONE shot in OT. ONE. And he was the hottest, most consistent offensive threat the Kings had all game. While IT was right to look for his own shots, he needed to mix it up by looking to keep Thornton involved. He didn't do that.
Also, I blame Coach Malone for not calling a few more plays for Thornton, especially early in the game when it was obvious the guy couldn't miss. I would have kept feeding the guy the ball until he missed a shot or two. Nobody else should have taken a shot unless it was a wide open layup. Thornton was that hot.
Late in the game, Marcus went a little cold, but after he hit the three early in OT, Malone and IT should have made an effort to get him a few more looks. The only time it was attempted, Aaron Gray couldn't make a simple pass out on the wing and basically handed the ball to the defender.
Lastly, oddly, the one time IT should have got the ball the last 2 minutes he didn't get it. Derrick Williams stole the ball and had Thomas WIDE OPEN for the game tying 3 but, instead, decided to drive to basket with 3 defenders camped under neath the hoop.
In the end, the game shouldn't have even come down to OT. That 4-point play just can't happen. While it was a bad call (foul was on the floor), Williams simply has to know not to be close enough to even give the ref a chance to call a foul. You're up by 4 with under 20 seconds remaining. If they hit an open 25-foot 3, you live with it and go make your FT's on the other end. Inexcusable.
Yet, with the role players playing poorly we were still right there at the end, then IT got greedy, his execution was poor and we blew the game in crunch time. We didn't lose this due to the role players. We lost this due mostly to poor late game execution, for the 3rd time in 6 games. At the end of a close game when your "star" has the ball, you don't get to blame the role players for what they previously did as they have nothing to do with IT's late game decision making. And while you keep pointing out the role players, you also keep ignoring IT had a very hot MT next to him whom he completely ignored down the stretch.
But yes, let's ignore that and talk about role players, right?
But yes, let's ignore that and talk about role players, right?
Probably wide open? There is nothing to back up your claim. I'm all for feeding your big man the ball, but when it's a big man who lacks offense, doesn't that worry you a little bit? Gray can't over power West nor Hibbert in the paint as compared to Drummond who is a horrid offensive player. The difference is that Drummond would be able to create some spacing against them vs Gray who had none tonight. Landry is just straight out rusty.. If only we had better players. Gray is at best a 2-5min player. His only specialty would be mediore rebounding and decent screens. If only we had better players.. but we're stuck with Gray who shouldn't even be a rotational player and Landry who's coming off of an injury.
I apparently drove at least one person away tonight asking for people to be a little more fair about IT, so I think I can jump in here...
I think Bricklayer is entirely correct about IT's performance down the stretch. As much as I want to defend him, IT just got it into his head he and he alone would be able to win the game and it cost us the game.
I love his heart and hustle, and nobody can fault his energy. But there are times when he just doesn't think. I hope he will learn from these times.
I think Bricklayer is entirely correct about IT's performance down the stretch. As much as I want to defend him, IT just got it into his head he and he alone would be able to win the game and it cost us the game.
I love his heart and hustle, and nobody can fault his energy. But there are times when he just doesn't think. I hope he will learn from these times.
Well when a roleplayer fouls a 3pt shooter when your up 4 pts with 20 seconds left, yeah i think its worth it to talk about roleplayers. Even if George hits that 3, your still up 1 and at that point you take your free throws, and IT was perfect from the line tonight. From there you don't even let Indiana shoot a 3, just foul them and make it a free throw contest. This game was lost in the the 4th quarter, even the shot at the end of regulation was a good shot, pull up midrange jumpshot, a shot IT makes 7 times out of 10. Yes IT didn't have a good OT, but it should have never gotten there to begin with.
Did you look at the shot chart? Gray and Williams weren't missing layups and dunks, they were missing jumpers. That's on the coach, and the point guard. It's the point guard's job to get his teammates going. The simplest way to do that would be to get them easy baskets, i.e., layups and dunks.
Either Thomas or Thornton was facing a double down the stretch. Simple mathematics tells you that somebody had to be open. If it wasn't Gray, then the ball should have found whomever it actually was.
Don't distort my argument: I didn't say **** about "feeding" Gray the ball. Getting Gray a post-up would be feeding him the ball, getting him an iso would be feeding him the ball. I am not in favor of either one of those things. Running a pick-and-roll every other decade is not feeding him the ball. Getting Williams a layup on a backdoor cut is not feeding him the ball.
Either Thomas or Thornton was facing a double down the stretch. Simple mathematics tells you that somebody had to be open. If it wasn't Gray, then the ball should have found whomever it actually was.
Don't distort my argument: I didn't say **** about "feeding" Gray the ball. Getting Gray a post-up would be feeding him the ball, getting him an iso would be feeding him the ball. I am not in favor of either one of those things. Running a pick-and-roll every other decade is not feeding him the ball. Getting Williams a layup on a backdoor cut is not feeding him the ball.
Yes, and unless I'm in an alternate universe the refs called Williams fouling George on a 3pt shot, it should have been on the floor, but you don't take that risk when a player is getting ready to shoot(especially up 4). Don't leave it up to the refs. Period. Especially in the NBA.
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to be clear, it was a terrible call by the Refs.
Williams clearly fouled George prior to the shot, and it wasn't even a close thing. Williams grabbed George, then George finished turning the corner, then George jumped into his shot.
It should have been a foul on the floor with 2 FTs going to George. Instead they call continuation on a shot when the foul happens before the player even finishes turning the corner around the screen.
Indefensible whistle continuation by the Refs, and the Kings organization have every right to ask the FO why that Ref decided to cost them the game.
So DWill didn't do anything incorrect, as sending George to the FT line rather than giving him the open 3pt shot is the right move...unless the Refs decide otherwise.
Williams clearly fouled George prior to the shot, and it wasn't even a close thing. Williams grabbed George, then George finished turning the corner, then George jumped into his shot.
It should have been a foul on the floor with 2 FTs going to George. Instead they call continuation on a shot when the foul happens before the player even finishes turning the corner around the screen.
Indefensible whistle continuation by the Refs, and the Kings organization have every right to ask the FO why that Ref decided to cost them the game.
So DWill didn't do anything incorrect, as sending George to the FT line rather than giving him the open 3pt shot is the right move...unless the Refs decide otherwise.
You're talking about giving Gray the ball. You've said it many times up there. I don't know how to quote **** so I won't. Come on.. coach designed plays specifically for IT down the stretch. They had IT trapped.. don't you remember the play where Gray passed the ball back to IT near the sideline and the hoop? They trapped him and he had nowhere to go because it was a bad pass and decision by Gray. It forced IT to call a timeout where I think the next play, Coach designed a play for IT.
I don't think IT is top 10PG in any way, but he's a scoring pg. Tell me how many assists Damian Lillard has? Tell me how many times he actually gives his bigs and teammates good shots? Not quite often, yet he's considered top 10PG. I always get on IT's ass, but you can't this time. No one else on the team was contributing. Do you honestly trust D-Will or Gray attempting a game winning layup/dunk against the best defensive paint in the NBA? There were many blocked shots tonight, I think most came against IT which were purely his fault for stupid decision making.
I don't think IT is top 10PG in any way, but he's a scoring pg. Tell me how many assists Damian Lillard has? Tell me how many times he actually gives his bigs and teammates good shots? Not quite often, yet he's considered top 10PG. I always get on IT's ass, but you can't this time. No one else on the team was contributing. Do you honestly trust D-Will or Gray attempting a game winning layup/dunk against the best defensive paint in the NBA? There were many blocked shots tonight, I think most came against IT which were purely his fault for stupid decision making.
If the plan was to foul, than you smother him and don't even let him put a shot up, instead it was a weak grab and you let the ref make the decision on continuation, the superstar gets the call. If Williams felt he was beat from the screen you concede the shot and go to the other end and hit your free throws.
How do you not understand that there is a qualitative difference between giving Gray the ball, and giving Gray the ball?
Are you, in addition to your other concept errors, under the mistaken impression that I don't think the coach was at fault?
Do you know what you're supposed to do when the trap comes? Rotate the ball!
Portland isn't running the same sets we're running. Portland is getting it done like we did during the Glory Years, with three guys averaging four+ assists. Lillard is not going to be anywhere near the top of the assists leaderboard in Stotts' system, but he is a significantly superior point guard. He knows how to get the ball to his meal ticket (Aldridge), and he knows how to find the hot hand, two things that Thomas has yet to demonstrate with anything resembling consistency.
Are you, in addition to your other concept errors, under the mistaken impression that I don't think the coach was at fault?
Do you know what you're supposed to do when the trap comes? Rotate the ball!
Portland isn't running the same sets we're running. Portland is getting it done like we did during the Glory Years, with three guys averaging four+ assists. Lillard is not going to be anywhere near the top of the assists leaderboard in Stotts' system, but he is a significantly superior point guard. He knows how to get the ball to his meal ticket (Aldridge), and he knows how to find the hot hand, two things that Thomas has yet to demonstrate with anything resembling consistency.
Let me get this straight, you put most blame on IT for the lost tonight?
I'm pretty sure IT always feeds DMC the ball(meal ticket). I don't think IT has good passing abilities, but you can't say he hasn't demonstrated that he can get the ball to Cousins and Gay on a consistent basis. Lillard is a good scoring pg on a good overall team. He's the type of player that makes his team look better, while his team makes him look better. Batum accepts a smaller role for the benefit of Lillard while contributing more on everything else. Lillard isn't as a great of a pg everyone makes him out to be. If he was on the Kings, everyone would think he's a ballhog with low assist numbers.
Tonight I think Thomas looked for his shot way too much in this game, but I think he pretty much had to when there was no other offense coming in from that starting lineup other than Thornton. There were many times where they had a defender locked onto Thornton and he had nowhere else to go. He tried getting other guys into it, but clearly Malone wanted IT taking most of the shots.
This lost was not on IT tonight. There's no reason why he can't be a starting pg for our team unless we get a better pg...
I'm pretty sure IT always feeds DMC the ball(meal ticket). I don't think IT has good passing abilities, but you can't say he hasn't demonstrated that he can get the ball to Cousins and Gay on a consistent basis. Lillard is a good scoring pg on a good overall team. He's the type of player that makes his team look better, while his team makes him look better. Batum accepts a smaller role for the benefit of Lillard while contributing more on everything else. Lillard isn't as a great of a pg everyone makes him out to be. If he was on the Kings, everyone would think he's a ballhog with low assist numbers.
Tonight I think Thomas looked for his shot way too much in this game, but I think he pretty much had to when there was no other offense coming in from that starting lineup other than Thornton. There were many times where they had a defender locked onto Thornton and he had nowhere else to go. He tried getting other guys into it, but clearly Malone wanted IT taking most of the shots.
This lost was not on IT tonight. There's no reason why he can't be a starting pg for our team unless we get a better pg...
I put most of the blame on Thomas for not getting his teammates involved. I did not say that I thought that, in and of itself, was why we lost. With that being said, an alarming number of the mistakes we made down the stretch can be directly traced back to Thomas.
And you would be wrong. stats.nba.com is quite informative as to how few percentage of Cousins' baskets come on passes from Thomas. They have video, even.
Actually, yes, I can. And, when it comes to Cousins, I'd be right. Although he is much better and finding Gay than he is at finding Cousins. This is mostly because he gets the preponderance of his assists either in transition, or on the drive and kick, which is not where Cousins does most of his scoring from, nor should he. Thomas may, in fact, be the worst player on the entire team at making entry passes into the post. Since Vasquez and Salmons were traded, Cousins has mostly relied upon Gay, Thompson and Thornton to get him the ball.
And you would be wrong. stats.nba.com is quite informative as to how few percentage of Cousins' baskets come on passes from Thomas. They have video, even.
Actually, yes, I can. And, when it comes to Cousins, I'd be right. Although he is much better and finding Gay than he is at finding Cousins. This is mostly because he gets the preponderance of his assists either in transition, or on the drive and kick, which is not where Cousins does most of his scoring from, nor should he. Thomas may, in fact, be the worst player on the entire team at making entry passes into the post. Since Vasquez and Salmons were traded, Cousins has mostly relied upon Gay, Thompson and Thornton to get him the ball.
To be fair, he helped get Thornton involved and made a few good passes to him. You can blame a lot on IT, but it doesn't really excuse why everyone else in the lineup(not including thornton)shot for 3/20 fgs and made 5/11 FTs. Take out IT and Thornton, the rest of the team made 10/43. What about the mistake of D-Will fouling George on the 3pt attempt? Arguable, but it's not acceptable he even let him shoot from there. I'd usually complain about reffing, but that play is all on D-Will. Then in OT, don't forget Gray making that soft pass to Thornton which resulted in a TO and score. The play after, Gray wasn't able to catch a perfect ball from D-Will that could have given him an easy dunk...instead they fouled him and he made 1/2, but we were still down 3pts. Then a little later, down 3, William steals the ball but decides it would be the best thing to go charge against 3-4 pacers in the Paint with a wide open IT behind the arc and no kings player anywhere near him.
Those mistakes aren't linked to IT. I think he could have gave them easier shots, but D-Will and Landry missed their wide open shots set up by teammates. I also have a q, if Thornton is hot all game, why not continue to let him shoot?
I always assumed IT was the one leading in Cuz's assisted points, but he's shown that he can give the hot hand the ball. Some of DMC's baskets don't count an assist for his teammates because he'll occasionally post up, back his defender down, dribble, then take the shot.
IT didn't lose this game for us. If the other players showed up, then it shouldn't have come down to a last minute shot. The kings scored 37 in the 1st quarter, that was all Thornton with 22pts and IT closing the run. I think the blame should be equally distributed throughout the team. It reminds me of the 49er game. People wanted to blame Kaepernick, and some didn't. It was the entire offense's fault why we lost. We had no run game, OL struggled a bit, there were multiple drops in the WR core, and Kaep had costly TOs. I don't think we should be upset at this lost.. Pacers are the best defensive team and to think we almost pulled it off without Gay and Cuz says something.
Those mistakes aren't linked to IT. I think he could have gave them easier shots, but D-Will and Landry missed their wide open shots set up by teammates. I also have a q, if Thornton is hot all game, why not continue to let him shoot?
I always assumed IT was the one leading in Cuz's assisted points, but he's shown that he can give the hot hand the ball. Some of DMC's baskets don't count an assist for his teammates because he'll occasionally post up, back his defender down, dribble, then take the shot.
IT didn't lose this game for us. If the other players showed up, then it shouldn't have come down to a last minute shot. The kings scored 37 in the 1st quarter, that was all Thornton with 22pts and IT closing the run. I think the blame should be equally distributed throughout the team. It reminds me of the 49er game. People wanted to blame Kaepernick, and some didn't. It was the entire offense's fault why we lost. We had no run game, OL struggled a bit, there were multiple drops in the WR core, and Kaep had costly TOs. I don't think we should be upset at this lost.. Pacers are the best defensive team and to think we almost pulled it off without Gay and Cuz says something.
Although it does say a lot about your point guard when 8 of his teammates only get a whopping 20 shots while he puts up a stunning 31 shots (only 4 less than Carmelo used to get to 63 points) and almost gives up a triple-double to George Hill (who was responsible for a couple of backbreakers early in OT and isn't exactly Chris Paul).
You can say that IT kept us in the game but at the same time he also kept us from winning with the recurring issue of bad clock management and tunnel vision so narrow-sighted that you'd think he was driving from Honshu to Hokkaido (google it people).
IT giveth and IT taketh away. Unfortunately for us, IT is doing a lot of his takething when the game matters the most.
You can say that IT kept us in the game but at the same time he also kept us from winning with the recurring issue of bad clock management and tunnel vision so narrow-sighted that you'd think he was driving from Honshu to Hokkaido (google it people).
IT giveth and IT taketh away. Unfortunately for us, IT is doing a lot of his takething when the game matters the most.
For all the "Who is he supposed to pass to?" endless idiotic painful stupid moronic comments that reveal a level of idiocy you only find on the internet, how about the open man? How about that? Just try it. You'll get these things called assists.
Here's a quote from a real PG I noticed the other day. John Wall: "When asked about his triple-double, Wall gave his best McKayla Maroney impression and said, "That don’t mean nothing. I didn’t move the ball like we’re supposed to in the first half and only had [seven] assists at halftime and nine turnovers. That’s not the way to lead your team."
Ahem.
Here's a quote from a real PG I noticed the other day. John Wall: "When asked about his triple-double, Wall gave his best McKayla Maroney impression and said, "That don’t mean nothing. I didn’t move the ball like we’re supposed to in the first half and only had [seven] assists at halftime and nine turnovers. That’s not the way to lead your team."
Ahem.
- Status